Bogus cars, clones, and outright fraud??

[Ghoste]

The thread about JJ 70 Daytona conversion has me wondering here a bit.  It seems like most feel that car should stay the way it is because it's history has always been as that car from day two.  Others would happily put Ricks 440 in their 500 even though it doesn't completely match their car just because it has the treasured XX.  At the same time most of us were offended that Redneck Mopar Magazine, I mean Mopar Collectors Guide wanted Corndogs boss to leave his Superbird in wierd paint scheme it wore for several years.
So how much change do we find okay and what is truly reprehensible or is each situation unique?

[tan top]

dealer add ons   & to a certain extent wild far  out back in the day paint jobs  , but would sooner the car  looking original  paint wise  ...........   

[PocketThunder]

I think its pretty one sided.  The first two are a 

[Ghoste]

They are in my opinion too but I almost detect a certain wink-wink, nudge-nudge sort of tolerance out there.  The hobby is stuffed to bursting with the rebodies and restamps so aside from the folks who just don't know, ther are still a tremendous number of folks who see no issue with it.  The debate has come up on the site quite a few times with people defending it.  There have been some nasty debates on Moparts over it so clearly there are some who see no problem with it.  The JJ 70 car has come up so much that if I had the money I would be EXTREMELY tempted to return that car to stock.  On the other hand, after doing the bodywork I would have likely tried to duplicate the paint on the Corndog bird.

[pettybird]

the last two are kind of no brainers that they're OK--most of that stuff was done so long ago they're examples of bygone times in car culture history. 


I'm OK with all four of them (although the first is odd) if you offer up FULL DISCLOSURE and are doing it for personal reasons and not profit.  Doug S. made the point that, at some point in the future, someone will almost certainly try to make a buck off of a car by representing a car for something it isn't, and whether or not a redone car is known at the time of that future transaction can't be accounted for. 

I think I'm more OK with it than most as we simply don't sell anything here.  I can't even bring myself to dumping my old 5 liter mustang despite having another to replace it. 

[Old Moparz]

I think its pretty one sided.  The first two are a 

Same here.

One thing I would never have a problem with, is having a state issued VIN on any car I owned. A state VIN is legal, risk free of a possible future ownership issues, & allows the car to still be the same car. What would be so bad about having a car like a Hemi Daytona, or a Hemi ragtop with a state VIN?

[charger500440]

My take on this is a simple one. A few years ago an old-timer was talking about his vintage car. It was a Bugati or something similar. He said something at the time I had never thought of. He said "I don't own this rare car at all, I am just it's caretaker. I have been the car's caretaker and when I am gone, someone else will assume that role." That is how I look at these situations. If I have a rare XX29J car, documented, restored, perfect in every way, I only have it while I am alive. Eventually, it will out live me. My point is that you can do whatever to the vehicle but don't misrepresent it. I personally don't care too much for customizing, retro-modding or any other individualizing of a cool car. Re-bodying, not cool. My two pennies...

Mike

[Aero426]

My take on this is a simple one. A few years ago an old-timer was talking about his vintage car. It was a Bugati or something similar. He said something at the time I had never thought of. He said "I don't own this rare car at all, I am just it's caretaker. I have been the car's caretaker and when I am gone, someone else will assume that role." That is how I look at these situations. If I have a rare XX29J car, documented, restored, perfect in every way, I only have it while I am alive. Eventually, it will out live me. My point is that you can do whatever to the vehicle but don't misrepresent it. I personally don't care too much for customizing, retro-modding or any other individualizing of a cool car. Re-bodying, not cool. My two pennies...

Mike

I personally agree with the old timer and the "caretaker" role on a rare or unusual car.  The other side of the argument is the "It's your car, do what you want" crowd.  I can also agree and understand that to a point.  It all depends on the car.   However, you do not want to do a rare or valuable car a disservice by modifications that are hard to reverse.    When you own a special car, you need to apply a little forward thinking.

[Aero426]

What would be so bad about having a car like a Hemi Daytona, or a Hemi ragtop with a state VIN?

