The rescue *Charger under raps* 2/17/09

[BB1]

Tell me if I am thinking logically:

Here are the facts.

The story starts with what I thought was a good body man.
I understand I wasn't thinking or shopping for a good body shop, I was looking for a cheap one.
One year later and after spending BIG money on everything, I have nothing.

The guys is being sued by 4 customers for shitty work done and too much time spent.
Can't seem to color match well.

He quotes low and after the fact finds more work needs to be done. His employees pay checks bounce as he takes trips around the world; others are ready to leave.
I know the money I paid him went out for other things. That's why he can't start on it until he gets more money. So it sits there for a year. The never ending project.
He's one of the best sales men I know of. He talks like he is the shits, knows everything did everything why would you go to another shop but his.

1) I thought about selling all of it. I wont get my money out of it. Then I would have to
    sue the bastard.
2) Give him a dead line to just do the metal work and prime it. I wouldn't let him paint
     my refrigerator.
3) Pull it out, sue him and pay another body shop to work on it. I don't have the money to
    do that.
4) I would trade it for a nice running Mopar. Someone could make out on that one, but I
     like the concept. Would have to be worth around $20,000. probably would take less.
     That was 2007 money.
5) Take all the parts and car to Arizona and put it together myself, or part it out.

I am moving to Arizona in 2 months; I could come back for it after the guy does what I tell him. I can't see what he is doing, but could I trust him to get money enough to pay his employees to handle the metal work?
I like his employees, they tell me everything that's going on, they feel for me. They are good at what they do. If they leave then that's the last straw.

I could find better Chargers in Arizona and California for far cheaper and they would run.
No matter what I do it's a loss. I gambled I lost.

I want to just start over, "mulligan" and have a Mopar that I can drive and have fun with.

What is the verdict?

I'm ready to walk.

[Mopar2Ya]

Wow, sorry to hear this. It's amazing how many crocked body shops there are. They all say they're the best. I'd get some work done for what $ you've given him, if you take the car now getting your $ back may be tough/impossible. 

[Troy]

Honestly, if you sell out now you'll probably take a much bigger hit than you're thinking. I can't imagine any scenario where you could get $20k out of a project. Perhaps if it included a Hemi or a semi truck load of NOS parts? Believe me, I have four projects and, in this market, I doubt I could get that money out of my one drivable Charger (and it's an R/T).

If you leave it in the shop you're asking for trouble. You already know the situation and it's certainly not going to improve. Go get the car before any of it starts to mysteriously disappear. If you have an agreement in writing then start following up legally. Do it soon before the owner loses too much money and folds - at which point you'll get absolutely nothing.

Sorry to hear about this and it does seem to be a common story recently.

Troy

[69*F5*SE]

Sorry to hear this as I wonder about the future of my project also.     Wish I had something I could say that would help.  Ted

[BB1]

 

I could take a welding class and put it together myself. I'm not afraid to do it, I would probably do a better job than most body shops.
I'm so sick and tired of these people around the country taking on projects they can't finish.
The industry is totally tainted IMHO.

[jdiesel33]

This is why it took me so long to find and decide on someone just to put in my pans!!! I have heard too many horror stories and dont know who to trust.

[Mean 318]

I am in the same spot right now... I waited 5 months to get my 70 in the shop and the guy came back and said.... nope sorry i just dont have the time
A week before he was still set for this month
The bitch of it is he did my fenders and I paid him for the fenders and the hood, i got the fenders but he still has the hood and my scoops.... do i go get my parts or do i just wait to see what is going on... IMO get your car and your parts... cut and run!

[moparstuart]

 I agree with what was said by troy go get the car , I waited too long with my convertible and parts ended up disapearing.  I lost $ 7500.00  in money paid for work not done and parts missing .  I was in your same situation , it frustrated me and depressed me so i did nothing for over 6 years .  That was a mistake  ( go get your car ) 

[0X01B8]

Get your car back.  Sue if you can.  If his employees are good, like you say, then tell them to call you when they find a new shop to work for.

