1969 Charger - shuts off

[4Bangin69]

I am the new owner of a 1969 Dodge Charger 383 4 barrell and need some suggestions.

The car sat for 8 years before I got it and attempted to start it.  Just recently replaced the gas tank, fuel sending unit, fuel pump, filters, plugs, wires, new demon carb 750 cfm, msd ignition coil. The car will start and will idle at about 450 rpm but only for a few seconds.  I have adjusted the timing and cannot get it to idle higher than 450 without shutting off.  Could it be bad heads?

Thanks in advance. 

[tan top]

hello & welcome    ...  hmmm fuel pump push rod 

  , when the motor stops running , have you still got a spark ??

oh something completelty unrelated ..notice you have the mistery fire wall plug ... above the wiper motor  .. been a couple of threads on that ...

[4Bangin69]

I am completely new to this so please bear with me 

I would assume I still have spark since I can start the car..it just won't stay on and idles rough and shuts off quickly..how would I check this?

will do a search about the mistery plug. THANKS 

[tan top]

oh right it starts right up ,   could be the  ballast ristor

[4Bangin69]

forgot to add that was changed too...

[Sublime/Sixpack]

When it first fires up will it rev at all? Or just die?

[tan top]

  mixture too rich / lean in cold weather

[4Bangin69]

I cannot give it any gas or it will die and it dies within a few seconds without reving. 
We are in South Texas so I don't think it's due to cold weather.

[GreenMachine]

Will a Demon fit on a stock intake? Check the base of the carb and make sure it fits right. You could be sucking in a bunch of unmetered air.

If that's not it, I would disconnect the fuel line and put the end in a gas can. Crank the engine and make sure it's pumping gas. If it is, get a carb from a running engine and put it on to see if it'll start. Then you'll know the problem lies with the carb.

I've bought a Demon before and was disappointed in the quality control, Leaks everywhere. Make sure the needle and seat is letting fuel in and the float is right.   

[Ghoste]

Have you checked fuel flow into the carb?  Is it hard to restart after is shuts down or does it seem to need several turns before it fires again?

[tan top]

just noticed the pcv valve pipe on the right hand rocker cover not connected , is there a open vacuum on the base plate of the carb  will suck in too much air

[4Bangin69]

I'll check the fit of the carb.  It seems to fit well. All vacuums are sealed and closed off with caps.  Do I need to seal pcv? Will that make a difference?

There is no hesitation to start it up after it dies.


Thanks for all the help!

[tan top]

no not the pcv valve       !!!!  , just make sure the port on the carb is plugged

[demonpixel]

Hey there guys, this is 4Bangin's buddy; I was helping him in the attempt to get this baby runnin. I'm more familiar with LS1s but 69 Chargers are so beautiful it's a sin to not help someone working on it (and who doesn't love Hemis).

The previous carb was a Holley 4160 I think but I could be wrong - anyway do stock 383 Magnum intake manifolds have 4150 flanges? I'm pretty sure the Demon is on an adapter/spacer. Here's a pic:



Also, the harmonic balancer timing mark does something VERY weird when we point the timing light at it - the marker will jump around like crazy so we can't even tell what the timing is set at. Turning the dist cap to adjust the timing by a few degrees advanced or retarded causes the car to shut off.

4Bangin upgraded the ignition coil to an MSD Blaster 2 and upgraded the plug wires from 7.6mm to 8mm Accel.

Just wanted to follow this thread and contribute some of my notes as well.

[4Bangin69]

 

[Animal]

Did you disconect & plug the vacume advance tube when checking spark lead? , maybe the distributor/oil pump drive worn?

Good luck.

[4Bangin69]

Thanks guys for your help.. Do you meen I need to disconnet the spark plug and connect it to the vacume advanced on the distribertor? I may sound crazy but Im new to this.  Can you help me.. It may be the problem..

[ted]

SOUNDS almost like the timing chain has jumped time.

[4Bangin69]

Is that why the balancer jumps around like crazy...

  Its all over the place when we put the light on it.

[tan top]

SOUNDS almost like the timing chain has jumped time.

    was thinking along  them sort of lines , timing gear , especialy if it still has the stock nylon covered gears

[4Bangin69]

Everything looks completely stock.. That might be something i need to check.   

   Would you think it might be best to just pull the engine and have it rebuilt? I don't want to do anything radical to it just want to mainly keep it stock. That wouldn't be to much $$$? My neighbor said if I pull it and tear it apart myself  it might cost under 800.00 with some parts. I'm thinking about buying a engine puller and doing it this weekend. I really don't know what the engine is like. I'm the third owner and from what the past owner said he never had it rebuilt and the previous before that he never had it rebuilt.
  The milage on the dash says 80,798 I'm thinking it has already turned once..