In the world of competitive collecting,  cars like these have become trophy wives with all the cattiness that goes along with.   

In regard to a state VIN, it's a story that has to be explained.   It's an asterisk next to the car that will never go away.    It's a bit tarnished, less than perfect.   It's a "yeah it's real, but..."

As far as owning such a car, think of a scratch and dent rack in the back of a very exclusive store.  You can get tremendous value if you are willing to ignore the snickering and raised eyebrows from others who are proud of buying off the front display. 

[nascarxx29]

Here is a fake

[tan top]

Here is a fake

sequence number too low for a daytona   

[nascarxx29]

Exactly

[hotrod98]

I've said for many years that we are all just temporary caretakers. Can't take them with us.
As for the clones, I own both "real" cars and clones and I tend to drive my clones a lot more than my "real" cars. I like the look of the Cuda so I converted a couple of my Barracudas to Cudas. I did it for me...no one else and I readily tell people that they're fakes, most of the time before they even ask.
I like all of my cars regardless of their pedigree. Just becaues it's a clone, it doesn't keep people from almost running off of the road trying to get a better look.
The only problem I have is with the crooks that just want to make a buck at someone else's expense. They have no conscience.

[69charger2002]

agreed. cloning is fine, rebodying is an absolute no no. good/honest(if that's possible) intentions are ok for that first owner when they rebody one, but subsequent owners seem to start fudging details or leaving certain aspects off the car completely. before you know it the car appears legit 4-5 owners down the road. and let's face it, we've seen it 100 times, once these cars get into a certain price class, they tend to become investment objects more than driven muscle cars.. so the flip owners much more frequently.. that's why i love clones! i have real R/T's and cloned ones, and i drive the balls off my R/T clones
trav

[69_500]

Only thing with the car you listed as being Fake Dave, is that I believe it to be a real C500. Its not the aero car they represented it to be, but its still an aero car. Just my 

I don't think that rebodies are ever right though.

[nascarxx29]

Ok lets see say its not a all out fake or totally bogus .But well mispresented as a daytona

[C_stripes]

I am more of the guy that says "it's your car, do what you want." But there are also cars out there that that should not be the case. For instance. My plans for my Numbers matching 340 Duster are to upgrade the suspension and braking system. I want 4 wheel disks, Dana 60, sub-frame connectors, and 16-18" wheels. I want white leather interior with B blue piping and black carpets. So it will have just a little different look. The 340 will be sitting on an engine stand and I will have a built 360. The one thing that I will do is make it so that nothing is permanent. If I sell it, Tufcat will be able to but it back100% stock. I haven't forgot that you want it Tufcat  . On the other hand. You have the cars like my friends 70 Road Runner AD car. That car needs to be put 100% stock. I am not a  fan of trailer queens, but in the case of cars like that. I find it exceptable. The thing on that car is that it served double for plymouth. It was Yellow in the ad and lime light in the promo video. What should you go with? It's going yellow as that's what the fender tag says.

Re-bodies;
Here's a scenario. You find a EV2 70 R code HEMI 4spd charger R/T with factory Go wing and power windows with heater delete in a farmers field. The car was rolled over back in '72. You talk to the farmer and he has the numbers matching HEMI and 4dpd as well as the Dana 60 and seats in the barn. Have not been touched since about '75. Between the rollover and sitting in the flood arrogated field, the ONLY use able sheet metal is the firewall and driver side inner fender well. The rest is either rusted or badly damaged. The farmer tells you that you can have it all for $3k. You give him the money and he gives you the orig title, window sticker, sales agreement and a paper that he found in the back of the seat(build sheet). So you have all of the orig paperwork on a numbers matching low mile 70 HEMI R/T. So you get it home and start the resto. You buy all sorts of cool AMD sheet metal. You part out that 70 charger 318 car you had and use the front clip and the roof. You put the car all back together and the ONLY orig sheet metal to the HEMI car is the firewall and driver inner fender. You also managed to save the trunk lip and the core support with extensive work.   

