Bogus cars, clones, and outright fraud??

[Ghoste]

The thread about JJ 70 Daytona conversion has me wondering here a bit.  It seems like most feel that car should stay the way it is because it's history has always been as that car from day two.  Others would happily put Ricks 440 in their 500 even though it doesn't completely match their car just because it has the treasured XX.  At the same time most of us were offended that Redneck Mopar Magazine, I mean Mopar Collectors Guide wanted Corndogs boss to leave his Superbird in wierd paint scheme it wore for several years.
So how much change do we find okay and what is truly reprehensible or is each situation unique?

[tan top]

dealer add ons   & to a certain extent wild far  out back in the day paint jobs  , but would sooner the car  looking original  paint wise  ...........   

[PocketThunder]

I think its pretty one sided.  The first two are a 

[Ghoste]

They are in my opinion too but I almost detect a certain wink-wink, nudge-nudge sort of tolerance out there.  The hobby is stuffed to bursting with the rebodies and restamps so aside from the folks who just don't know, ther are still a tremendous number of folks who see no issue with it.  The debate has come up on the site quite a few times with people defending it.  There have been some nasty debates on Moparts over it so clearly there are some who see no problem with it.  The JJ 70 car has come up so much that if I had the money I would be EXTREMELY tempted to return that car to stock.  On the other hand, after doing the bodywork I would have likely tried to duplicate the paint on the Corndog bird.

[pettybird]

the last two are kind of no brainers that they're OK--most of that stuff was done so long ago they're examples of bygone times in car culture history. 


I'm OK with all four of them (although the first is odd) if you offer up FULL DISCLOSURE and are doing it for personal reasons and not profit.  Doug S. made the point that, at some point in the future, someone will almost certainly try to make a buck off of a car by representing a car for something it isn't, and whether or not a redone car is known at the time of that future transaction can't be accounted for. 

I think I'm more OK with it than most as we simply don't sell anything here.  I can't even bring myself to dumping my old 5 liter mustang despite having another to replace it. 

[Old Moparz]

I think its pretty one sided.  The first two are a 

Same here.

One thing I would never have a problem with, is having a state issued VIN on any car I owned. A state VIN is legal, risk free of a possible future ownership issues, & allows the car to still be the same car. What would be so bad about having a car like a Hemi Daytona, or a Hemi ragtop with a state VIN?

[charger500440]

My take on this is a simple one. A few years ago an old-timer was talking about his vintage car. It was a Bugati or something similar. He said something at the time I had never thought of. He said "I don't own this rare car at all, I am just it's caretaker. I have been the car's caretaker and when I am gone, someone else will assume that role." That is how I look at these situations. If I have a rare XX29J car, documented, restored, perfect in every way, I only have it while I am alive. Eventually, it will out live me. My point is that you can do whatever to the vehicle but don't misrepresent it. I personally don't care too much for customizing, retro-modding or any other individualizing of a cool car. Re-bodying, not cool. My two pennies...

Mike

[Aero426]

My take on this is a simple one. A few years ago an old-timer was talking about his vintage car. It was a Bugati or something similar. He said something at the time I had never thought of. He said "I don't own this rare car at all, I am just it's caretaker. I have been the car's caretaker and when I am gone, someone else will assume that role." That is how I look at these situations. If I have a rare XX29J car, documented, restored, perfect in every way, I only have it while I am alive. Eventually, it will out live me. My point is that you can do whatever to the vehicle but don't misrepresent it. I personally don't care too much for customizing, retro-modding or any other individualizing of a cool car. Re-bodying, not cool. My two pennies...

Mike

I personally agree with the old timer and the "caretaker" role on a rare or unusual car.  The other side of the argument is the "It's your car, do what you want" crowd.  I can also agree and understand that to a point.  It all depends on the car.   However, you do not want to do a rare or valuable car a disservice by modifications that are hard to reverse.    When you own a special car, you need to apply a little forward thinking.

[Aero426]

What would be so bad about having a car like a Hemi Daytona, or a Hemi ragtop with a state VIN?

In the world of competitive collecting,  cars like these have become trophy wives with all the cattiness that goes along with.   

In regard to a state VIN, it's a story that has to be explained.   It's an asterisk next to the car that will never go away.    It's a bit tarnished, less than perfect.   It's a "yeah it's real, but..."

As far as owning such a car, think of a scratch and dent rack in the back of a very exclusive store.  You can get tremendous value if you are willing to ignore the snickering and raised eyebrows from others who are proud of buying off the front display. 