Here are a few more pics of the engine

[RD]

first thing i would do is this:

bring the #1 piston to TDC on its compression stroke

check to see if the rotor is pointing to the #1 sparkplug wire lead on the dist cap

if it is not.. tell us where it is pointing.

if it is, then your timing is on target, and if that is the case...

it may be a fuel issue..

Fuel: replace carb with a running one, if not the problem, then put a fuel pressure gauge to check fuel line pressure, if read below 4 psi, check to ensure fuel pump rod is not worn and is actually fully activating the fuel pump lever to ensure proper functioning; if not the problem then replace fuel pump, if still not the problem.. pull the timing cover and check fuel pump rod cam lobe to ensure it is not worn (now is the time to check the timing gears for wear or misalignment).

let us know when you get to the timing set, if you get there.

i believe its fuel or timing...

[Sublime/Sixpack]

As far as having the engine rebuilt, I think you really should talk with a few good machine shops to get an idea of what a good rebuild will cost you. It'll be more than 800 dollars and just some parts.

[4Bangin69]

Thanks guys for all your help. I will keep you posted on what happens. I'm planning to work on it this weekend. Looks like I will be doing  research this week.

[Back N Black]

Start with the basics, If you have fuel,timing set up, spark and good compression it should fire up. That is what i would check before pulling the engine. If it starts up and it blowing lots of blue smoke, no power and lot of internal noise then think about pulling the engine. 

[Sublime/Sixpack]

Just some thoughts:
- Do you know if it was running well when the previous owner parked it eight years ago?
- What carb was on it when you bought it?
- What did the spark plugs look like that you removed? Tan, black, or crusty?
- What condition was the engine oil when you bought the car? Dirty, clean, milky?
- Have you removed a valve cover to look at the rockers and Shafts? Clean, or sludge?
- Have you performed a compression test on all the cylinders?

These things can give you an idea of the condition of the engine.

Another thing you could do is remove the distributor cap, then with a flex handle (breaker bar) 4" extention and the proper size of socket to fit the crankshaft bolt, turn the engine in one direction until the rotor (dist.) starts to rotate, now carefully move the flex handle in the opposite direction (to remove any slop in the flex handle, ext. and socket), make note of where the end of the flex handle is and slowly apply pressure to rotate the crankshaft while watching for the rotor to again start to move.  Make note of how far you had to move the end of the flex handle. 
I just did this to a rebuilt '69 383 engine in my garage that has only been run maybe an hour and a half.  The end of the 16 inch flex handle only moved a couple inches.  This can be a reference for you when you check yours.  If you have to rotate your crank alot farther than I did to change direction of the rotor, then you know your timing chain is well worn and should be replaced.
If you're able to determine the actual condition of the engine this may help you to decide whether of not to pull and rebuild it.
I hope this makes sense to you, I'm a hands on person myself, I do better actually working on them then trying to give advice over the internet.

Good luck and let us know how it goes.

[GreenMachine]

With the distributor out, you can look in there towards the front of the engine and see the timing chain. That's how I verified mine jumped time shortly after I bought it.   

[4Bangin69]

- Do you know if it was running well when the previous owner parked it eight years ago?  I know that he had it running...I don't know for how long though.  I think someone stole the battery out and he didn't buy a new one   ...
- What carb was on it when you bought it?  The holley was on it when I bought it and it did start by adding fuel directly to the carb.  It shut off after trash from the fuel lines/tank got into the carb.  Then I replaced the fuel system and carb (demon).
- What did the spark plugs look like that you removed? Tan, black, or crusty? Black and crusty
- What condition was the engine oil when you bought the car? Dirty, clean, milky?  very very dirty
- Have you removed a valve cover to look at the rockers and Shafts? Clean, or sludge? not yet..will do that this weekend
- Have you performed a compression test on all the cylinders? no - how would I do that?


Thanks again for all your help.  I look foward to working on the car this weekend and getting this problem solved.

[Sublime/Sixpack]

Well, if you decide to do a compression check of the cylinders you'll need a compression guage for starters, and you'll want to remove all the spark plugs, throtte plates in carb open, then . . . . . . . .  You know what? I think it might be best if you purchase an Automotive manual that tells you step by step how to do these things.  Read through it, digest the information (there are illustrations too) get the tools and equipment needed then start over on your engine.  That general knowledge (Theory) from the manual should help you a lot. 

By the way, I like your car! If you were in my neighborhood I'd come help you with it.

[4Bangin69]

Hey thanks man...