Okay. You didn't just re badge your 318 car like you could have, but there is VERY little that was on the charger originally. How is that NOT a re-body?

I am not saying that it is wrong to restore a car correctly and I am not saying that its right to buy a 318 charger and just add the HEMI car stuff. But in all actuality, The resulting product is the same. 

As for Clones. They definitely have their pluses. Like you dare to drive them like they were intended.

[Troy]

C_stripes:
First, you're in the Aero section so I think the $$$ we're talking about here is a bit different between a Duster and, say, a Hemi Daytona. The rarity may be there but no one is going out of their way to clone 340 Dusters. By the same token, not too many people really care if you modify a less expensive car. That's just the way it goes I guess.

Second: in your scenario, which one is illegal? There's your answer. One might be an easier route but that doesn't make it all right (especially not in the eyes of the law). A rebody is swapping tags and identification marks to a different car - NOT sheet metal replacement. It's all spelled out nice and neat in the laws of all 50 states.

It's all about money. I don't believe anyone who says they rebodied a car to "save" a piece of history. One of the cars was good enough to use so why didn't they "save" that one? It's because the other would easily double or triple the value when it comes time to sell.

Here in Ohio you can use parts of multiple cars to build one car. You have to document all the parts and any identifying numbers on them but, in the end, you have a legal, registered vehicle. Why doesn't anyone do this? Money. The paper trail documenting what was done would impact the resale value of the car. It's much easier to build the car in whatever means possible (without prying eyes) and then register it like it's been off the road for a long time. I can go through Craigslist any day and find parts with VIN stampings, VIN tags, engines, etc. - sometimes with matching titles - all advertised as "make your own...". I bought a bunch of 69 Charger parts once and was offered the VIN, title and numbers matching engine to the wrecked R/T that they came off of. More recently I had an engine builder brag that he could put any numbers that I wanted on my engine to "match anything you have". In neither case did I ask - the information was volunteered. I believe it's a lot more common than many people think.

Troy

[C_stripes]

I was just stating that I believe that if its your car, do what you want. I know that my Duster isn't a valuable car. But it is still a numbers matching car.
The same goes for a Daytona, Super Bird, 500, HEMI cuda, and any other car. If its yours, do what you want. If it has some historical significances. Try to build correctly. What fun is it to go to a car show and see 30 red cudas.

As far as rebodys, I am NOT for them. I know they are iliagal and its just fraud. But in all actuality. Its kind of the same thing. One is right and one is wrong. I know a guy that is doing a re-body on a 71 GTX and I promiss that as soon as I get the vin, I will post it as a fraud. But it is a fine line what is rebody and whats not.  So in the scenario that I gave. Lets say that you take that nice rust free 318 charger. Cut the front end off, put the HEMI charger firewall and inner fender on the 318 car and put it back together. Basically you did the same exact thing as you would have to rebuild around the firewall but it is now considered a rebody because you didn't build around the firewall which was the only good metal. I guess I am just trying to figure out where the fine line is before you have a re body or a resto.

I am not trying to cause problems, just stating my  .

Jeremy

[WingCharger]

I believe the last two are perfect. Leave these vehicles as a window to the past, a lost period in the history of MoPar and NASCAR.

I agree with C_Stripes that certain things could be counted as a re-body, and some might not. As for rebodies, I have an opinion, but I don't think I will share it.

The first option is wrong. Just wrong. When somebody does this, scams and disappointment are all that come from restamped drivetrains. I would love to see somebody restamp a trunk 440 to put into a non-numbers matching Coronet or Super Bee, and then the motor turn up.

Wing

[Troy]

No Jeremy, in the eyes of the law it isn't the same thing. Physically you are cutting and welding sheet metal so in that respect it's the "same". Legally, in one case you are repairing a car and in the other you are committing fraud (specifically removing/altering identifying marks). Sure, the argument remains that less is left of the original car by the time you replace all the sheet metal piece by piece and it's certainly more work but that doesn't change the legal aspect. Like I said, if the one car (the plain Jane one) is nice enough to use for a rebody what is the problem with just putting that car back together? That's definitely the least effort way to go. Answer: money. The only way the car is worth more is if you trick the next guy. I suppose it could also be ego if the person doing the rebody doesn't plan on selling - but that's still fraud since that super rare loaded car is really a low performance base model with the wrong numbers.

