The Project '69 440-6 Pak Engine Thread

[bill440rt]

Finally, the forever long wait is over and my 440 engine finally went off to the machinist not too long ago. He's going thru the 440 engine that came with the '69 Charger I'm building, so I thought I would post the engine progress here.
Special thanks to Firefighter (Ron), who gave me some great tips and advice on putting this combo together. 
Thanks to Brian who also helped seal the deal on my decision with the trans, more on that later. 
I just found out from the machinist that the 30-over block needs to be punched out again, 40-over. We're researching forged pistons right now, so I will update the thread as more progress continues.


Here's the recipe:
1) '70 cast block with internals: forged crank, 6-pak rods, etc., 40-over
2) Pro-Max 6-pak setup with their tunable "Max-Pak" carb baseplates. 6-pak setup has already been run, dyno'd, and tuned by Pro-Max.
3) Lunati Voodoo 60303 cam.
4) Edelbrock RPM 60929 heads.
5) MSD pro billet dist. with the MP MSD 6AL box.
6) Melling HV oil pump.
7) Carter HV "hemi-style" mech fuel pump.
MP 7-qt hemi oil pan and pick up.
9) Professional Products Powerforce harmonic balancer.
10) Mancini Racing aluminum HV water pump, housing, and timing chain.
11) Pistons: Keith Black 40-over forged flat-tops
12) Serpentine belt system, custom made by Moparts member Duster499 (thanks, nitrousn!  )

Exhaust will be a TTI system with their 1-7/8 headers, 2-1/2 H-pipe exhaust, Dynamax muffs.
Thanks again to Brian, I've decided on a Keisler auto OD system vs the Gear Vendors. Although the Keisler is a big chunkachange up front, it's actually more cost effective in my case of having to rebuild or purchase every other component I would need.

The engine will be going to the dyno shop once assembled. From there I'll take it home & paint, detail, assemble the accessories, and install it in the car.
Stay tuned...

[Just 6T9 CHGR]

Damn Bill at this rate you will be bringing TWO cars to Carlisle! 
let me know when you need a hand putting the bullet in the chamber

[bill440rt]

There will be ice cold Coronas waiting in the fridge, my friend! 

[firefighter3931]

There will be ice cold Coronas waiting in the fridge, my friend! 

Sounds like my kind of party ! 

Sounds like a fantastic build....looking forward to your progress Bill. 

Once it's all built and dynoed we can archive it in the Proven Combo's Section. 




Ron

[Runner]

sounds like a real fun car,  what do you do for a converter?  what trans do they use? 

[bill440rt]

sounds like a real fun car,  what do you do for a converter?  what trans do they use? 

The kit comes with the converter. Actually, it comes with EVERYTHING. The kit is based on a GM trans, with 3 power levels based on your engine torque. Once my engine is dyno'd, I'll know which kit I need to buy. My hunch is I'll need their Stage 2 kit.
BTW, if you're a Moparts member (I am as well), they offer free shipping.

Link:
http://www.keislerauto.com/index.php?/vmchk/1966-1970-b-body-stage-2-550-lb-ft-automatic-overdrive-kit.html

[Runner]

are they a lock up converter?  can you get different stall speeds?

[bill440rt]

Yes, and YES!
Go to the "Kit Components" tab, everything is explained there.

Now, back on the engine topic. My machinist left me a message today, pistons have been ordered. I will update the thread tomorrow with more engine info and progress. 

[Charger-Bodie]

Good deal Bill! One step closer! Before you know it youll be trying to drive 3 Chargers at once!!

[Just 6T9 CHGR]

Good deal Bill! One step closer! Before you know it youll be trying to drive 3 Chargers at once!!

Thats where his friends step in  

[Charger-Bodie]

Good deal Bill! One step closer! Before you know it youll be trying to drive 3 Chargers at once!!

Thats where his friends step in  

Makes since. 

[bill440rt]

I updated the thread with the engine "recipe". Looks like we are going with a set of Keith Black forged 40-over pistons. The machinist is ordering them today, hopefully they'll be in by the end of this week or early next.
The block is all cleaned, and he's going to start prepping the deck, align-honing it, prepping rods, etc.

