Best MOPARS to make pro-touring resto-mods?

[joflaig]

I have been leaning toward a 71 Mustang Mach I for about a year now, but decided that you can't really change their appearance without ruining the look IMO. ANYWAY, enough blasphomy, so now I'm thinking for the 2nd car not a big street/strip like I've got going currently, but a mean ass pro-touring presumably for handling purposes based on a smaller, lighter body. Are we talking just Darts and Dusters, or would a Cuda or Challenger fit the bill? I'm open minded on models and years.

I thought this one might be a project for me to actually do a lot of the body (and some mechanical) work myself, learning as I go.

Anyhow, the ultimate goal is to get something with comparable performance to a modern Corvette in terms of handling, but naturally more power . I was thinking it had to match or beat the new zr1, so 650hp w/EFI, 600+ fpt, 5 speed tranny w/OD, 4x discs (6 pistons on the front 2-4 on the back), heavy body stiffening, roll cage, mini-tubs, AND a paint job we just haven't SEEN yet.

Where should I go with this?  First step is picking the best body shell for the job to start on. Another factor is availablity of resto pats. With AMD it's much easier now, but I don't think Darts and Dusters are on their list yet, no? I don't care on this build about #matching and issues like that at all. Essentially, it's to make a brand new machine, as fun on the curves as my Charger is on a straight line.

Thanks for any ideas in advance! Non-MOPAR, I think a '70-71 NOVA would work, especially on cost and availability of parts.

[NYCMille]

I was thinking it had to match or beat the new zr1, so 650hp, 600+ fpt, 5 speed, tranny w/OD, 4x discs (6 pistons on the front 2-4 on the back), heay body stiffening, roll cage, AND a paint job we just haven't SEEn yet.

Dude... don't mean to burst your bubble... but you will NEVER get an old Mopar, regardless of the shape, color or size to do the above. We're currently in the process of re-powering the Daytona to exceed those specs and even by doing that we know we won't best the performance of a ZR1. Believe me... I've done the research and spent the money... it just ain't gonna' happen...

Cool dream though...   

[69bronzeT5]

Well I'm using my Charger for a pro-touring resto-mod project and I will do the same to the Duster one day. A Cuda or Challenger would definitley fit the bill considering they were used in the Trans Am series.

Regarding AMD and Duster panels, they are making them if I'm correct.

[69bronzeT5]

I was thinking it had to match or beat the new zr1, so 650hp, 600+ fpt, 5 speed, tranny w/OD, 4x discs (6 pistons on the front 2-4 on the back), heay body stiffening, roll cage, AND a paint job we just haven't SEEn yet.

Dude... don't mean to burst your bubble... but you will NEVER get an old Mopar, regardless of the shape, color or size to do the above.

Well if it was a straight line race, it would be an easy win. Just strap a good 'ole jet rocket to the back.

[Ghoste]

But if you just want an opinion on what makes the best Mopar Pro Touring car from an appearance standpoint, I like the E-bodies and 71-74 B-bodies.

[joflaig]

I was thinking it had to match or beat the new zr1, so 650hp, 600+ fpt, 5 speed, tranny w/OD, 4x discs (6 pistons on the front 2-4 on the back), heay body stiffening, roll cage, AND a paint job we just haven't SEEn yet.

Dude... don't mean to burst your bubble... but you will NEVER get an old Mopar, regardless of the shape, color or size to do the above. We're currently in the process of re-powering the Daytona to exceed those specs and even by doing that we know we won't best the performance of a ZR1. Believe me... I've done the research and spent the money... it just ain't gonna' happen...

Cool dream though...   

MIKE, please man, burst my bubble, that's why I'm posting...to get a realistic picture! But let's be fair and break the measure of performance down into a number of categories: engine power/performance, braking, various handling characteristics, suspension, etc. If you had an LS9 (or 572) in '71 Nova with the same brakes as a zr1 and other drive train components, and an advanced susupension, I'm sure you could match some of the performance heights a modern corvette reaches, or vice versa in the right old MOPAR worked over with similar modern tech, and a 6.1 Hemi gone wild.

Tell us, in what specific measures will we never be able to match a car like a zr1 on OVERALL perfomance in an old muscle car platform? Weight would seem to be obvious. Plus I can't see us replicating the sophisticated computer traction and suspension controls, even without cost being an object. But I think with modern tech applied, even to an old car you can get a lot closer than before. Just ask XV, right?

[six-tee-nine]

I think Autodynamics 69 Charger proves the fact that a 69 looks awesome in a Pro touring look...
I'm not a E-body fan but the XV Challenger also looks killer, in fact it's the only way i Like challengers.

[joflaig]

But if you just want an opinion on what makes the best Mopar Pro Touring car from an appearance standpoint, I like the E-bodies and 71-74 B-bodies.

I love all those cars, the 71-74 b-bodies are certainly larger than a Dart or Duster. All I'm trying to figure out is which old MOPAR in pro-tour configuration could have the best possible handling. Typically, a smaller and lighter car gives some advantages. Maybe a MOPAR is wrong for me for this project, but I am running through the list of MOPARs first.