Troy

[C_stripes]

I agree. Its not right, and I know its illegal. And I know the difference principle wise. But theoretically, it's the same thing. I wouldn't ever re body a car. I would be very upset if I found out my nice HEMI charger was a 318 car with different numbers. Like I said, I know a guy that bought a fender tag and vin tag off of ebay for a TX9 71 440 4spd GTX. It WILL be reported as a re-body.

[xs29j8Bullitt]

Others would happily put Ricks 440 in their 500 even though it doesn't completely match their car just because it has the treasured XX.

So, would that be truely reprehensible or merely outright fraud?  What's the verdict?   

XS

[Ghoste]

Good question.  Is it being done to raise the value of the car its in or just because its available?

[xs29j8Bullitt]

Good question.  Is it being done to raise the value of the car its in or just because its available?

Since it will not raise the value of the car... I guess just because it is available... and has been for well over a year!

Well... What's the verdict?

I suppose the engine will be bought by another "investor", or just disappear altogether...

[Ghoste]

An expensive propostion so far for "just available" when there are plenty of other 440's around.  We're both dancing around it but here is my verdict; engine swaps are as common as dirt so it hardly constitutes fraud or anything else.  I think you are maybe reading what I put up out of context, my point was not that installing a different engine is fradulent but rather that everyone has their own definition of whats okay to change on a car.  A poorly worded example on my part I suppose.

[xs29j8Bullitt]

An expensive propostion so far for "just available" when there are plenty of other 440's around.  We're both dancing around it but here is my verdict; engine swaps are as common as dirt so it hardly constitutes fraud or anything else.  I think you are maybe reading what I put up out of context, my point was not that installing a different engine is fradulent but rather that everyone has their own definition of whats okay to change on a car.  A poorly worded example on my part I suppose.

When I saw your thread title, I assumed that like in the Moparts threads it would be about engine and transmission restamping, car rebodying, fake broadcast sheets from Arizona, and the like...

The engine now is not that much more expensive than other standard bore 1969 440s, a bit more but not a large premium.  I thought that since "Rick's 440" was not going to be bought by Rick, giving it a home in another C500 with a VIN# 28 units earlier would be a good idea...

I was getting close to working out a deal to get the engine out of it's limbo, but will now pass on the purchase.  Maybe the six forum members who contacted me over the last 15 or so months to give Rick "more time" will get together and buy it for Rick... or maybe it will be making passes down the track later this year in a Duster.

XS

[Ghoste]

The title is awkward as well.  My curiosity was raised by a variety of things and just wanting to find out where people stood.  We've been talking about Jerry Jeunemans car and Ricks engine (and where it should go) and discussing so much about whats okay and what isn't that I think I was trying to narrow down opinions on a broad brush of interest.  Discover the gray areas if you will.  So far everyone is pretty much of the same opinion about rebody and restamp issues.  Clones and dealer add ons didn't generate the discussion that I thought they would.  Not about whether they are right or wrong but should they be preserved as such forever?

[xs29j8Bullitt]

The title is awkward as well.  My curiosity was raised by a variety of things and just wanting to find out where people stood.  We've been talking about Jerry Jeunemans car and Ricks engine (and where it should go) and discussing so much about whats okay and what isn't that I think I was trying to narrow down opinions on a broad brush of interest.  Discover the gray areas if you will.  So far everyone is pretty much of the same opinion about rebody and restamp issues.  Clones and dealer add ons didn't generate the discussion that I thought they would.  Not about whether they are right or wrong but should they be preserved as such forever?

Between the title and the way the sentence was worded, I thought the meaning was clear... maybe I was wrong?

"Others would happily put Ricks 440 in their 500 even though it doesn't completely match their car just because it has the treasured XX."