[bill440rt]

It's been a l-o-n-g time since the last update.
Engine is still at the machine shop. He's not the fastest guy, but he's very busy & does impeccable work. The short block should be assembled in two weeks or so. It will be painted and then the bolt-on "goodies" will go on prior to going off to the dyno shop.

Just received my set of Firecore 8.5's from Firefighter today (Thanks, Ron!  ). They are awesome. 

Also, just placed the order for the Keisler Auto-OD setup. I went with their Stage 2 trans kit. Estimated delivery time is 3-4 weeks. That's OK, it gives me some more time to make some room in the garage and finish off the engine.

Stay tuned...

[Musicman]

  Keep us posted on the progress 

[firefighter3931]

Bill, that 69 is going to be quite the power cruiser....really looking forward to the progress on this project. 

Glad you like the Firecore's....i knew you would. 



Ron

[resq302]

And this is going to be the wifes car Bill?  She is going to have more power that your charger?  Just doesn't seem right.   

[b5blue]

Hey Bill when do we see photos of all this good stuff!!!!?

[bill440rt]

And this is going to be the wifes car Bill?  She is going to have more power that your charger?  Just doesn't seem right.   

WIFE'S car??? Whoever said THAT??   
Well, at least she picked out the color.     Eh, if she can't handle it I guess I'll just have to drive it. What's a husband to do? 

Hey Bill when do we see photos of all this good stuff!!!!?

Hey b5!!
Do a search for Project '69. Lots of good stuff!

[bill440rt]

Well.... it happened.

Lots of big boxes from Keisler finally  showed up on my doorstep last week! 
Trans kit is here, everything looks real nice. Two small issues: 1) They forgot the selector toggle switch that let's you select Street and Performance mode, and 2) No driveshaft. Turns out, they want you to install the engine & trans, then take a measurement as instructed in the manual. I then send them the measurement, they send me a balanced driveshaft. Makes sense due to the tolerances these cars have. Instruction manual is very well written and laid out. Looks fairly simple, just a lot of little steps. Spoke to them about the switch, it's on backorder & will be here very soon.

TTI exhaust has been ordered thru Promax. Ben from Promax is a GREAT individual to deal with. Ordered up the 1-7/8" polished ceramic headers, 2-1/2" X-pipe exhaust with Dynomax Ultra-Flows, capped off by their TTI polished tips. Should be here any day now.

Meanwhile, the machinist is draggin' ass. Short block has been there since mid-December, machine work is half done with it sitting on the floor still.     My wife is due with our second child in a mere 2 days, so I have no idea when this will get done now. I have everything else pretty much ready to go.
Stay tuned...

[firefighter3931]

Short block has been there since mid-December, machine work is half done with it sitting on the floor still.     My wife is due with our second child in a mere 2 days, so I have no idea when this will get done now. I have everything else pretty much ready to go.
Stay tuned...

Time to pay him a visit with the BFH  and get his AZZ in gear ! 

Good luck with the Baby, Bill....hope everything goes smoothly. 



Ron

[Musicman]

Engine is still at the machine shop. He's not the fastest guy, but he's very busy & does impeccable work.

the machinist is draggin' ass. Short block has been there since mid-December, machine work is half done with it sitting on the floor still. 

Sounds just like my machinist

Actually I shouldn't say that... The only reason my machinist is dragg'n ass, is because he knows I don't need the block just yet. He'd finish it up ASAP if I told him I was ready for it. Every time I stop in to see him he asks me when I want it done

[resq302]

Bill,

If your engine shop is giving you a hard time, try the guy we have used for our elky.  Nick's Machine in the Brunswick area.  If you want his number PM me.

Brian

PS- hope everything goes with will the baby and wife.  Guess you won't be at E-town.   Jen and I are still trying for our second child as she has had 2 miscarriages the last 2 times.

[bill440rt]

Thanks guys.
Last time I saw the machinist I gave him some money for the new pistons, dropped off some parts, & reminded him when my wife was due. Told him it would be really nice to have the engine back home before then, because I don't know what my time is gonna be like after the baby comes. Probably nil.

Anyway, I'm going to follow Ron's advice & pay him another visit. Ron always seems to give the best advice. 

[b5blue]

Same thing I went through also.I was behind a Vett overhaul and the guy kept adding work he was going to do to Chucks list...on top of regular work a day repair shop stuff, in the end I had to rush like hell to get the car "online" and drive it "limping" to work. Keep getting face-time with him Bill, phone calls don't work.(at least in my case..Chuck was VERY kind to me on $$!)

