Remember when people bought new Muscle cars and left them outside?

[General_01]

My GT last week:

That's because your better car is in the garage.

[68beepbeep]

Years ago, we over built everything. We were learning the limits of products. Today, knowledge has put us at the edge of durability and not over. The steel today is crap. With the technology that we have today, cars will last longer but, when it starts to rust, it will fail fast. The steel today is soft and very thin. The cars of today, if they do end up as desired collectibles of the future, will need plastic restoration more then the steel. Back when our 40 year old cars were new we didn't depend on them as much as the cars of today. People years ago would junk or sell a car cheap because it looked out dated, most with less then 50,000 miles on them. Those guys that restored the '20s and '30s cars thought that a unit constructed car was a disposable car, WRONG.  So maybe, there's some hope for the cars of today. I don't think it will be on the scale of us boomers. But, such is the evolution of the automobile. ~Steve~

[Mike DC]

To be honest, that picture doesn't even make me look twice. There is a huge difference in the way modern cars are built versus the way our beloved classics were built. Not just Mopars, but all classic cars. It's a testament to days gone by. Since most people only had one and if they were really lucky two cars, the classics were built simply and reliably. Those cars were built to be driven. They were built tough; they were built to be fixed, quickly and inexpensively. This is the reason they are still around today.

Modern vehicles on the other hand are not. The average American gets a new car every 7 years. Most Americans have 3 or 4 cars in the driveway. When they are tired of the car they get rid of it. Modern cars are meant to be driven and tossed. In my mind modern cars are exactly what my dad has claimed for years, they are an appliance. Something to be used until it is no longer usable and thrown away. Granted there are those few modern cars that may someday be collectible and valuable. But the new Chargers and Challengers? Probably not.

In fact, I am considering purchasing an '09 or '10 Challenger after I graduate in the spring. And you know what? It will be the daily driver, if it gets me from point A to point B I will be satisfied. If I should be doing well and have the garage space, yes, I might keep the car inside but that would be more for convenience than continuance. However, there is a large chance that the car would sit in the driveway right next to the '96 Neon and I would feel no pain watching either be covered in rain, snow or ice. Cars have ceased to be an art form, an expression of who you are, they are simply mechanisms of transportation...

So true.  So true.

"Appliance" is a term I've also used to describe modern cars.  That's pretty much what they are.  You read the product reviews, you shop around, and you try not to get ripped too badly.  When it breaks (and you KNOW it's gonna happen, way too soon), you throw it away and buy another one.  You go get ripped off on a fresh one that you know is probably even crappier than the one it replaced.


----------------------------------------------------

Those guys that restored the '20s and '30s cars thought that a unit constructed car was a disposable car, WRONG.

I think they're right.  We're just killing ourselves trying to rebuild a disposable product with all this rust repair we do. 

It shouldn't be this difficult to fix corrosion on a product just to keep it in service.  Not if the product had provisions for anything resembling serviceability in its design.  (You could say, "Yeah, but after 40 years?"  And you've got a point.  But it didn't take 40 years to compromise the flooring or lower quarters of a 1969 unibody in the Rust Belt.  Some these cars were coming apart within 5 years or less.)



But the full-framed cars were no better, really.  They may have been more fixable because of the construction, but that construction ethos had nothing to do with preserving the cars.  It was just the way things were done at the time.  The rickety mechanicals and short-attention-span styling of those cars were already putting them in the junkyard without the unibodies giving out.   

   

[68beepbeep]

Love'm or bitch about 'em, there still "bad~ass". In the mid '70s I bought my first MoPar, a '69 Coronet 500. Gold with a black vinyl, black interior, buckets with a buddy seat, 383-2. I loved that car and drove it every day. By '78 I bought a '69 b-5 Road Runner. By the time '79 rolled into spring the quarters were rotting. When I was young my dad had a '57 Dodge. What a Beautiful car but, the top of the fenders were rotting away. As my dad put it "these cars rotted in the brochures". Sad but, we put up with it for the love of the cars.   ~Steve~

[Aero426]

In 35 years, guys will be looking back on this saying these guys were crazy, restorers will be begging for full quarters, and people will be turning SE's into SRT8's.