Thanks for explaining your intent for the thread.  Like many Mopar fans, I want no part of restamping or other fraudulent practices.  I like clones that are openly acknowledged, with no attempt to deceive... so called "tribute" cars are a different story...

XS

[Troy]

Well, I'd say restamped drivelines are right up there with a rebody. Any altering of identification numbers is illegal as far as I know (not sure if every state considers the engine or trans as part of the car's ID though). Swapping engines is, unfortunately, a necessary evil. I know some people would prefer to have an unstamped "warranty block" but it still isn't the original. The next best thing I suppose is a "date coded" block and getting one from a car only a few numbers away would almost guarantee the correct date. The VIN stamped on it wouldn't matter to me as it's still incorrect. Can anyone see it once it's in the car?

Troy

[C_stripes]

Well, I'd say restamped drivelines are right up there with a rebody. Any altering of identification numbers is illegal as far as I know (not sure if every state considers the engine or trans as part of the car's ID though). Swapping engines is, unfortunately, a necessary evil. I know some people would prefer to have an unstamped "warranty block" but it still isn't the original. The next best thing I suppose is a "date coded" block and getting one from a car only a few numbers away would almost guarantee the correct date. The VIN stamped on it wouldn't matter to me as it's still incorrect. Can anyone see it once it's in the car?

Troy

I have a question about the numbers being a few off.  I heard of a car a while back that the engine and trans were both one number off of the vin, (Example, car. 100001- Engine/Trans. 100002) The guy that owned it bought it from the orig owner who said nothing had ever been done to the car. So it was more than likely a typo. How would that be considered?

I also agree that changing the numbers on the block and trans is illegal and wrong.

Jeremy

[Ghoste]

There will always be occasional mistakes cropping up from the factory, I think they can usually be verified without too much trouble.  Whether it affects the value of the car or not I have no idea.  I don't think it would for me but then again if I were purchasing an investment grade car... 

[Magnumcharger]

I am more of the guy that says "it's your car, do what you want." But there are also cars out there that that should not be the case. For instance. My plans for my Numbers matching 340 Duster are to upgrade the suspension and braking system. I want 4 wheel disks, Dana 60, sub-frame connectors, and 16-18" wheels. I want white leather interior with B blue piping and black carpets. So it will have just a little different look. The 340 will be sitting on an engine stand and I will have a built 360. The one thing that I will do is make it so that nothing is permanent. If I sell it, Tufcat will be able to but it back100% stock. I haven't forgot that you want it Tufcat  . On the other hand. You have the cars like my friends 70 Road Runner AD car. That car needs to be put 100% stock. I am not a  fan of trailer queens, but in the case of cars like that. I find it exceptable. The thing on that car is that it served double for plymouth. It was Yellow in the ad and lime light in the promo video. What should you go with? It's going yellow as that's what the fender tag says.

Re-bodies;
Here's a scenario. You find a EV2 70 R code HEMI 4spd charger R/T with factory Go wing and power windows with heater delete in a farmers field. The car was rolled over back in '72. You talk to the farmer and he has the numbers matching HEMI and 4dpd as well as the Dana 60 and seats in the barn. Have not been touched since about '75. Between the rollover and sitting in the flood arrogated field, the ONLY use able sheet metal is the firewall and driver side inner fender well. The rest is either rusted or badly damaged. The farmer tells you that you can have it all for $3k. You give him the money and he gives you the orig title, window sticker, sales agreement and a paper that he found in the back of the seat(build sheet). So you have all of the orig paperwork on a numbers matching low mile 70 HEMI R/T. So you get it home and start the resto. You buy all sorts of cool AMD sheet metal. You part out that 70 charger 318 car you had and use the front clip and the roof. You put the car all back together and the ONLY orig sheet metal to the HEMI car is the firewall and driver inner fender. You also managed to save the trunk lip and the core support with extensive work.   

Okay. You didn't just re badge your 318 car like you could have, but there is VERY little that was on the charger originally. How is that NOT a re-body?