[Just 6T9 CHGR]

Nothing like getting new wrapped up bundles...in more than one way in your case
Good luck!

[bill440rt]

This has gotta be the slowest progressing engine thread on this 'site.  

Well, good news! The short block is finally together and painted!  
I've had good results from using simple Dupli-Color engine primer in the past, so I gave it one coat. I decided to paint it using Eastwood's Hemi-Orange Ceramic Engine Paint. Eastwood says it's a urethane, and it uses a hardener & reducer. Kinda smells like an acrylic enamel. It's hard to see in the photos, but the stuff has a pretty nice gloss to it.

I dropped off the Eddy heads as well, now it's time to start bolting on the good shiny stuff. Hopefully it will be off to the dyno shop in the next few weeks.
Keep ya's posted...

[b5blue]

Looks Great Bill!! 

[Musicman]

This has gotta be the slowest progressing engine thread on this 'site. 

What are you talking about? I started mine so long ago that I can't even find it anymore to update it 
At least it seems that way sometimes...

Looks like things are coming together nicely for you... Looking Good

Keep us posted

[firefighter3931]

That looks great Bill ! 

Looking forward to the dyno results 



Ron

[b5blue]

ME TO!!! 

[resq302]

Hey Bill!  Progress is always a good thing.  Better than regress.  Besides, you have your family and the other 2 cars to have fun with when you are not working on that green monster.   

[bill440rt]

OK, dropped of the intake/6-pack setup & some other parts yesterday.
Turns out, he checked the CC's on the new 84cc Eddy heads, and they measure 88. I also checked with Ben at Promax on this, he confirmed that the tolerances on these aren't the greatest. (No, they're not incorrectly boxed.  )
So, they will be milled down to get a better compression ratio. He needed the intake to check the angles to make sure they line up.
Hopefully we'll have some heads on soon! 

[b5blue]

!!!!!! How can they get away with this? Thank goodness you are checking everything Bill!  (I'm leaning more and more to MoPar aluminum 452's) (insert rant here)....

[bill440rt]

Ahhhhhh.... the light at the end of the tunnel is visible.
Heads, intake, etc are on. The stock valvetrain was good, so most was re-used (rockers, etc).
I went over to mock up the serpentine kit to make sure everything lines up. Everything bolted on real nice, but there is a slight clearance issue with the air cleaner baseplate and the a/C compressor. We're talking about 1/4" inch or so, nothing a little trim wouldn't fix. I'll probably trim a little by the distributor just to be sure, also.

I'm only a PCV valve & grommet away from getting this to the dyno. Not sure why I forgot about those two little items, but hopefully by the end of this week or next I'll have some numbers. 

[bill440rt]

A few more...

[b5blue]

Looks sweet Bill! Boy clearance is close, how are you running fuel line? 

[Musicman]

 

We'll be wait'n on those numbers of course...

[firefighter3931]

Bill, that's looking real sharp !  The billet pullies are awesome !!! 



Ron

[resq302]

Bill, you better keep that engine and your car inside that bubble.  Otherwise you are going to spend as much time polishing the alluminum on that engine as you are on the rest of the car.   Should look really nice with the sublime green all around it inside the bay.

[Just 6T9 CHGR]

Yummy!! 

[TexasStroker]

I approve of the progress 

[bill440rt]

Bill, you better keep that engine and your car inside that bubble.  Otherwise you are going to spend as much time polishing the alluminum on that engine as you are on the rest of the car.   Should look really nice with the sublime green all around it inside the bay.

No bubble needed. 
I cleared most of the polished stuff with this: http://www.eastwood.com/ew-extreme-diamond-clear-8-oz.html
This stuff is friggin' expensive, but worth it. This stuff you spray out of a small touch up gun. Their aerosol clear was garbage, this stuff is great. I even brushed it on the intake, it flows out & is invisible. Good to 600 degrees, or so they say. I left the valve covers, A/C compressor, and alternator alone, those are easy enough to polish.

I should have my pcv & grommet by tomorrow.
Stay tuned...

[bill440rt]

Well, today was the day!! The engine was fired for the first time on the dyno. I'll just get right to the numbers. Peak horsepower was 518, peak torque was 572 on another pull. I was very pleased.