You can drag 60's car out of the weeds and rebuild them in your garage. I don't think that will be happening to today's cars in 35 years. Cars are no longer designed to maintained or rebuilt by owners. With all the electronics, and what will be total lack of factory service and support by then (if there even is a Chrysler), none of the cars of today will still be on the road.

I agree that the lack of electronics will be a major concern to keep future old cars on the road.   The ten year old Ferrari used car market is experiencing this problem right now as factory parts become exhausted.   Stuff has to be reverse engineered.   Modern cars like the Challenger are designed as appliances.

In the case of new cars like performance optioned Challengers, plenty are being put away and pampered.  The majority are not out there being beaten to death.   So I don't see a huge demand to restore them.  Because like the 1978 Indy Pace Car Vettes, you won't have to look very hard to find a nice one.

As far as rust goes, all the ones out on the road daily will rust like the old ones did, just a little slower.    Yes the corrosion protection is better, but like that old song says, rust never sleeps.

[Aero426]

well figgure a '68 Charger is 40 years old now, then adding 35 years to that it'll be 75 years old...
how many folks are currently into 75 year old cars?.. 

I'll make the argument that as you get older, your tastes may change a little, and you might want to expand your collection to include "something different".

Good looking high performance cars will always be in demand whether they are 75 years old or not.   If the car is something special now, someone will want it down the road, provided we can buy fuel to run it. 

The yellow car is a 1930 Stutz roadster.  Made in Indianapolis, It's got a straight 8 engine with an overhead cam, an exhaust cut out and it really bellows.  It's a car that has never been left out in the snow so to speak, and would have been bought new by a man with a few bucks in his pocket (kind of like an SRT-8).  The paint on it now was done in the early 1950's.   The current owner is about 45 years old and has a 400 Firebird in his garage as well.   The Cobra next to it is a real deal 427.   The Cobra owner has made it clear he wouldn't mind the Stutz in his own garage. 

[Ghoste]

And the percentage of the population who still know what a Stutz is would be what, 1.2? And of those maybe only 0.3 can afford one?  And of that number, the amount that are still used are maybe 9 or 10?  I'm only making up the numbers Doug obviuously but I'll stand by them as far as illustrating my point that as we age and die off there will be fewer and fewer and fewer people knowing or caring about these cars.  Gradually the passion we share becomes less about the "car" and more about the garage art they are growing into and the bragging rights that Big Wallet gets by showing his pals that he can afford this antique.

[Brock Samson]

yeah, well i'd like a Model J in the garage too,.. but I'm weird...  
is that a 365 GTB on the end there?..

[Aero426]

yeah, well i'd like a Model J in the garage too,.. but I'm weird...  
is that a 365 GTB on the end there?..

Yes, it is an extremely low miles 275 GTB-4. About 9000 miles, in the same family since almost new,  original paint, It has a ding in the passenger door from his mom opening a door into it when it was a new car.   Great looking car.  That ever so slight wear to the drivers seat leather gives it a totally honest feel.

[Aero426]

And the percentage of the population who still know what a Stutz is would be what, 1.2? And of those maybe only 0.3 can afford one?  And of that number, the amount that are still used are maybe 9 or 10?  I'm only making up the numbers Doug obviuously but I'll stand by them as far as illustrating my point that as we age and die off there will be fewer and fewer and fewer people knowing or caring about these cars.  Gradually the passion we share becomes less about the "car" and more about the garage art they are growing into and the bragging rights that Big Wallet gets by showing his pals that he can afford this antique.

My point was more about the stereotype image of the old car stuck in the mud.   There is a lot to the pre WW2  car hobby out there if you care to look.    www.prewarcar.com

Being a driver and an old restoration, on a good day, you could probably buy a car like that Stutz for 75k give or take a few bucks.  No it's not cheap, but its below the prices of a lot of 60's muscle too.   The upside of a car like that is it is still very much useable, and it will get you into almost any event anywhere in the world.    AND, it can still be repaired in your own garage. 

It really takes a ride in a pre-war performance car to plant the seed that you might want one.

[Ghoste]

Agreed, and I missed your point about the stereotype.  I'd suggest the stereotype lives with an enormous majority of the public though.