[nascarxx29]

Here is a fake

[tan top]

Here is a fake

sequence number too low for a daytona   

[nascarxx29]

Exactly

[hotrod98]

I've said for many years that we are all just temporary caretakers. Can't take them with us.
As for the clones, I own both "real" cars and clones and I tend to drive my clones a lot more than my "real" cars. I like the look of the Cuda so I converted a couple of my Barracudas to Cudas. I did it for me...no one else and I readily tell people that they're fakes, most of the time before they even ask.
I like all of my cars regardless of their pedigree. Just becaues it's a clone, it doesn't keep people from almost running off of the road trying to get a better look.
The only problem I have is with the crooks that just want to make a buck at someone else's expense. They have no conscience.

[69charger2002]

agreed. cloning is fine, rebodying is an absolute no no. good/honest(if that's possible) intentions are ok for that first owner when they rebody one, but subsequent owners seem to start fudging details or leaving certain aspects off the car completely. before you know it the car appears legit 4-5 owners down the road. and let's face it, we've seen it 100 times, once these cars get into a certain price class, they tend to become investment objects more than driven muscle cars.. so the flip owners much more frequently.. that's why i love clones! i have real R/T's and cloned ones, and i drive the balls off my R/T clones
trav

[69_500]

Only thing with the car you listed as being Fake Dave, is that I believe it to be a real C500. Its not the aero car they represented it to be, but its still an aero car. Just my 

I don't think that rebodies are ever right though.

[nascarxx29]

Ok lets see say its not a all out fake or totally bogus .But well mispresented as a daytona

[C_stripes]

I am more of the guy that says "it's your car, do what you want." But there are also cars out there that that should not be the case. For instance. My plans for my Numbers matching 340 Duster are to upgrade the suspension and braking system. I want 4 wheel disks, Dana 60, sub-frame connectors, and 16-18" wheels. I want white leather interior with B blue piping and black carpets. So it will have just a little different look. The 340 will be sitting on an engine stand and I will have a built 360. The one thing that I will do is make it so that nothing is permanent. If I sell it, Tufcat will be able to but it back100% stock. I haven't forgot that you want it Tufcat  . On the other hand. You have the cars like my friends 70 Road Runner AD car. That car needs to be put 100% stock. I am not a  fan of trailer queens, but in the case of cars like that. I find it exceptable. The thing on that car is that it served double for plymouth. It was Yellow in the ad and lime light in the promo video. What should you go with? It's going yellow as that's what the fender tag says.

Re-bodies;
Here's a scenario. You find a EV2 70 R code HEMI 4spd charger R/T with factory Go wing and power windows with heater delete in a farmers field. The car was rolled over back in '72. You talk to the farmer and he has the numbers matching HEMI and 4dpd as well as the Dana 60 and seats in the barn. Have not been touched since about '75. Between the rollover and sitting in the flood arrogated field, the ONLY use able sheet metal is the firewall and driver side inner fender well. The rest is either rusted or badly damaged. The farmer tells you that you can have it all for $3k. You give him the money and he gives you the orig title, window sticker, sales agreement and a paper that he found in the back of the seat(build sheet). So you have all of the orig paperwork on a numbers matching low mile 70 HEMI R/T. So you get it home and start the resto. You buy all sorts of cool AMD sheet metal. You part out that 70 charger 318 car you had and use the front clip and the roof. You put the car all back together and the ONLY orig sheet metal to the HEMI car is the firewall and driver inner fender. You also managed to save the trunk lip and the core support with extensive work.   

Okay. You didn't just re badge your 318 car like you could have, but there is VERY little that was on the charger originally. How is that NOT a re-body?

I am not saying that it is wrong to restore a car correctly and I am not saying that its right to buy a 318 charger and just add the HEMI car stuff. But in all actuality, The resulting product is the same. 

As for Clones. They definitely have their pluses. Like you dare to drive them like they were intended.

[Troy]

C_stripes:
First, you're in the Aero section so I think the $$$ we're talking about here is a bit different between a Duster and, say, a Hemi Daytona. The rarity may be there but no one is going out of their way to clone 340 Dusters. By the same token, not too many people really care if you modify a less expensive car. That's just the way it goes I guess.

Second: in your scenario, which one is illegal? There's your answer. One might be an easier route but that doesn't make it all right (especially not in the eyes of the law). A rebody is swapping tags and identification marks to a different car - NOT sheet metal replacement. It's all spelled out nice and neat in the laws of all 50 states.