[Charger-Bodie]

As long as you are not a really big Guy and dont plan to bring the entire family reunion along, Id go with an A-Body mopar IMO they are a VERY well engineered car ( basiclly like a mini B body) Far better engineering than the e body( Ebody cars look awesome ),but the didnt get the same carefull engineering the mopar is usually known for.

[joflaig]

As long as you are not a really big Guy and dont plan to bring the entire family reunion along, Id go with an A-Body mopar IMO they are a VERY well engineered car ( basiclly like a mini B body) Far better engineering than the e body( Ebody cars look awesome ),but the didnt get the same carefull engineering the mopar is usually known for.

IMO front end of many Duster model years look crappy compared to front end of many other cars of the same type of that era, like a '70-71 Nova, though the rest is ok, and the rear end styling works for me. I think Darts can be a bit plain jane. I never liked the styling on Baracudas. I guess a '71 Cuda or '70-'71 Challenger just beats the A body cars of roughy the same model years in looks, for me at least -- but I've heard before what you say about the quality.

BUT if I had to pick an a-body, it would probably be a '71 Duster or Demon. However, nobody makes brand new metal for these cars, right...not AMD?

This would be a good starting point to get an idea:

http://www.gforcedesignconcepts.com/gallery/DEMON

Front end, grill and headlamps almost just don't cut it though in styling to me.

[ds440]

I was talking to a guy at a SCCA event at Mid-Ohio once who was a race engineer for one of the vintage classes (mostly Mustangs and Camaros).  He was telling me that the suspension geometry along with the wheel base, weight and several other factors was why you don't see a lot of race-ready Mopars.  When I started asking specifics he kinda hedged a little and then basically admitted it was primarily because there wasn't nearly the aftermarket R&D available for Mopars that there is for the Mustang/Camaro crowd.

I think if you have an infinite supply of funds, sure you could probably make something that competes with a ZR1.  Carbon fiber panels, traction control, modern adjustable braking systems, crazy suspension geometry are all doable IF you have the money.  BUT...you could probably end up buying a Ferrari 430 for the half the cost (and that's saying something).

But hey, I'd admire your ambition though!  I still want to be the first dude to lap the Nordschleife in a '68 Charger.


Some knucklehead came up with these concepts not too long ago...

[joflaig]

I was talking to a guy at a SCCA event at Mid-Ohio once who was a race engineer for one of the vintage classes (mostly Mustangs and Camaros).  He was telling me that the suspension geometry along with the wheel base, weight and several other factors was why you don't see a lot of race-ready Mopars.  When I started asking specifics he kinda hedged a little and then basically admitted it was primarily because there wasn't nearly the aftermarket R&D available for Mopars that there is for the Mustang/Camaro crowd.

I think if you have an infinite supply of funds, sure you could probably make something that competes with a ZR1.  Carbon fiber panels, traction control, modern adjustable braking systems, crazy suspension geometry are all doable IF you have the money.  BUT...you could probably end up buying a Ferrari 430 for the half the cost (and that's saying something).

But hey, I'd admire your ambition though!  I still want to be the first dude to lap the Nordschleife in a '68 Charger.


Some knucklehead came up with these concepts not too long ago...

That 71 RR kicks ass!

Yeah, if I had the $ for a Ferrari, I would be driving one. My goal here is not take a 35-40 year old platform with the expectation of matching a zr1 in every aspect, but just to get -- within reason -- as close as possible to many of the performance measures of a modern Corvette, as one example. Isn't this what pro-touring is all about?

And to your point ,is it fair to say XV is truly one of the only new companies out their pushing MOPAR muscle car era tech into advanced places?

[moparstuart]

I was talking to a guy at a SCCA event at Mid-Ohio once who was a race engineer for one of the vintage classes (mostly Mustangs and Camaros).  He was telling me that the suspension geometry along with the wheel base, weight and several other factors was why you don't see a lot of race-ready Mopars.  When I started asking specifics he kinda hedged a little and then basically admitted it was primarily because there wasn't nearly the aftermarket R&D available for Mopars that there is for the Mustang/Camaro crowd.

I think if you have an infinite supply of funds, sure you could probably make something that competes with a ZR1.  Carbon fiber panels, traction control, modern adjustable braking systems, crazy suspension geometry are all doable IF you have the money.  BUT...you could probably end up buying a Ferrari 430 for the half the cost (and that's saying something).

But hey, I'd admire your ambition though!  I still want to be the first dude to lap the Nordschleife in a '68 Charger.


Some knucklehead came up with these concepts not too long ago...

That 71 RR kicks ass!

Yeah, if I had the $ for a Ferrari, I would be driving one. My goal here is not take a 35-40 year old platform with the expectation of matching a zr1 in every aspect, but just to get -- within reason -- as close as possible to many of the performance measures of a modern Corvette, as one example. Isn't this what pro-touring is all about?