[skip68]

Get the car now !  Make sure you get all the parts.   When you get home after picking up the car, write down exactly what you did, why you did it and what was said, and date it. Then make a file and put it with all the other papers you have on the car.   This is good to do while it is fresh in your mind.  As time goes by, things get forgotten.  I would even take a camcorder and record everthing.  Get any information you can from him.  Like his bond, insurance and anything you can.    Good luck.........  Chuck.............

[Old Moparz]

Other than the fact you're in Kansas & moving to Arizona, I'd swear you copied, saved, & pasted something I posted once....LOL

Bear with me, this is long, but I think it's important for you & others to know what you can be up against later.

I already went through exactly, and I mean EXACTLY what you are going through right now. The best advice I can give you is to get your car & parts out of this chop shop as soon as you can. Forget about what you already spent, forget about the guy doing anymore work on your car, & forget about the amount you've invested so far. That was the same advice my lawyer gave me back in 1989 & it saved me some grief.  

The basic thing that happened was, a reputable restoration shop was recommended to me by the body shop that painted a car for a friend of mine. The aftermarket sheet metal wasn't available at the time & they said they wouldn't install quarters on my Satellite convertible unless I can get them new. I said I had two mint, used ones, but they still refused the work & recommended the other shop for restoration work.

I went to the said shop in New Jersey at the time, Past & Present Automotive owned by William (Bill) Losse, & spoke to him in detail about what would be needed & done to my car. I scheduled a date to drop off the car & left a deposit that day. After a very slow start up on my car, almost a full month, he managed to get some work done that was getting to be more costly than anticipated. Another problem was that a contractor doing work in his building didn't finish the work. The problem here was that the area under construction was for a new down draft paint booth.

I was doing home improvements at the time & made a deal with this guy to finish the work in his building to offset the cost on my car. I put my car into storage & went to work on his building that winter a few evenings each week & some weekends. After a couple of months of being there to witness the work in progress on other cars, I saw the kid he hired as a helper with no experience spraying cars. I also saw cars being painted 2 or 3 times because they looked like crap & had to be redone. I also saw one guy sweeping the floor 10 feet from the guy who was painting.  

I wasn't the least bit happy with all this, & scrutinized the work completed on my own car. I found issues with filler that wasn't supposed to be used since I located two mint quarter panels. There were other problems, but the work he did on it just sucked. The worst part was that the one guy who did know how to do the work, quit because he didn't get paid. Well, he got his paycheck, but it bounced.

As the construction I did for his paint booth came to an end, he wanted other work in the building done. I did very little, & brought my car back to his shop saying that I needed some progress made on his part before I went further. My car sat in there for 2 full months & never touched. I called all the time & eventually he stopped answering his phone. I'd have to physically go to the shop to find him & talk, & each time, IF he was there, had heard another empty promise that he'd start the next day or so. I had paid him about $3000 for the previous work on my car, & now into his shop for another $1500 in materials alone.

I decided to speak to my lawyer & he said it sounded like the guy is in serious trouble with money & that I should get my car out. The next day I got a ride there, took whatever tools I had in his building, backed the car out of his shop & waited for him to arrive. When he showed up he asked what was wrong & I said I needed the car back & split. Two weeks later the building was closed by the fire department for some serious violations that were a couple of years old. There were a lot of other cars in there, but nobody was able to get them out.

There was a fenced in towing company behind him & at a later date, they got all the vehicles that were in his building & were charging storage fees. Among the cars I can recall being left outdoors, uncovered, some without windows, convertible tops or paint, & in various stages of completion, were.....1ea mid 60's Nova SS......2ea E-Type Jags...... 3ea Mercedes 2 seaters......50's T-Bird.........67 Chrysler 300........and at least a dozen others, but not mine. The shop never reopened either.

I went to court with a civil suit & won because he failed to show. I never collected a penny, but my lawyer, who has also become a friend for the last 20 plus years, took it on contingency & never charged me a thing except court costs of around $175. At the time, I had just moved to NY over an hour away, just bought a house, & couldn't really follow up & track the guy down later. My lawyer did do a judgement search on him & found that there was $250,000 worth of previous suits that went unpaid against him.

He also did a DMV & property search to see if he owned anything I could put a lien on, but he had everything in his wife's name. The guy was "judgement proof" as my lawyer put it. The only thing in my favor is that the civil suit I won doesn't expire. That means if at a later date something turned up of value with this scumbag, I could place a lien & collect. The guy is probably retired or dead by now since he was in his mid 50's when he screwed me in 1989.