It's all about money. I don't believe anyone who says they rebodied a car to "save" a piece of history. One of the cars was good enough to use so why didn't they "save" that one? It's because the other would easily double or triple the value when it comes time to sell.

Here in Ohio you can use parts of multiple cars to build one car. You have to document all the parts and any identifying numbers on them but, in the end, you have a legal, registered vehicle. Why doesn't anyone do this? Money. The paper trail documenting what was done would impact the resale value of the car. It's much easier to build the car in whatever means possible (without prying eyes) and then register it like it's been off the road for a long time. I can go through Craigslist any day and find parts with VIN stampings, VIN tags, engines, etc. - sometimes with matching titles - all advertised as "make your own...". I bought a bunch of 69 Charger parts once and was offered the VIN, title and numbers matching engine to the wrecked R/T that they came off of. More recently I had an engine builder brag that he could put any numbers that I wanted on my engine to "match anything you have". In neither case did I ask - the information was volunteered. I believe it's a lot more common than many people think.

Troy

[C_stripes]

I was just stating that I believe that if its your car, do what you want. I know that my Duster isn't a valuable car. But it is still a numbers matching car.
The same goes for a Daytona, Super Bird, 500, HEMI cuda, and any other car. If its yours, do what you want. If it has some historical significances. Try to build correctly. What fun is it to go to a car show and see 30 red cudas.

As far as rebodys, I am NOT for them. I know they are iliagal and its just fraud. But in all actuality. Its kind of the same thing. One is right and one is wrong. I know a guy that is doing a re-body on a 71 GTX and I promiss that as soon as I get the vin, I will post it as a fraud. But it is a fine line what is rebody and whats not.  So in the scenario that I gave. Lets say that you take that nice rust free 318 charger. Cut the front end off, put the HEMI charger firewall and inner fender on the 318 car and put it back together. Basically you did the same exact thing as you would have to rebuild around the firewall but it is now considered a rebody because you didn't build around the firewall which was the only good metal. I guess I am just trying to figure out where the fine line is before you have a re body or a resto.

I am not trying to cause problems, just stating my  .

Jeremy

[WingCharger]

I believe the last two are perfect. Leave these vehicles as a window to the past, a lost period in the history of MoPar and NASCAR.

I agree with C_Stripes that certain things could be counted as a re-body, and some might not. As for rebodies, I have an opinion, but I don't think I will share it.

The first option is wrong. Just wrong. When somebody does this, scams and disappointment are all that come from restamped drivetrains. I would love to see somebody restamp a trunk 440 to put into a non-numbers matching Coronet or Super Bee, and then the motor turn up.

Wing

[Troy]

No Jeremy, in the eyes of the law it isn't the same thing. Physically you are cutting and welding sheet metal so in that respect it's the "same". Legally, in one case you are repairing a car and in the other you are committing fraud (specifically removing/altering identifying marks). Sure, the argument remains that less is left of the original car by the time you replace all the sheet metal piece by piece and it's certainly more work but that doesn't change the legal aspect. Like I said, if the one car (the plain Jane one) is nice enough to use for a rebody what is the problem with just putting that car back together? That's definitely the least effort way to go. Answer: money. The only way the car is worth more is if you trick the next guy. I suppose it could also be ego if the person doing the rebody doesn't plan on selling - but that's still fraud since that super rare loaded car is really a low performance base model with the wrong numbers.

Troy

[C_stripes]

I agree. Its not right, and I know its illegal. And I know the difference principle wise. But theoretically, it's the same thing. I wouldn't ever re body a car. I would be very upset if I found out my nice HEMI charger was a 318 car with different numbers. Like I said, I know a guy that bought a fender tag and vin tag off of ebay for a TX9 71 440 4spd GTX. It WILL be reported as a re-body.

[xs29j8Bullitt]

Others would happily put Ricks 440 in their 500 even though it doesn't completely match their car just because it has the treasured XX.

So, would that be truely reprehensible or merely outright fraud?  What's the verdict?   

XS

[Ghoste]

Good question.  Is it being done to raise the value of the car its in or just because its available?

[xs29j8Bullitt]

Good question.  Is it being done to raise the value of the car its in or just because its available?

Since it will not raise the value of the car... I guess just because it is available... and has been for well over a year!

Well... What's the verdict?

I suppose the engine will be bought by another "investor", or just disappear altogether...