And to your point ,is it fair to say XV is truly one of the only new companies out their pushing MOPAR muscle car era tech into advanced places?

I totally agree I think that the best looking 71 b body I have ever seen 

[NYCMille]

Dave... Dude, every time I see one of your renderings I'm blown away.

BTW - ladies and gentleman Dave is the one the people that INSTRUMENTAL in designing "ANGRIER", so a BIG THANKS to him... boyz got SKILLZ! 

[suntech]

I still want to be the first dude to lap the Nordschleife in a '68 Charger.

That would be cool as shit!!!
I live closer....... Just a 4 hour ferryride, and a 12 hour drive, and i am there!!! 

I agree that there are maybe better cars for the pro touring, but no way in hell you find a cooler looking car for it!!!
The Charger is a big car, but it can be "slimmed" down weightwise, to handle better.
Aluminum motor and gearcase, together with a pinion rack/ coilover front suspention will lighten up the nose.
Carbon fibre hood and trunk lid, etc lightens up.
Then do a lot of testing, to dial in suspention, and i think it will be nice handling car!
We can dream about driving in circles around corvettes and ferraris till we turn blue, but i doubt that will happen, but a charger will look good trying !!!

[firefighter3931]

Do a search on "the green brick"  I'm sure it could hang with many modern cars on the roundy track. 



Ron

[69bronzeT5]

Dave... Dude, every time I see one of your renderings I'm blown away.

BTW - ladies and gentleman Dave is the one the people that INSTRUMENTAL in designing "ANGRIER", so a BIG THANKS to him... boyz got SKILLZ! 

I definitely gotta give him a huge thanks. He's designed the exteriors of both of my cars.

[joflaig]

DAVE, I was going to PM you, but might as well lavish the praise publicly. When I sent in my deposit to Muscle Car Restorations for my '69 for next year, I included the rendering you did for me of the direction I wanted to go and they were blown away and very excited. 

I really like that 71 RR/GTX. I think just that rendering alone may actually have settled the whole matter for me. The only thing is I would have two black cars. I wonder what that RR would look like sublime or plum crazy... I'm also curious what it would look like if you add the striped graphics behind the driver/passenger windows.

Thanks man!

[ds440]

Thanks guys.

How's this?  I had already done the Plum Crazy version (it's buried somewhere in the Photoshop Thread) and whipped the Sublime version out pretty quickly.

[joflaig]

The sublime '71 with the stripes behind the window is absolutely awesome! I wouldn't change anything, except maybe experiment with different wheels and tires. That is an amazing looking car! Would I be wrong in saying nobody has anything like it on the road?

My only problem with that body style was under the front grill, but the Camaro spoiler solves the styling issue perfectly!

[Ghoste]

After seeing Daves images and knowing that all out performance in a Pro Tour look is your goal, I have to revise my first opinion.  I think you should give more thought to the 68 Barracuda fastback style.

[joflaig]

After seeing Daves images and knowing that all out performance in a Pro Tour look is your goal, I have to revise my first opinion.  I think you should give more thought to the 68 Barracuda fastback style.

Hmm, yeah I really hate Barracuda styling. Cuda's are another thing. That's just me.

I think Dave has really sold me on the sublime '71 GTX/RR/Satellite. The question there is do I bother trying to get an actual RR or GTX or since the resto-mod will be so extreme would it negate the value of the core car having been an RR or a GTX. In otherwords, do I try and find a nice Satellite body to base this off of. That would be the cheapest option, I think. I do want to keep the stock dash for contrast, with new gauges of course. Did all 3 models have the same dash and/or consoles?

[Ghoste]

Yeah, as I posted earlier my first choices were different but if you want to maximize performance then 1hot68`s suggestion of an A-body leapt to the front of my mind and the 2nd generation Barracudas were the next thing to leap.  I can`t seem to picture a Duster or a Swinger as a Pro Tour car.
But you`ll get no argument from me about the 71 RR really.  Always one of my favorite cars and one I can easily styled the way you are talking about.  Hitting your performance targets will be a little harder but hey, that`s the fun rightÉ

[joflaig]

Yeah, as I posted earlier my first choices were different but if you want to maximize performance then 1hot68`s suggestion of an A-body leapt to the front of my mind and the 2nd generation Barracudas were the next thing to leap.  I can`t seem to picture a Duster or a Swinger as a Pro Tour car.
But you`ll get no argument from me about the 71 RR really.  Always one of my favorite cars and one I can easily styled the way you are talking about.  Hitting your performance targets will be a little harder but hey, that`s the fun rightÉ

In terms of performance I'm not worried about the engine and drivetrain, I know my goals: worked over 6.1 HEMI, 5 speed manual w/OD, massive fricken brakes (6 pistons on the front), power everything, AC. It's more the suspension and handling I have no clue about. I don't know how much custom stuff is out there for this platform. It could get expensive to build custom systems.

[suntech]

It's more the suspension and handling I have no clue about. I don't know how much custom stuff is out there for this platform. It could get expensive to build custom systems.

What about XV Level II front and rear suspention / brakes?