440source now selling Comp Cams 10 degree Super Locks

[Musicman]

I see that 440source is now selling and recommending the Comp Cams 10 degree Locks & Retainers as an upgrade for any head running greater than .500 lift on the valves.

http://440source.com/valveretainers.htm
http://440source.com/heads.htm

Apparently someone has been listening to the customer... 

[jerry]

they should be included on all their heads no charge.

[defiance]

There's no such thing as free - I'm guessing margins are relatively small on those heads, he probably buys in really large bulk and ends up payin $30 or something for the keepers and retainers that are on there now, and even dealer cost for the comp set are probably double that.

Still, that works out to adding around $50 or so to the final price of the heads.  It would definitely be a good deal for customers that need the better locks, and I think the quality improvement would be well worth it across the board.  IMO, anyway. 

[Musicman]

they should be included on all their heads no charge.

Why???  Does Eddy or anyone else give give you a set of 10 degree Comp Locks with their heads. I think not... and they've all had their share of issues with bad locks and keepers, but still they leave it up to you the customer to find and purchase upgraded replacement parts when required. At least these guys are laying the correct parts out there on the counter for you choose from.

[Runner]

to compare the locks and retainers on eheads to the stuff thats pulling through on the source heads is silly. one is a machined lock and one is a stamped lock. 

[firefighter3931]

they should be included on all their heads no charge.

Even if they have to bump the price up $100 it would save a lot of grief in the long run. 

to compare the locks and retainers on eheads to the stuff thats pulling through on the source heads is silly. one is a machined lock and one is a stamped lock. 

The E-heads come with top shelf hardware. The fit/interlock between the lock & retainer is far superior to the Stealth heads. Some of the problem is materials (cheap stamped lock) as well as the "Fit" of that lock in the retainer....anyone has disassembled both heads can see the difference. 

* The valvestem groove is not really designed to be load bearing...it's mainly there to locate the valvelock. The taper on the retainer has to match the taper on the lock....if it doesn't the load is placed on the groove & keeper and it will fail. 



Ron

[68n70]

Well, they may be late to the dance, but at least they are taking the initiative to fix a known problem.  I have to give them credit for that.  The heads are an otherwise nice alternative that I believe is as affordable as possible.  (And for all of us non-Chevy/Ford guys, we all can recognize that's a rarity!!)

[jerry]

68n70 ,you either work for 440 source or never read any of the post about their head problems.these heads should have been right to start with right out of the box. no excuses .sounds like cheap is starting to bite a lot of people in the butt.

[defiance]

I don't work with 440source.  In fact, I've had a pretty significant problem lately that is either trouble with their seal retainer or crank ... but that doesn't change the fact that what 68n70 said remains quite true.  I think the retainers could have been better - having just pulled mine off and swapped them for the comps, they're clearly not high-end.  But honestly, they're what I would expect on a $900 set of heads.  I'd still much rather he sell a $950 set of heads with good retainers, but he's stated that he sold over 1k set of heads in the first batch, probably at least another 1k since - and we've seen 2 drop valves.  Dropping valves is a serious problem, but that's a failure rate of somewhere around .1-.2% - the range where it's just easy enough to miss during testing.
Point being, these are intended to be a budget set of heads, I don't think one production issue like this represents "cheap" in context, just something consumers should keep in mind when considering them.

[bull]

I may have missed this in the other thread but is there a compression difference between the 7 and 10 degree locks/keepers?

[68n70]

Jerry,
No I don't work for 440source and yes I've read the threads about the problems.  That's not the point. The point is we've finally got some options when it comes to heads (and a lot of other parts too!) that we didn't have a few years ago and I think it's great!  I can remember when the only option for a performance head was to spend a bunch of money on worn out cast iron heads or choose from a very limited selection of mega dollar aftermarket ones.  So you have to put a hundred bucks more in them, big deal!  You still have a brand new performance aluminum head for what you'd probably end up sticking in the old stockers. They aren't sticking their heads in the sand: they've recognized the problem and are telling you what you need to do.  And as most any engine builder I've ever talked to will tell you, ANY head (cheap or not, new or used) should be gone through and inspected before you put them on an engine. 
I guess what I'm trying to say is for years I envied the Ford and Chevy guys' ability to have a good selection of affordable parts and somebody like 440source comes along and sticks their necks out to offer us a little of the same, well let's just say I certainly appreciate it.  After all, our market isn't NEARLY as big as the brand X guys!