Last night I started pulling the front of the engine. Im gonna replace the timing chain and sprocket, im thinking that is never been done. The car has maybe 80k miles or 180k I really dont know. Maybe thats why the time is all over the place on the balancer.

Im gonna order a new chain and sprocket from summit today..

Ill let you guys know how it goes.

[4Bangin69]

Im just gonna pull the whole engine.... 

[Sublime/Sixpack]

Probably a wise decision. 

[4Bangin69]

Hey Guys,

I pulled the harmonic balancer, the chain and sprockets. I found something very interesting with the balancer, there was a small groove inside the balancer.


It kinda looks like the balancer might have slipped over on the crank key, but when I pulled the harmonic balancer off it was lined up correctly.

  The chain was also a little loose, but I'm really not sure how much slack it supposed to have.

Also take a look at the crank key, is it supposed to be straight or slanted like in the picture? Is it supposed to come off?

[tan top]

don't  rotate any thing  , but put the chain back on , now turn the motor with a breaker bar & find TDC on number 1 cylinder , now have a look at are the timing marks where they should be , ..... also the cam gear  does it have nylon covered teeth ... are they all intact

[4Bangin69]

Thanks tan top... I will do that.. Is the crank snout key supposed to be slanted like in the picture? does it come off?

[rt green]

it will look like that when you take off the balancer

[70 500]

If ur timing checked out when cylinder one was at TDC, and ur getting compression then like some of the others said you've got to have a fuel issue, most common thing ive found on older vehicles. Sitting for long periods of time the tanks tend to rust and the fuel goes rotten, you could pop the tank out pretty easy and see what it looks llike inside.

[Steve P.]

The key can be tapped back into place with a small hammer. Most times they are not really loose, but now and then you may find one just ground down a bit to make it slip in and out easier. As long as it is still a slightly pinched fit you are good to go.

You should place the gear and chain back on and bring the #1 piston up to top dead center now. Wait till your new parts arrive and then pull them. Any time you are doing something new you should try NOT to take things all apart and then rely on memory. Looks like you have a pretty god camera, so I suggest taking as many pics as you can to have the factory reference.

Make sure you order a timing cover gasket and seal kit along with the chain/gear kit.

Also I am hoping that if you placed the order already they are sending you a 1-BOLT cam gear.

[Tilar]

Sounds to me like a plugged or collapsed exhaust system.

[4Bangin69]

I ordered the new timing chain and sprocket from summit yesterday, and some gaskets. I'm gonna order new hose's and vacuum lines, they look terrible. I'll take more pic's when I install it.

[440charger68]

my car did the same thing, it turns out the electronic choke got to hot and unwound, it caused my motor to have an extremely low idol and eventually killed it, so i guess if you havent tried it start messing with the choke 

[4Bangin69]

OK Guys I'm about to give up,  :shrug:

  I just can't find the problem, The past two weeks I have done some replacing of parts and some tuning. The car still idles low and when given fuel at  idle it still turns off. I have changed the timing chain and gears, and still the same problem, a friend and I just so happen to pull the new spark plugs out again to inspect them and they looked a little washed, and smudgy ,like unburnt fuel. Also when the car is running it seems that a little fuel is coming from the exhaust. It seems to be running lean. I have changed the jets in my 750cfm demon to 70 primary & 76 secondary, they were 76 and 84. All my vacuum lines are plugged and have new gasket seals around my carb. (No Leaks). Could it be a bad ignition system? Will the ignition control module cause a low spark?  Or if its a bad control module will the car even start? The car starts with no problem but just idles bad.. when given gas it sputters and shuts off.

I have
accel 8mm wires
auto lite plugs
a new msd blaster 2 coil
cap and rotor
Ballast resistor
All new fuel system Tank,sender,pump,filter


Any ideas?


Please help...

Thanks


 

[Steve P.]

Open up your exhaust at the manifolds or headers, which ever you have. It sounds like the exhaust may be somewhat plugged.. I take it YOU replaced all the fuel system yourself, right??  Very fresh gas??

Just went through this on a buddy's car that he bought NOT RUNNING. Ancient fuel was pumped out of the tank "THROUGH" the lines till the pump would no longer pump. Then he reinstalled the fuel line and put a few gallons of fresh gas in the tank. It would not start. He called me with lotttts of questions. I asked if he blew out the fuel lines or at least ran fresh fuel out to the dump tank. Answered "NO" to both. I told him to open up the exhaust and try to fire it up. It started right up, but ran like crap. I told him to keep it running and it would straighten itself out.     It did and once the motor was running strong he tightened the exhaust back up and the truck now runs perfect.

I tell you this story because even very experienced wrenches can overlook things sometimes...    It happens........ 