I stored my car & walked away from the hobby for a good 5 years. Aside from being broke, the whole incident took the wind out of my sails with wanting to restore the car. The biggest roadblock on it, is not that it went unfinished, but that all the work I had paid for was shit & will have to be redone. Now that I have other projects & toys, the Satellite gets driven because I can, but I have no desire to rip it apart.

If I were you BB1, get the car & save what's left of your ass. You won't be able to do a damn thing easily in Kansas from Arizona.  

[BB1]

Great write up OM, you said it all brother.

I hear you guys, I have nothing to lose right now, my mind has the info.

Well, after I wrote this I drove over there...
I talked to his ex-brother-in-law who works there, along with the owners nephew. They are more frustrated with the owners decision than I am. He has them do little things to 10 different jobs and never finish any of them.
They are my insiders, they told me everything about his troubles with other customers.

Every week I visit the shop to see how things are going. I know what has been going there the last 126 weeks starting in July of 07.

The owner showed up and I told him this... You have until March 30th to get these things done, (spelled it out) I will pull up on that day and take what I have in there and take it to California.
My very good friend George has a son that will finish the work at his body shop.

He said "I have a lot of stuff to get done in Feb, but I will put 2 guys on it in March.
Ah... he has to get the money to pay his crew to work on it.
The pressure is heating up, his employees are capable of doing a good job, I've seen what they can do.
Telling him he has a deadline might work.
I will be showing up every day I have off, to see what progress if any has been made.
I'm going to inventory the parts that I paid for and take pictures of them.

Do I expect anything? no I don't, either way it is coming out. Good riddance.

[72SE]

I agree with what was said by troy go get the car , I waited too long with my convertible and parts ended up disappearing.  I lost $ 7500.00  in money paid for work not done and parts missing .  I was in your same situation , it frustrated me and depressed me so i did nothing for over 6 years .  That was a mistake ( go get your car ) 

Same story here. Definitely don't leave the car!

  Had my 70 R/T and 72 sunroof SE in a friend that I grew up withs body shop for ground up restorations. I paid him a large chunk of cash up front for NOS parts and basically to get the ball rolling (I thought). My plan was to move to FL from MN within 8 months, which I told him in the beginning.

  Well you've heard the story before, 8 months roll by and still hasn't done sh*t to the cars. I had alot of things going on in those 8 months (father died, work, etc) so I didn't push like i should have but his wonderful solution was that he was going to bring them to me when they were done. SOLD! Sounded good to me!

  Flew back to MN quite a few times to check on the progress. Not much had changed. (out of sight, out of mind) I wasn't worried I knew they were safe and really didn't have anywhere to put them since i was renting a condo while I looked for a place to buy. Dumb a*s me let him dick me around for 5 more years.

  One day I received a phone call from the guys sister. My buddy had been killed in a car accident a month earlier. She told me she had been trying to get ahold of me and I needed to get my butt up there and get my cars because his shop was being sold in a week. I ended up having to have buddies up there get my cars and put them in storage until I could get there. When I finally got there I found that little had been done and "mysteriously" the 70 was missing 2 NOS quarter panels, Dana rear and the original 440. My 72 (originally my fathers) was missing the original freshly built motor, rallye doors, ramcharger hood (with all of the parts) NOS quarters, sunroof parts,rallye taillights and my dash frame with the damn VIN attached.

  Point of the story, Bug the sh*t out of the guy to get it done and don't go anywhere without your car! Mike

[Aero426]

Telling him he has a deadline might work.

Get your car out now.   Don't waste any more time.    This situation has played out time and time again, and it does not end well.   

[ACUDANUT]

BB1 and Mopar Stuart. You guys are from KC. Why didn't you take it to Ken Ussery. He is a HPAC member and a hell of a great body man and dang fine man. Been doing Mopar's for over 40 years.  He has done four of my cars.    Not one complaint.

[BB1]

BB1 and Mopar Stuart. You guys are from KC. Why didn't you take it to Ken Ussery. He is a HPAC member and a hell of a great body man and dang fine man. Been doing Mopar's for over 40 years.  He has done four of my cars.    Not one complaint.