[jerry]

that's all very nice but at who's expense? why do mopar people think they have to accept untested substandard parts at their expense from any manufacturer? this is 2008 and i expect more quality then 10 yrs ago.are people so desperate for these parts to buy anything that comes down the pike? i have a 38 year old 440 in my 38 year old car and never had any trouble with the heads. now i want to build another 440 38 years later and don't trust the new technology. whats wrong with this picture?thanks to all the post on here about certain parts not just engine parts  i haven't wasted any money or time on questionable parts.i now have 19,000 miles on my out of the box rpm heads.that's what i like about this web site .all kinds of information.

[68n70]

Good for you Jerry!  I'm glad there working out for you!

[Musicman]

to compare the locks and retainers on eheads to the stuff thats pulling through on the source heads is silly. one is a machined lock and one is a stamped lock. 

The E-heads come with top shelf hardware. The fit/interlock between the lock & retainer is far superior to the Stealth heads. Some of the problem is materials (cheap stamped lock) as well as the "Fit" of that lock in the retainer....anyone has disassembled both heads can see the difference. 

* The valvestem groove is not really designed to be load bearing...it's mainly there to locate the valvelock. The taper on the retainer has to match the taper on the lock....if it doesn't the load is placed on the groove & keeper and it will fail. 


Ron

Take a look over at Moparts... The Eddy's are not perfect either... Yes, they still pull through when used incorrectly, just like any other brand... Machined parts are usually better than stamped, I think everyone knows this, but a 7 degree lock is still a 7 degree lock... good for the basics, but not designed for high lift or high spring pressures... That's why they make the 10 degree lock systems in the first place. I think that most folks here require a 10 degree lock setup, and that's what we should be concerned with, not who uses the best (inferior 7 degree system) on their production heads. 

[defiance]

A failure rate this low is not at all substandard for a first run.  It's not a good thing, but again, it's far from substandard.

You go on about your eddies, and that's nice and all - but take a look at the first run of victors!  Those things were twice the price of these, and had major issues first run. 

Does that make them substandard?  No, it makes it a first run!

[jerry]

i compared the different aftermarket heads  for my last rebuild and went with MP E built heads after reading all the engine post that talked about heads on dodge charger.com .my way of thinking is that if the 906 heads lasted 38 years the new 2008 technology MP E HEADS will last a long long time. i didn't feel that way about the heads you are talking about.the extra money spent for the E heads was well worth it.i don't have to worry about driving around the block and trashing my $8000. engine   i can'afford to take that kind of chance.this is a good place to come for info on whats hot and whats not.

[firefighter3931]

to compare the locks and retainers on eheads to the stuff thats pulling through on the source heads is silly. one is a machined lock and one is a stamped lock. 

The E-heads come with top shelf hardware. The fit/interlock between the lock & retainer is far superior to the Stealth heads. Some of the problem is materials (cheap stamped lock) as well as the "Fit" of that lock in the retainer....anyone has disassembled both heads can see the difference. 

* The valvestem groove is not really designed to be load bearing...it's mainly there to locate the valvelock. The taper on the retainer has to match the taper on the lock....if it doesn't the load is placed on the groove & keeper and it will fail. 


Ron

Take a look over at Moparts... The Eddy's are not perfect either... Yes, they still pull through when used incorrectly, just like any other brand... Machined parts are usually better than stamped, I think everyone knows this, but a 7 degree lock is still a 7 degree lock... good for the basics, but not designed for high lift or high spring pressures... That's why they make the 10 degree lock systems in the first place. I think that most folks here require a 10 degree lock setup, and that's what we should be concerned with, not who uses the best (inferior 7 degree system) on their production heads. 

Well, just a tidbit of information for everyone following this thread ; My E-heads have all the stock hardware, springs/7* locks/retainers. The 446 was beat on mercifully for 2 days on the dyno making 85 dyno passes rpm's to 6500 testing several different cam/header/carb & intake manifold combinations. The cam is a very healthy custom Solid with .580 gross lift and 264@.050 duration. The locks and retainers are fine. 