[Brock Samson]

 As I see it the problem with those old iron cars and allot of exotics too is the amount of care and feeding they require..
The F-1 Mclaren needs a rumored $100,000.oo tune up or that new Bugatti for example the Viron, allot of "supercars are like that, and the Old Prewar classics are simply intimidating... I'm simply not in that economic demographic. love them though, I drool looking at them  but like allot of super fine women I sure wouldn't want to have to put up with their "Crap".  way too high maintenance...
I think that one of the great things about our beloved chargers even a 4-speed HEMI DAYTONA is that I wouldn't be afraid to drive it and park it under normal conditions. Hell, they have a great big trunk and a back seat too!  (I don't concider San Francisco traffic normal conditions BTW) but that old stutz or even the Ferrari would make me wince leaving it out of sight let alone trying to negotiate SF Traffic let alone trying to find a parking spot long enough to fin the extra 18 inch nose.. ... even if i lived just outside Aspen Colo.
The new Chally SRT properly insured is about as good as it gets for New Cars, but i wouldn't put it in the same league as the finicky classics or super cars, and as far as mopar muscle is concerned to my thinking if a HEMI DAYTONA is a 10 the SRT Chally is a 6 at best.
what was the point again?..

[Mike DC]

     

IMHO modern exotics have basically jumped the shark these days.



The huge price, the bad everyday functionality, the costs of maintinence . . . modern $100,000+ exotics have just gone too far.  It's too small of a gain over a sub-$100,000 car that you can actually afford and live with. 

Back in the day a Ferarri might have only 2-2.5 times the price of a Camaro or Mustang.  Now it's more like 10 times as much. 



These days even the cars in rap videos and on the posters in teenage boys bedrooms are starting to shift away from exotics.  They're shifting towards the pricier versions of the normal Detriot & Japanese brands, which still have some semblance of reality about them.

[69_500]

     

IMHO modern exotics have basically jumped the shark these days.



The huge price, the bad everyday functionality, the costs of maintinence . . . modern $100,000+ exotics have just gone too far.  It's too small of a gain over a sub-$100,000 car that you can actually afford and live with. 

Back in the day a Ferarri might have only 2-2.5 times the price of a Camaro or Mustang.  Now it's more like 10 times as much. 



These days even the cars in rap videos and on the posters in teenage boys bedrooms are starting to shift away from exotics.  They're shifting towards the pricier versions of the normal Detriot & Japanese brands, which still have some semblance of reality about them.

I don't know about the numbers of things that used to be only 2 to 2 1/2 times that cost of a Camaro or a mustang. There were a few Camaro's that were very price, even back in 1969 some of them stickered over $7,500. And yeah a Ferrari was pricier, but today you would have to compare a Ferrari to a Viper or a Z06 Vette, and even then your still talking about 2 to 2 1/2 times the price.

[Mike DC]

I don't know about the numbers of things that used to be only 2 to 2 1/2 times that cost of a Camaro or a mustang. There were a few Camaro's that were very price, even back in 1969 some of them stickered over $7,500. And yeah a Ferrari was pricier, but today you would have to compare a Ferrari to a Viper or a Z06 Vette, and even then your still talking about 2 to 2 1/2 times the price.

That's kind of the point I was making.  Several decades ago, the same guy could expect to buy a new Chevrolet when he was 25 and he possibly buy a Ferarri later in his working career.  Today those two cars' owners are so far different on the socioeconomic ladder that they would probably never meet each other in their lives.

The Vipers & Corvettes (And Honda S2000s, and Acura NSXs, and Toyota Supras) are still real peoples' cars.  The same kid driving a new Camaro in his 20s can expect to maybe get a new Corvette in his 30s-50s with a little luck in his career and not too many overwhelming family expenses. 


These days the european top-level exotics are basically a million-dollar antique painting or something.  The owner doesn't buy a Ferarri just because he admires well-built machinery and classy fast cars, he buys it almost entirely because of the fashion statement that it makes.  They're not real cars anymore, and they're no longer built with real usage in mind. 

[superduperbee]

Another point perhaps worth mentioning here is that the cars we enjoy restoring now and the new Challengers are both for the same demographic; nostalgic Baby Boomers.  In 35 years there likely won't be many Boomers trying to do this anymore.  Yes, there will be a handful of todays young guns still into it assuming parts and fuel are available but will there be enough to warrant reproduction parts?  Will there be the interchange with other vehicles that we enjoy now to keep them going?  I'm thinking not.

Will they be restoring Hondas and Toyotas? Will those Kamikaze wings and ground effects fetch the same prices on ebay that Hemi 'Cuda hoods do now?

