gear vendors od + 4.10 install in 8 3/4, w/h-pipe exhaust now...

[joflaig]

It's 27 degrees outside, but sunny, and there is an inch of snow on the ground, but no salt or ice on most roads so I thought I'd take the car out one last time. 

By now I am getting much more comfortable behind the wheel and getting better aquainted with the performance envelope. I didn't do any burnouts (the engine only has maybe 300 miles on it) and I haven't found a secluded place to try donuts, but I will say the only time I managed to spin the wheels was coming off a dead stop and turning right onto an intersecting road -- where naturally you have less traction during the turn. I put my foot to the floor and I'm pretty sure I left some scars on the blacktop, at least it sure sounded that way.

But so far from a dead stop going in a straigt line and flooring it starting in D and without having my foot down on the breaks at all, screeching tire spin hasn't happened yet, or at least not enough that I can hear it through all the sound dampening material.

Now, I have been experimenting taking off from 1st, but the car goes so fast and I can't see the stupid tac very well to know when to shift at 4500 that I end up going from 1 to 2 to D without knowing the RPM because it's all happening so fast. I can't see the tac and don't know what to do.

If I'm going to manually shift, I think I need a big after market tac mounted on the steering column (I know guys, switch to a manual tranny ).

The only hairy moment today was on a back road when I let it loose a bit. At about 130mph I wanted to see how the 4 way discs with the hydorboost would perform. I probably gave it too much pressure and the rear end started going to the right. If I had been a little more liberal with the break pressure I would have hit a mailbox and crashed.

However, I will say this: I am used to driving pedestrian Japanese sedans and at about 110mph they start getting very flighty and loose road feel. But with the Charger, except for the sense of fear knowing a crash at 130 could be fatal, the car felt rock solid and maybe the way a regular passenger sedan feels at 80 or 90. I'd be comfortable going faster than 130, but probably not on public roads (at least not yet).

My question about the torque converter is below,  but first here's what I have:

10" Street "S-800" Series Turbo Action Torque Converter (Tight) (2800 stall - 3400 stall range)

Question: how is this affecting the lack of or minimal amount of tire spin when flooring it in a straight line? Or is this even the thing that is the factor? The goal with this build was power, super low maintainance, and excellent streetability, and I am not complaining about the advice I got or what I have. I'm very pleased. BUT now with a little experience under my belt I have to wonder if we tweaked some of the parts differently how the behavior would change?

I've been very pleased with the streetablility of this build (http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,36197.180.html), and the fuel economy has been good. I have yet to get to the track. The goal was high 11s. I will find out in the spring if I can do it. HOWEVER, I think I would be satisified with even a little more power, maybe just another 75hp.

I know part of it maybe has to do with having an automatic tranny too, but now with having some experience to go by finally, I think I could definelty tolerate (enjoy) a bit more agressiveness in the performance. I'm not sure what that would all involve. Probably a stage one port job on the heads, work on the manifold, maybe a new cam, and probably a dana 60. But I'm seriously thinking about it for the future after the body resto and re-paint.

[RECHRGD]

I have the same converter and installed it after installing a new cam and heads last winter.  Although the car will spin the tires for maybe 15 to 20 feet from a dead stop or a slow roll, I had thought that I would have more of a problem in keeping the tires FROM spinning.  When on the chassis dyno it was determined that it was stalling right around 3300rpm, which should be about perfect for my build.  I have since discovered that my new rebuilt tranny is bad, so it may have been slipping all the time without me knowing it until I saw that the fluid was brown.  So I guess until I have a known good transmission, I shouldn't making judgements about the converter.  You should be making alot more torque than I am and I would think that your car should be able to "smoke em" at will.  Is the tranny fresh?

[joflaig]

I have the same converter and installed it after installing a new cam and heads last winter.  Although the car will spin the tires for maybe 15 to 20 feet from a dead stop or a slow roll, I had thought that I would have more of a problem in keeping the tires FROM spinning.  When on the chassis dyno it was determined that it was stalling right around 3300rpm, which should be about perfect for my build.  I have since discovered that my new rebuilt tranny is bad, so it may have been slipping all the time without me knowing it until I saw that the fluid was brown.  So I guess until I have a known good transmission, I shouldn't making judgements about the converter.  You should be making alot more torque than I am and I would think that your car should be able to "smoke em" at will.  Is the tranny fresh?

oh yeah, totally rebuilt with high perfomance parts. Maybe don't read too much into that there is some mechanical problem as I still have not been really agressive driving the car except briefly today. Maybe their spinning but I cn't hear it.  I spent thousands on the suspension so it would hook so maybe I shouldn't be complaining. I guess maybe what I'm saying is I wouldn't mind even more stomach crunching Gs pushing me into the seat when I drop the hammer.