No money, the money I was going to have to get it finished is gone. I will pick up the pieces some year sometime.

I wont leave it there when I'm gone, that has changed. I will be a fly up his arss for the time I have left. The parts he doesn't need will be removed.
If he thinks he can keep it until he wants to work on it, he is mistaken.

I have to store it here in Kansas until the late summer, I need some big burly Mafia guys to help me please.

Sign up plz.

[Mopar2Ya]

After rereading my post & others, I agree get the car now & cut your loses. When I talked w/a lawyer about my car, he said I could be looking at $2500 is his fees. Why are there so many dirty body shops??? 

[moparstuart]

BB1 and Mopar Stuart. You guys are from KC. Why didn't you take it to Ken Ussery. He is a HPAC member and a hell of a great body man and dang fine man. Been doing Mopar's for over 40 years.  He has done four of my cars.    Not one complaint.

No money, the money I was going to have to get it finished is gone. I will pick up the pieces some year sometime.

I wont leave it there when I'm gone, that has changed. I will be a fly up his arss for the time I have left. The parts he doesn't need will be removed.
If he thinks he can keep it until he wants to work on it, he is mistaken.

I have to store it here in Kansas until the late summer, I need some big burly Mafia guys to help me please.

Sign up plz.

i'm in ED anytime

yes i know ken and he is a great guy , but yes I also could never afford his prices .  He quoted me to restore my convertible 11 years ago when i first got it and it was triple the price i could afford , Should i have used him , YES YES YES my car would have been done in 3-4 month and i would not have had the head ackes . But at that time there was no way i could do it .  NOW i  know several reliable shops that are affordable and i wish I knew Ed well when he took his car to this guy .  

[ACUDANUT]

After rereading my post & others, I agree get the car now & cut your loses. When I talked w/a lawyer about my car, he said I could be looking at $2500 is his fees. Why are there so many dirty body shops??? 

No need for an attorney. Lets go get your car, and I will help you get started in the small claims court.

[89MOPAR]

  " The owner showed up and I told him this... You have until March 30th to get these things done, (spelled it out) I will pull up on that day and take what I have in there and take it to California.
My very good friend George has a son that will finish the work at his body shop.

He said "I have a lot of stuff to get done in Feb, but I will put 2 guys on it in March."

  No No No No No !

What did you get in writing ?   It looks like nothing.   
Who will the employees back ?  Maybe you, since they bitched about their issues,  but they will still be dependent on him for that last paycheck....so probably not.
Dude, either he just strung you along again, -or- this is ok to you because you don't want the hassle of moving the car and the expense of storing it right now.

Look I'm not a bodywork expert or a contracts expert, but i don't get it ?
There seems to be this myth that the best body/ paint guys will not work to a contract or give receipts 
The difference is , some of the best guys will work to a detailed contract, but they will cost more !
See the above post where the guy paid more but is totally happy with the work done.
I can understand the bodymans reluctance to put facts and figures on paper,  - Taxes !, among other reasons.
It puts you totally in his power.
If you had a company come in and re-model your kitchen and bathrooms, would you say "ok, here's $3000 to get started , let me know what I owe you after you tear into the walls, find bad plumbing, overcharge me for the fridge + oven, gouge scrathches into the new wood flooring, take 7 months longer than you promised, etc "  --- no freakin way !  Why is an auto body shop somehow different ?

MAybe it would be worth it to say up front " look i want a contract, with completion dates, and penalties of $20 a day against you if you deliver late. We can modify the contract upon mutual agreement if you find some horrid unforeseen problem, or you show me the cost of materials/parts was way more than you thought.  And I am willing to pay you shop rates of $$ for X amount of hours to look over the car, so we can have a reasonable estimate, before we draw up the contract " 

Maybe this sounds ignorant ?  But I'd rather be ignorant with money and an ugly car, than broke and ripped off with a bitter experience and an ugly car.

[Old Moparz]

After rereading my post & others, I agree get the car now & cut your loses. When I talked w/a lawyer about my car, he said I could be looking at $2500 is his fees. Why are there so many dirty body shops??? 