I am not saying that it is wrong to restore a car correctly and I am not saying that its right to buy a 318 charger and just add the HEMI car stuff. But in all actuality, The resulting product is the same. 

As for Clones. They definitely have their pluses. Like you dare to drive them like they were intended.

Funny....If you delete "70 Hemi R/T" and insert "'69 Hemi Daytona", I could say I've actually seen that car, and heard that story before...

[chargerkid01]

I don't mind paint or a couple mods to the engine but cloning and rebody sucks just my

[hemigeno]

The engine now is not that much more expensive than other standard bore 1969 440s, a bit more but not a large premium.  I thought that since "Rick's 440" was not going to be bought by Rick, giving it a home in another C500 with a VIN# 28 units earlier would be a good idea...

I was getting close to working out a deal to get the engine out of it's limbo, but will now pass on the purchase.  Maybe the six forum members who contacted me over the last 15 or so months to give Rick "more time" will get together and buy it for Rick... or maybe it will be making passes down the track later this year in a Duster.

XS

Allen,

I'm sorry to hear that you're contemplating a change in your plans.  If Rick is still inclined to pass on the block, I personally liked the thought of the engine being back in another Charger 500 - especially one that close in VIN.  A couple years back I purchased the transmission from another St. Louis-built '69 HemiCharger built the same month as my R/T.  Even though it is no "better" than the non-numbers-matching transmission it currently has, I felt it was neat to have one that "close".  Same goes for my Daytona's engine block.  I searched for YEARS to find a good E440 HP block with correct dates, and finally found what I was looking for - and it has an unstamped VIN pad to boot.  That would be one of the easiest re-stamps in the world to make, as it would be the first time the pad was ever stamped (no machining necessary and no evidence of a prior VIN detectable in the crystallization pattern of the metal).  One of the reasons I've posted several pictures of the block and mentioned this point several times, is so that the car's history will be known publicly.  No future owner (hope there's not one for a loooong time) will be able to restamp the block without risk of being called out as a fraud.  Non-numbers-matching cars like yours and mine are still non-numbers-matching cars even with "close" engines or transmissions.  I'm of the same opinion, that having something "close" - when available - is better than any other option.  Hope you reconsider and keep Rick's block on your shopping list if he's still taking a pass.



As far as the original question in this thread, Dealer-added mod's and custom paint jobs add character to a car, but don't change its identity.  The other two options on the poll mess with a car's identity/pedigree.  That's why they're over the line in my book.

[hotrod98]

I don't mind paint or a couple mods to the engine but cloning and rebody sucks just my

I can't help it of there were less than 500 real Daytonas built and I didn't end up with one of them. 

My clone takes nothing away from the real Daytonas and is intended to be a tribute, not a replacement. I think that many of the owners of real Daytonas wouldn't mind having an exact duplicate clone of their car to go out and terrorize the streets with. Saves the possiblilty of having that little bubble brained blonde that's too busy text messaging to realize that she's about to run a stop sign and t-bone a valuable, irreplacable collectible.

My choices were, spending 20k building a clone that I can drive every day if I wanted and insure it for about $40 a month or put up the house and the life savings and buy a real Daytona.

I love my clones. 

[tan top]

I can't help it of there were less than 500 real Daytonas built and I didn't end up with one of them. 

My clone takes nothing away from the real Daytonas and is intended to be a tribute, not a replacement. I think that many of the owners of real Daytonas wouldn't mind having an exact duplicate clone of their car to go out and terrorize the streets with. Saves the possiblilty of having that little bubble brained blonde that's too busy text messaging to realize that she's about to run a stop sign and t-bone a valuable, irreplacable collectible.

My choices were, spending 20k building a clone that I can drive every day if I wanted and insure it for about $40 a month or put up the house and the life savings and buy a real Daytona.

I love my clones. 

true

[nascarxx29]

There is nothing wrong with a daytona clone or any other clone .I had a clone daytona  before the real one came available.It doesnt take away from the real ones .If its not being sold as the real daytona.Nowbody is getting hurt

[chargerkid01]

I'll tell you what it does take away from though, all of us younger guys trying to get ahold of a regular charger and not pay out the a$$ for one that isn't even real to the badges it wears!!! It is like being pulled in 2 directions.