[General_01]

Will they be restoring Hondas and Toyotas? Will those Kamikaze wings and ground effects fetch the same prices on ebay that Hemi 'Cuda hoods do now?

I guess we won't know until the time comes, but that is a possibility.

[68charger383]

The problem is in 30 years you may have a few people into these 60 muscle cars, but the volume of cars will most likely exceed the people that want/have interest in them. I think to many of the muscle cars were produced and then saved compared to the 1928 model Ts of the world. Look at the prices of the cars from the 30s ,40s and 50s. You have the occasional superstar cars like the stutz or the 57 chevy, but most of the cars are selling for under $20K.

All of our cars were probably left out in the snow/rain, had a few cheerleaders in the back seat. They were cars used by young kids and then sold to younger kids a few times before we got our hands on them and made them into shrines. It's our skewed memories, higher disposable incomes and over inflated housing values that made them what they are today.  These cars are almost status symbols to people... a white picket fence and muscle car in your garage. 

[Ghoste]

You're right, they are a status symbol to aging baby boomers just as much as a Mercedes is a symbol to a rapper or a Stutz is a symbol to the Pebble Beach crowd.  And yes, I do think there will be some nostalgic Gen-Xer's or whatever they are called now who want to find an old Civic and fix it up like the one he had when he was 19.  I bet there will be as many of those as there will be people looking for 69 Charger parts in another 35 years.

[Aero426]

The problem is in 30 years you may have a few people into these 60 muscle cars, but the volume of cars will most likely exceed the people that want/have interest in them. I think to many of the muscle cars were produced and then saved compared to the 1928 model Ts of the world. Look at the prices of the cars from the 30s ,40s and 50s. You have the occasional superstar cars like the stutz or the 57 chevy, but most of the cars are selling for under $20K.

The real key to sustaining the collector car hobby is the availability to use them.  If we can get fuel, just about any car that is good looking, or a performance model, or has unique features will have somebody who wants it.    The era of the car is not the most important thing.    Every decade has a pretty good number of significant cars that remain in demand. 

Muscle will live on because the legend gets bigger as time goes on.  What is not to like about outrageous styling,  wild colors and tire frying performance? 

[Ghoste]

I hope you're right Doug.  In another 30 years I may no longer be allowed to drive but it'd be nice to have someone change my diaper once in a while and then roll me out to the street to watch some old cars cruising by in a parade or something.

[Aero426]

The ricer crowd will be interesting to see how that all matures and what will happen over the next couple of decades.    There's certainly truth in that we all want to go back to our youth.   In my mind the question will be the viability of being able to restore imports that for the most part were designed to be appliances with a myriad of electronic devices to fail over time.   Also, will those cars seem "exciting" as the owners mature?

[Ghoste]

I think they will still feel that way as they age.  I might be wrong but look at the number of tuner magazines on the shelves; somebody is buying them.  You get no argument from me that 60's supercars are much more exciting but in their day, I don't think the Big 3 saw them as much more than appliances at that time either.  They've proven to have the ability to outlast their designed lifespan and that is something the ricer cars have yet to do but only time will bear that out.

[Aero426]

I think they will still feel that way as they age.  I might be wrong but look at the number of tuner magazines on the shelves; somebody is buying them.  You get no argument from me that 60's supercars are much more exciting but in their day, I don't think the Big 3 saw them as much more than appliances at that time either.  They've proven to have the ability to outlast their designed lifespan and that is something the ricer cars have yet to do but only time will bear that out.

"Appliance" refers more to the designed-in complexity of the modern car.    Anyone with some basic mechanical background can work and trouble shoot on the older cars.    I sure can't say it's the same with the modern car.   Major electronic components on the newer cars could possibly become as important as sheet metal.   

[General_01]

It is all about nostalgia. What will take the youth of today back to their teen years. I think the Hondas and the Civics and such will live on. A new cottage industry will arise. In 20 years who knows what advances will be made. Aftermarket computer boxes that you can program with your $75 laptop. Mirror finish fart cans. Kits to make your hidden headlights not hidden(ala Mako Shark look of the Vettes). We all love these cars because we drove them or knew others who drove them while we were in school. The same will happen 20 years from now. Guys will be hiding how much they spent on that NOS trunk lid from their wives just like we do.