No need for an attorney. Lets go get your car, and I will help you get started in the small claims court.

Definitely go get the car, the hell with deadlines. You have a bigger chance of this guy losing & damaging things than getting decent body work. Or him doing far worse body work than he ever would have.

It might be different from state to state, but in NJ where I was at the time with my body shop issue, the lawyer said that I could file a civil court case for various reasons. That allowed me to sue the shop owner personally, along with the business for 3 times the actual cash amount, which theoretically should cover the cost to redo it. The owner made claims of his shop being capable of providing certain things that I eventually discovered they could not do. It gets complicated, but the judgement I have is against the business & the owner separately. That gives me the chance to lien his personal property if it was ever found.

All the legal stuff I did was after I got the car, not during.

[Mopar2Ya]

After rereading my post & others, I agree get the car now & cut your loses. When I talked w/a lawyer about my car, he said I could be looking at $2500 is his fees. Why are there so many dirty body shops??? 

No need for an attorney. Lets go get your car, and I will help you get started in the small claims court.

Definitely go get the car, the hell with deadlines. You have a bigger chance of this guy losing & damaging things than getting decent body work. Or him doing far worse body work than he ever would have.

It might be different from state to state, but in NJ where I was at the time with my body shop issue, the lawyer said that I could file a civil court case for various reasons. That allowed me to sue the shop owner personally, along with the business for 3 times the actual cash amount, which theoretically should cover the cost to redo it. The owner made claims of his shop being capable of providing certain things that I eventually discovered they could not do. It gets complicated, but the judgement I have is against the business & the owner separately. That gives me the chance to lien his personal property if it was ever found.

All the legal stuff I did was after I got the car, not during.

Oh I got my car back. This was 4 yrs ago. The body work done was unacceptable. That's when I contacted a lawyer. I did check on the car quite frequently, but it just showed up at my place on a flatbed painted. I asked to see it in primer so I could check for imperfections before paint.  We had an agreed price, then I kept buying new panels/parts w/my $, in the end the price went up $2k. I paid, then he wanted $800 for some guy who he subbed welding out to(don't ask another story) I said no, at least not until the car was right. He didn't care.
One lesson learned, if you can, check the car often as possible.

[mikepmcs]

I agree, don't wait.  This guy is in trouble big time financially, I can smell it.  Trust me on this one, I can see it a mile away, cause I lived it day in and day out helping my buddy who owns a body shop.  Nothing will be done to your car without any money.  He will put any job he can that produces money in front of yours just so he can pay the bills. His business is hanging by a thread and his employees are not your friends, believe it.  Did you read Bob's whole fiasco, I sure did and he's on the money like everyone else.  What if his place shuts down or is seized next week.  You stand to lose your car indefinitely.
Go get the car and all your parts now.  Store it in a storage by the month facility if you have to, leave it outside at your place whatever, just go get the car.

Mike

[Steve P.]

Yet another crooked body shop. Will this ever end??

I am damn sorry this has happened to you. Everyone before me has said it all. Call a rollback wrecker and 6 of your biggest buddies and go get that car ASAP. Video everything you can. Tape record anything you can. Do everything you can to make and keep perfect records of everything pertaining to this. It will all help you to get whatever you can from this guy.

Get the names of the other people suing him try to be in the courtroom when they go. If it goes to more than small claims you will know how others did and if he had a good lawyer.

Whatever you do, DON'T just sit thinking about it. The longer you wait, the more chance that your parts are someone elses pay.

[BB1]

I agree with all that has been said, unfortunately the result would be me selling the whole thing.

To keep spending money on storage and such will just be good money after bad. Something has to give.

These are not good times, I'm pretty much finished with the goofiness of the times we live in today.
I made a lot of bad choices with this one. I love my experience with 60s cars, that's why I love to tinker with them. They are a pain in the ass, but now with dealing with people that are pain in the asses too, just takes the fun out of it.

I will buy a Charger one day again, with old paint pealing off, dripping out the rear main, bad brakes and all. But I will have fun with it, the hell with perfect sheet metal cars that shine in the sun.
I WANT a Piece of SH1T that runs.

Thank god my Spirit make me happy, and it's worthless.