[4Bangin69]

Do you mean to take off the manifolds...? and start the car..

   I can say this when i bought the car the guy started the car of the old gas to show me that it still started.. It wasn't started in 8 years. you think that gas clogged something up?

[Steve P.]

NO, NEVER start a motor on BARE heads.... The pipe that comes off the manifolds. You just want some space for exhaust to be able to escape...


I am somewhat confused. I thought you said the entire fuel system is new??  If it was NEW when it was put away 8 years ago, it is NOT NEW... And in that case the fuel in that system IS your problem.... At least one problem.....

Old gas smells like HELL.... It will gum up a fuel system from stem to stern. Also, if you are UNLUCKY enough to get it to start on old gas it only means that it IS everywhere in the system now and it must be cleaned out or replaced.


Have you tried putting (FRESH) gas into the carb via the vent? 

If the system is full of 8 year old crap I would stop where you are and pinch off the fuel line at the rubber hose. This will keep anymore of that old crap from entering the carb. Then put fresh gas into the vent and fire it up. If it runs a bit better and stays running you will have your answer...


Good luck and let us know...


Steve

[4Bangin69]

That's gonna be really loud..

  By taking off the manifolds will help it? How..?

I didn't change the fuel lines or blow them out. Is there a additive to add to the fuel to clean out the valves, do you think that's the problem?

I really don't have the money for new heads or a valve job.

[4Bangin69]

The new fuel system is only 2 months old. The lines are the same that's about it. I have changed the filter twice in the past 2 months. The guy i bought it from cranked it on the old gas. It wouldn't start at first so he put fuel directly to the cab. it started fine and strong, I think by doing that it sucked up all the old fuel eventually and trashed the carburetor and valves. I towed the car home and changed the fuel because i couldn't get the car to stated again. Now it starts but runs like crap and wont stay on.

[Steve P.]

(((((((  DO NOT REMOVE THE MANIFOLDS )))))))...

Loosening the PIPES from the manifolds will relieve all back pressure.  This is NOT something to do on a permanent basis and YES, it will be loud.. This only needs to be done as a test for a short time...

Yes, the fuel lines are bound to be coked up with the nasty old fuel. The pump too. The lines can be broken loose at the fittings and blown out. This is also not a great fix, but a way to find out exactly what your problem is...

Old fuel is IMPOTENT.  It will jell up and clog the lines, pump, filter and carb. The old lines can probably be saved, but more than likely not worth it..

You should not have to pull the heads for this problem unless you find that you have very low compression.

[Musicman]

Sorry, haven't read the entire thread... just the first and last parts... very frustrating.

My first question to you would have been "Have you made the initial Idle Circuit adjustments on the carb yet?"

[Back N Black]

After reading most of the thread, i would say get a mechanic to look at it. If not you will keep throwing parts at it, trying to find the problem. 

[RD]

use seafoam to clean out your fuel system.. works really good.

[4Bangin69]

You know the wiring could be wrong...?  
 When I changed the spark plugs with new ones I noticed that the plugs on the distributor were crossed. I'm gonna check the firing order again. The timing might have jumped and the previous owner might have crossed the plugs to get it started again.

 I'm gonna check it again tonight...

I allready removed the timing chain and put a new one, but did not put it TDC before I pulled it off. I might have to do it all over again. Should the dots on the CAM gear and crank line up at 6 & 12 ?    Is there another way to check with out having to pull the front of the motor off again.

[69bronzeT5]

Did you ever get the thing running?

[TylerCharger69]

I'm in south Texas too....where are you located??   And....the mystery plug above the wiper motor....I think it has been concluded that its original purpose was for a manual washer pump.  Where the water hoses would go through the firewall.   Usually found on early 69's.   Correct me if I'm wrong though.

[lisiecki1]

i haven't read the whole thread, but i had a demon 600 on a 360 once upon a time and that thing was an SOB to tune....the "4 corner idle inserts" were just a pain in the a$$.....if you have the ability to do it, try running an eddy 750....much easier to tune.....and pull the fuel lines and flush them out....check for an inline fuel filter, which would probably need to be replaced due to the old gas in the system.....also, 450 rpm is quite low, try upping the idle speed adjustment......I'm in Sealy texas a little west of Katy....whereabout are you located?

[TylerCharger69]

Corpus Christi  here...

[lisiecki1]

Corpus Christi  here...

cool, my best friend used to live near corpus....he's from odom....

[4Bangin69]

Hey guys I haven't posted in a long while but I'm from Sugarland south west of Houston. i have finally pulled the engine and had it rebuilt.  Just this past weekend I pulled the tranny, and I'm taking that this week for a rebuild.