My point is that a properly fitting 7* lock with a good quality retainer is fine for allmost anything most guys on this board would ever run. A Solid roller with 250lbs on the seat and 550lbs over the nose will require a "better" part...no doubt. It's important to make sure the "fit/interface" is good and with good quality machined locks and chromemoly retainers is sufficient. 

Generally speaking, the matched Comp retainers and locks fit together better so doing this upgrade is a worthwhile venture given the quality of the supplied 440Source hardware. The Stealth heads are not in the same ballpark from a performance standpoint (intake & exhaust flow) and the hardware is not as good, both of which are reflected in the price.



Ron

[68n70]

The Stealth heads are not in the same ballpark from a performance standpoint (intake & exhaust flow) and the hardware is not as good, both of which are reflected in the price

Ron,
That surprises me.  I thought from some of the proven engine combos and flow bench numbers I've seen that the performance was fairly similar???

[firefighter3931]

The Stealth heads are not in the same ballpark from a performance standpoint (intake & exhaust flow) and the hardware is not as good, both of which are reflected in the price

Ron,
That surprises me.  I thought from some of the proven engine combos and flow bench numbers I've seen that the performance was fairly similar???

The Stealth heads typically peak out ~250cfm on the intake while the E-heads go ~280cfm. Ported they both have the same potential becuase the port layout is near identical. 



Ron

[68n70]

The Stealth heads typically peak out ~250cfm on the intake while the E-heads go ~280cfm. Ported they both have the same potential becuase the port layout is near identical.

Gotcha!  Thanks.

[Musicman]

My E-heads have all the stock hardware, springs/7* locks/retainers. The 446 was beat on mercifully for 2 days on the dyno making 85 dyno passes rpm's to 6500 testing several different cam/header/carb & intake manifold combinations. The cam is a very healthy custom Solid with .580 gross lift and 264@.050 duration. The locks and retainers are fine. 

The simple fact that your hardware has not failed does not mean that all Eddy hardware is infallible... all evidence points to the contrary. There are thousands of other heads out there running stock 7 degree sets without issue as well, but that does not make them bullet proof either, as we've seen. Comp Cams advertising for their 10 degree lock sets simply states that...

Wider angle (10°) locks better distribute the ever increasing valve spring loads over the retainer than typical 7° locks, reducing the chance of “pull-through” failure.

Obviously "Pull Through" is a well documented issue in performance applications... regardless of manufacture. Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against Eddy heads... All things being equal, Eddy’s are superior to the 440source heads right out of the box, but not as good as some others. I'm not here to push one brand over another, I just want to help people make informed decisions in an unbiased manner, utilizing the available facts.

440source heads are at the bottom of the food chain here... Their imported, they flow less than the Eddy's out of the box, and they use really cheap locks and retainers in my opinion. On the plus side however... with just a little work they will flow just as well as any Eddy head, their a lot cheaper than Eddy's and therefore the Locks & Keepers can be changed out with better hardware than the stock Eddy's and still be well under budget. You can even purchase them fully ported for the same or less than the cost of the stock Eddy's... However there is still no getting around the fact that they are imported... Some folks are on a tight budget however and they just don't have much of a choice.

This thread was started to inform people that 440source has recognized an issue with their product (thanks to customer feedback) and has done something about it. Not to incite an argument over who produces the best for less. Yes, it would be nice if 440source just started selling their heads with the 10-degree locks & keepers already installed, but I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for that to happen. Not to mention the fact that if they were to start selling them complete with 10-degree Comp Cam lock sets as standard equipment, that would move them up the food chain considerably, and there are many folks that wouldn't be to happy about that either.

Bottom line... It's a cheap upgrade for any head that goes a long way toward greater peace of mind.

[Runner]

i copied this  from the moparts tech archive.   for those that dont know fast68plymouth is dwayne porter from porter racing heads. very bright guy.  michael doty, does alot of trick stuff,  biulds unreal race cars and is a perfectionist like no other.       this is a pretty old artical  and it was mostly about locks and retainers.    when i upgraded my springs to the isky 8005a springs on my e heads i reran my locks and retainers sence dwayne told me they would be fine ( bought the springs from him so he could have just sold me new locks and retainers). 

   on a side note ive always loved michaels comment about biulding a 5000 dollar motor that runs like a 2500 dollar motor.