[firefighter3931]

I spent thousands on the suspension so it would hook so maybe I shouldn't be complaining. I guess maybe what I'm saying is I wouldn't mind even more stomach crunching Gs pushing me into the seat when I drop the hammer.

A couple of comments :

(1) you haven't floored it from a dead stop yet so you don't know the full potential at this point. 

(2) the 3.55 gears with taller tires are taking some torque multiplication away. 

(3) The suspension upgrades are working as they should be 


Some guys are never happy     



Ron

[joflaig]

I spent thousands on the suspension so it would hook so maybe I shouldn't be complaining. I guess maybe what I'm saying is I wouldn't mind even more stomach crunching Gs pushing me into the seat when I drop the hammer.

A couple of comments :

(1) you haven't floored it from a dead stop yet so you don't know the full potential at this point. 

(2) the 3.55 gears with taller tires are taking some torque multiplication away. 

(3) The suspension upgrades are working as they should be 


Some guys are never happy     



Ron

Hey Ron, I'm very happy with everything, beleive me, and your advice was invaluable. I'm in your debt. Anyway, like everything adding one thing diminishes the possibilities of others. So for instance putting in 4.11s would probably drive me nuts on the highway. I know you can't have everything.

My point is having previously had no experience in these realms of these things I took a cautious approach to the build which paid off. Now that I have some seat time and experience with it, it's only natural for me to wonder how changing a few things here and there would make a difference. That's why I asked about stage 1 porting of the heads, and all that would end up nessesitating in other changes if I wanted to get even more power. My point is I am really hppy with the setup now, it seems to hook, but I could live with even more agressiveness so I'm just try to quantify some of the things I might need to do in the distant future to make that possible. I'm not talking a 9 second car...and I guess I should wait till I get some track time to really see what I'm happy with, but hey gas is cheap again so yehaw!

Are 4.11s really that bad on the highway with the increased rpm, noise, and presumably worse fuel economy?

[Ghoste]

I have 4:10's in my car and as I often state, the desirability is all relative.  Yes, there is no doubt there is increased noise but I'm one of those sickos that likes it, I rarely turn on the radio in the car.  As for the rpm, obviously they go up on the highway as well.  For the most part, I prefer acceleration over being able to drive flat out all the time so when I do make a long distance cruise on the highway, I'm quite happy to be in the slow lane puttering along at 50mph.  I'll admit there are times I'd like to be burning up the pavement a little more but that frustration is outweighed by wanting to make it a little easier on the old mill and your third point, fuel economy.  At 50, my car gets very close to the same mileage it got with 3:23's which I attribute to the 4:10s bringing the cruise rpm into a comfortable (efficient) spot in the powerband.  Keep it up at 70mph though and let it start drinking from four pots instead of two and you can expect to stop more often for fuel.
If it's a push in the stomach you want, then tire screech is very bad.  You'll need to try it on the dragstrip, you could be hitting your performance goals without knowing it.

[2much2learn]

 

[RECHRGD]

Gear Vendors O/D & 4.10's.

[joflaig]

Gear Vendors O/D & 4.10's.

Do you need to make mods to the tunnel sheet metal for it to fit?

If it would allow me to switch to 4.10s and not suffer all the worse consequences at highway speeds plus give me more of a punch in the stomach taking off from the line then I guess that would be they way to go.

EDIT: More info:

http://www.gearvendors.com/hrdodge3s.html

Holy crap. Sounds awesome!

[RECHRGD]

I only needed a few taps with a ballpeen hammer in the tunnel and it fit just fine.  You'll need to shorten the drive shaft and be sure the your pinion angle is good.  Bob

[firefighter3931]

The GV units are awesome....you get the best of both worlds. 

Fwiw, i have 4.10's in my car but will also be running a tall 29in tire so that knocks some rpms out the engine at cruise speed. Like Ghoste says it's all relative.

Adding more power to your build won't be that difficult ; a large cam and some portwork would push it over 600hp but there will be some compromises. The Tq converter would need to be upsized somewhat (increased duration = higher stall) and you're pushing the envelope on that 8 3/4 rear end. 

Personally, i think you should get more familiar with the car because you haven't tapped all the power that is available....just yet. There's no doubt in my mind that you have an 11 second hotrod as long as you can get it to launch properly at the track. 


Ron

[joflaig]

The GV units are awesome....you get the best of both worlds. 

Fwiw, i have 4.10's in my car but will also be running a tall 29in tire so that knocks some rpms out the engine at cruise speed. Like Ghoste says it's all relative.