A few problems here & there, but overall the engine performed very well. I should have it back at the house early next week. Wrenches will soon be flying. Any helpers available? I have a fridge full of beer if that entices anyone. 

Quick question: I found out the hard way that there is no heat crossover for a choke with the Edelbrock RPM heads. What should I do for a choke? Promax stated they simply don't run a choke & remove the center carb butterfly. I'd like to run one if possible.
Any suggestions?

[b5blue]

Bill I believe there is a manual choke conversion for Holley 2300 carbs. Congratulations on some strong numbers I new you would do great  If I was up there I'd help beer or no!   

[firefighter3931]

Well, today was the day!! The engine was fired for the first time on the dyno. I'll just get right to the numbers. Peak horsepower was 518, peak torque was 572 on another pull. I was very pleased.

A few problems here & there, but overall the engine performed very well. I should have it back at the house early next week. Wrenches will soon be flying. Any helpers available? I have a fridge full of beer if that entices anyone. 

Quick question: I found out the hard way that there is no heat crossover for a choke with the Edelbrock RPM heads. What should I do for a choke? Promax stated they simply don't run a choke & remove the center carb butterfly. I'd like to run one if possible.
Any suggestions?

Congrats Bill....those are excellent power numbers. That VooDoo cam really delivers huh ? 

You have to be really pleased given how mild the build is....should make for an awesome cruiser with the OD transmission. 

As for the choke....like Neal mentioned you can go with a manual choke but my guess is that once the engine is in the car you won't need it. Once you feather the throttle and let it warm up for a minute the engine will settle into a nice idle. The dyno has a constant supply of cool water so it's often difficult to get them up to temp quickly. In a closed system like you'll have in the car that just recirculates warm coolant the engine will come up to operating temp much quicker. I wouldn't worry too much about the choke until you get it into the car and try it out.

Post the dyno sheets when you get a chance, please. 



Ron

[bill440rt]

I can't thank you enough for your help & advice throughout this build, Ron.    I'm EXTREMELY pleased with those numbers, especially since it has basic 6-pack rods & stock rockers in it. I know I'm not out of the woods yet, though.

As for the choke, I'll wait until it's in the car like you suggest. I did look into some of the manual choke setups offered by Summit. That was a great tip, Neal.      I have to call Summit & Holley back on Monday to see if it will work with the center 6-pack carb, which by the way Summit says is NOT a Holley 2300?? I just want to cover my bases just in case I need to install one.
In the meantime, should I remove the center carb butterfly? When the engine shuts off the butterfly stays shut. We needed to zip-tie it open just so the engine would get max carb flow during the testing.

BTW, attached is screen shot of one of the pulls. This one had the peak horsepower, at 5500rpm. We didn't want to push the engine any higher, but the HP was still pulling and it wanted to go even more. I had to call Keisler today just to make sure the Stage 2 trans kit will handle this, they assured me it will.

[firefighter3931]

You're welcome Bill....allways glad to help out with an engine combination. 

For now just zip tie the choke plate until you decide what to do. My guess is that you'll be removing it. 

As for RPM....i'd throw a 5800 chip in the 6AL box and call it good. Hyd lifters and high rpm don't mix....you want to avoid lifter pump-up and valve float. 

Looking at your water temps (140*) on the screen it's easy to see why the engine was acting cold blooded.....there's not much chance it'll maintain those temps at WOT in the car. Once you get it installed between the fenders with a 180* thermostat it will warm up and run/idle better. 


Ron

[Just 6T9 CHGR]

Congrats Bill! 

[Charger-Bodie]

WOW Bill !!! That some great stuff! You are gonna have a blast wheeling that unit around.

[Musicman]

  CONGRATULATIONS BILL



Time, work, and patience has finally paid off 
Very Impressive Numbers   You should be real happy

Well, that's another one for the Proven Engine Builds

Mike

[resq302]

I think Bill is going to have a "new" favorite vehicle to drive.

[bill440rt]

THANKS ALL!! 

Well, I confirmed with Holley today that there is no optional choke setup available other than stock. At least as far as Holley is concerned. So, for now I'm just going to remove the center butterfly. I can always reinstall it if something becomes available in the future.

Engine should be at the house sometime this week. 

[Back N Black]

Congrats Bill! the end is near.