Michael Doty
Moparts Member
Posts: 2233
From: T F, MT USA
Registered: Nov 1999
posted 12-16-2002 08:59 PM

With that "medium" spring pressure I wouldn't hesitate to use 7º parts, have done it alot in the past and have seen no problems yet.
There are no guarantees ever with any parts, but in my opinion there are too many times when parts are bought "just in case". Pretty soon you have a $5,000 engine that runs like the $2,500 engine it should have been. Although I often use what I have on hand if it fills the bill, so I can see myself doing what Jamesc did.

The 7º parts definately wedge in there tighter, on a 800# plus spring I would hate to see how hard they come apart. The 10º stuff comes apart without much of a fight.

=====================================

jamesc
Moparts Member
Posts: 4180
From: Peoples Republic of New Jersey
Registered: May 2001
posted 12-16-2002 09:13 PM

quote:
-------------------------------------------
Pretty soon you have a $5,000 engine that runs like the $2,500 engine it should have been.
--------------------------------------------

some words of wisdom there...how bout the $12,000 engine that runs like the $6000 engine...
i've got one of each

=======================================

Dduster
Moparts Member
Posts: 731
From: Livermore, CA
Registered: Dec 2000
posted 12-16-2002 10:30 PM

A person I know did drop a valve in his car with the 7* lock setup. He believes the valves had gone soft, too many high rpm top end charges and the float or bounce got to them. There were a few more candidates for failure after teardown. Anyway; he got to send his head back to Indy and have it repaired and a buy new piston/rod combo. He runs the 10* configuration with the titanium retainers now.

=====================================

fast68plymouth
Moparts Member
Posts: 3468
From: so burlington,vt usa
Registered: Aug 2000
posted 12-16-2002 10:38 PM

just to clarify, the ten or twelve sets of BB E heads ive seen have all had machined 7deg locks, not the cheap stamped ones.
to buy locks like that from Comp or Crane would be $20 and up.
for hyd or solid cammed motors, i will use either 7 or 10deg stuff, and dont really care which. it just depends on what brand of spring im using, and whos retainer fits it better. then i just use which ever locks are required.
ive never had any type of lock pull through a retainer.
the E head retainers dont have the look of the Comp/Crane type retainers, but are pretty thick around the lock area, and i dont think they would be a problem at all with the 8005A's, expecially with a cam like the MP620, which isnt a cam thats particularly fast or hard on parts.

if i was setting up the heads for that cam, and the customer asked if he needed to upgrade the retainers/locks.....i'd say no. if they wanted to anyway i wouldnt have a problem with that either....its their money.
now....if they had stamped locks...then id at least upgrade to machined locks.

the E heads going on my motor will be getting the "super 7" style retainers/locks, but i'll be using a roller cam.

[firefighter3931]

My E-heads have all the stock hardware, springs/7* locks/retainers. The 446 was beat on mercifully for 2 days on the dyno making 85 dyno passes rpm's to 6500 testing several different cam/header/carb & intake manifold combinations. The cam is a very healthy custom Solid with .580 gross lift and 264@.050 duration. The locks and retainers are fine. 

The simple fact that your hardware has not failed does not mean that all Eddy hardware is infallible... all evidence points to the contrary. There are thousands of other heads out there running stock 7 degree sets without issue as well, but that does not make them bullet proof either, as we've seen. Comp Cams advertising for their 10 degree lock sets simply states that...

Mike, you seem to be missing the point here.  The 7* lock & retainer is not the issue....the quality of the parts is the issue 

The design parameter of the 7* lock and retainer is sound for the majority of street driven builds. The only reason i could see an e-head supplied lock pulling through is if the valvespring tension is incorrect for the application. Under those circumstances the valvetrain would be experiencing spring surge & valvefloat which will beat the parts all to hell. Once things start bouncing around in there failure is inevitable....even with a properly fitting lock/retainer. Proper valve control at high RPM is the key to long component life, period. The reality is that even low speed operation with insufficient seat pressure will create valve bounce and cause damage....


The point being is that even with a 10* lock upgrade there is no guarantee for sucess if the spring is inadequate for the application. Are they better....YES ! Is it a worthwhile upgrade....Absolutely. Is it important to have the right parts (valvesprings) matched to the cam profile....No Doubt About It 



Ron

[Musicman]

PM Sent