[Aero426]

I'll tell you what it does take away from though, all of us younger guys trying to get ahold of a regular charger and not pay out the a$$ for one that isn't even real to the badges it wears!!! It is like being pulled in 2 directions.

Wow, I never thought I'd see the day when clone owners get beat up for keeping their fellow man down.   

[hotrod98]

I'll tell you what it does take away from though, all of us younger guys trying to get ahold of a regular charger and not pay out the a$$ for one that isn't even real to the badges it wears!!! It is like being pulled in 2 directions.

Don't know how you came up with that conclusion.
I don't think that a few guys cloning a few Chargers is going to affect the market much.

[Troy]

I'll tell you what it does take away from though, all of us younger guys trying to get ahold of a regular charger and not pay out the a$$ for one that isn't even real to the badges it wears!!! It is like being pulled in 2 directions.

Don't know how you came up with that conclusion.
I don't think that a few guys cloning a few Chargers is going to affect the market much.

No kidding. Adding badges doesn't make a car worth more. Adding a more powerful engine, suspension, brakes, and maybe more options usually does whether it's a true "clone" or not. I don't believe there are enough Daytona clones to make a dent in the overal project car market.

Troy

[xs29j8Bullitt]

Allen,

I'm sorry to hear that you're contemplating a change in your plans.  If Rick is still inclined to pass on the block, I personally liked the thought of the engine being back in another Charger 500 - especially one that close in VIN.  A couple years back I purchased the transmission from another St. Louis-built '69 HemiCharger built the same month as my R/T.  Even though it is no "better" than the non-numbers-matching transmission it currently has, I felt it was neat to have one that "close".  Same goes for my Daytona's engine block.  I searched for YEARS to find a good E440 HP block with correct dates, and finally found what I was looking for - and it has an unstamped VIN pad to boot.  That would be one of the easiest re-stamps in the world to make, as it would be the first time the pad was ever stamped (no machining necessary and no evidence of a prior VIN detectable in the crystallization pattern of the metal).  One of the reasons I've posted several pictures of the block and mentioned this point several times, is so that the car's history will be known publicly.  No future owner (hope there's not one for a loooong time) will be able to restamp the block without risk of being called out as a fraud.  Non-numbers-matching cars like yours and mine are still non-numbers-matching cars even with "close" engines or transmissions.  I'm of the same opinion, that having something "close" - when available - is better than any other option.  Hope you reconsider and keep Rick's block on your shopping list if he's still taking a pass.

Thanks Gene, deciding to finally pass on the engine was a tough one.  I still think it would be a great 2nd home for the engine, and maybe eventually lead to the engine returning to its original home.  Also, at a minimum it would have guaranteed that the engine was not "lost" again, or being put at risk by excessive flogging at a dragstrip.  In addition to the reasons that you posted, there were other considerations like I mentioned above.  I too was going to do it openly, with no attempt to deceive anyone.

Several of the folks that contacted me to ask that I give Rick more time are great guys, and I believe are well intentioned... but the end result could be much worse than ever anticipated.  I hope things turn out well, and that the engine is eventually reunited with Rick's C500.

Based on the last year-plus long drama, I reluctantly have to believe that my buying it would lead to a long series of discussions, some friendly & some not.  Also, probably a whole bunch of trade proposals... ya know like a 361 short block and used lawn mower, 1961 Seneca body, etc.  When the car eventually changes hands, I am sure the new owner would want the engine... just like I would in his shoes.

Thanks again Gene, we will see what happens...

BTW, check your PM inbox for a message I forwarded.  

Allen

[69bronzeT5]

but no one is going out of their way to clone 340 Dusters.

I'm putting 340 stripes on my 318 Duster

[aussiemuscle]

You might be interested to know in Australia, not only is it illegal to Sell id tags, if a rebody is found to be misrepresented, it goes back to the person who did it. Also they are liable for any increase in value caused by the misrepresentation.

think of the differnece from a base model charger to a hemi daytona! Even if the car has been sold 5 times or it's
been 10 years, it still goes back to the one that created the misrepresentation, so they are up for the value differences.

[hemigeno]

Thanks Gene, deciding to finally pass on the engine was a tough one.  I still think it would be a great 2nd home for the engine, and maybe eventually lead to the engine returning to its original home.  Also, at a minimum it would have guaranteed that the engine was not "lost" again, or being put at risk by excessive flogging at a dragstrip.  In addition to the reasons that you posted, there were other considerations like I mentioned above.  I too was going to do it openly, with no attempt to deceive anyone.

Several of the folks that contacted me to ask that I give Rick more time are great guys, and I believe are well intentioned... but the end result could be much worse than ever anticipated.  I hope things turn out well, and that the engine is eventually reunited with Rick's C500.

Based on the last year-plus long drama, I reluctantly have to believe that my buying it would lead to a long series of discussions, some friendly & some not.  Also, probably a whole bunch of trade proposals... ya know like a 361 short block and used lawn mower, 1961 Seneca body, etc.  When the car eventually changes hands, I am sure the new owner would want the engine... just like I would in his shoes.

Thanks again Gene, we will see what happens...

BTW, check your PM inbox for a message I forwarded.  

Allen

Sadly, I understand your logic perfectly - and you're almost certainly correct in the predictions of what might happen if you picked it up.  You'd become the "bad guy" (not necessarily with the Edwards's) despite any true and logical explanations to the contrary.

While I'm ultimately rooting for Rick's car to be reunited with the engine, something tells me that the seller isn't going to admit his mistake and take any sort of loss.  The auction will probably turn up every 90 days (cheap eBay re-list fees that way), so we can all pick up the discussion then.   

[chargerkid01]

I couldn't think of a good reason to defend my first statement leave me alone

[moparstuart]

I'll tell you what it does take away from though, all of us younger guys trying to get ahold of a regular charger and not pay out the a$$ for one that isn't even real to the badges it wears!!! It is like being pulled in 2 directions.

Wow, I never thought I'd see the day when clone owners get beat up for keeping their fellow man down.   

those hard core 70 charger guys, yell at us all the time for making there good fenders and hoods dry up   

[hotrod98]

I'll tell you what it does take away from though, all of us younger guys trying to get ahold of a regular charger and not pay out the a$$ for one that isn't even real to the badges it wears!!! It is like being pulled in 2 directions.

Wow, I never thought I'd see the day when clone owners get beat up for keeping their fellow man down.   

those hard core 70 charger guys, yell at us all the time for making there good fenders and hoods dry up   

Now if they had just traded their '70 front clips for our '69 front clips in the first place then there wouldn't have been any problems. 

[moparstuart]

I'll tell you what it does take away from though, all of us younger guys trying to get ahold of a regular charger and not pay out the a$$ for one that isn't even real to the badges it wears!!! It is like being pulled in 2 directions.

Wow, I never thought I'd see the day when clone owners get beat up for keeping their fellow man down.   

those hard core 70 charger guys, yell at us all the time for making there good fenders and hoods dry up   

Now if they had just traded their '70 front clips for our '69 front clips in the first place then there wouldn't have been any problems. 

yeah i have a nice 69 front clip that will be up for sale

[68beepbeep]

In the case of a re body, If you had a rare car and you needed a left front fender, you would look for a good used or NOS part.  If you had a rare car with Lot's of options and in a cool color and the unibody was shot, then you should be able to replace it.  I don't think it is legal though?  But I do agree with this practice as long as, when you sell it, they know it.  It's the one way a rare car can live on for future generations. Let's face it, most of the good cars were used up years ago!

Changing a color is customizing, so be prepard to get grief on that and suffer a loss when you sell it.

Re stamping a block is like lieing, just try to get a date coded correct block and make it look correct.

Changing a fender tag, I totally don't agree with. Adding options to a car is O.K. because they can come off if desired.