Adding more power to your build won't be that difficult ; a large cam and some portwork would push it over 600hp but there will be some compromises. The Tq converter would need to be upsized somewhat (increased duration = higher stall) and you're pushing the envelope on that 8 3/4 rear end. 

Personally, i think you should get more familiar with the car because you haven't tapped all the power that is available....just yet. There's no doubt in my mind that you have an 11 second hotrod as long as you can get it to launch properly at the track. 


Ron

I tend to agree with you Ron. Anyway, winters are spent for fantasizing, but the fact is I won't get to the track till spring and the higher priority than the performance upgrades after the work I just had done is restoring the body and paint to show quality. But a GV unit does sound promising. If I break the rear end, I'll end up with a Dana 60 anyway.

[joflaig]

The GV units are awesome....you get the best of both worlds. 

Fwiw, i have 4.10's in my car but will also be running a tall 29in tire so that knocks some rpms out the engine at cruise speed. Like Ghoste says it's all relative.

Adding more power to your build won't be that difficult ; a large cam and some portwork would push it over 600hp but there will be some compromises. The Tq converter would need to be upsized somewhat (increased duration = higher stall) and you're pushing the envelope on that 8 3/4 rear end. 

Personally, i think you should get more familiar with the car because you haven't tapped all the power that is available....just yet. There's no doubt in my mind that you have an 11 second hotrod as long as you can get it to launch properly at the track. 


Ron

Cass at Dr. Diff suggested this:

Base price, bolt-in street Dana 60 built around S-60 casting $1895 Upgrade to True-track differential $300 Shipping to a business address runs about $200.

This is their list:

http://www.doctordiff.com/?page_id=5

Come spring I guess I'll be speaking more with them on the details, but if anyone with experience has some input don't be shy. I'll also be calling Gear Vendors. This is their page:

http://www.gearvendors.com/hrdodge3s.html

If I understand their chart, with 4.10s in 3rd gear on overdrive you're operating as if you were on 3.20s. Incredible! Plus you get the benefits of 4.10s at launch.

I'm not sure what to order, but I'll be talking with them too. I bet with labor this whole upgrade will set me back at least $6000. I think I if I scrimp and save I can still afford this plus come next fall continue with my plan to ship the car off to MCR. MCR charges something like a 150 bucks a month, if I recall, for storage in case you decide to pause you project. After the metal work and e-coat, I imagine that would be the perfect time to give it a rest to accumulate some more cash before they do the paint.

[firefighter3931]

That sounds like a good plan.  Cass built the Dana in my car and did a very nice job. 

4.10's + GV =   



Ron

[joflaig]

That sounds like a good plan.  Cass built the Dana in my car and did a very nice job. 

4.10's + GV =   



Ron

Cool. He says he needs a 3-4 week lead time.

So Ron, given what you know about my setup now, you would say with just this change the difference in feel when taking off with 4.10s vs the current 3.55s would be noticable, right? A bit more in g force feel pushing me into the seat? How many 10ths might it get me in a perfect world on the 1/4 mile?

Oh, and Ron how would the torque converter factor into this, if at all?

[firefighter3931]

John, the difference will be quite noticable.  4.10's are my alltime favorite street/strip gear. 

The T/A converters are very efficient so you will be fine cruising at 2500+ rpm on the highway. Lower quality converters are prone to slippage and excessive heat below their rated stall speed. This is why I recommended the T/A converter to you because it functions well in all areas. 



Ron

[joflaig]

John, the difference will be quite noticable.  4.10's are my alltime favorite street/strip gear. 

The T/A converters are very efficient so you will be fine cruising at 2500+ rpm on the highway. Lower quality converters are prone to slippage and excessive heat below their rated stall speed. This is why I recommended the T/A converter to you because it functions well in all areas. 



Ron

Ok, I was just wondering say in the new scenario what the difference between say having the 10" Street TA convertor vs say their Hemi 11" would be. It's not expensive to switch which is why I ask, though granted I'm not looking for an all out race car.

[firefighter3931]

John, the difference will be quite noticable.  4.10's are my alltime favorite street/strip gear. 

The T/A converters are very efficient so you will be fine cruising at 2500+ rpm on the highway. Lower quality converters are prone to slippage and excessive heat below their rated stall speed. This is why I recommended the T/A converter to you because it functions well in all areas. 



Ron

Ok, I was just wondering say in the new scenario what the difference between say having the 10" Street TA convertor vs say their Hemi 11" would be. It's not expensive to switch which is why I ask, though granted I'm not looking for an all out race car.

Keep the 10 inch.....it is better matched to the powerband of your engine combination. 

One thing you should be considering (strongly) is a good quality floor mounted ratchet shifter. No worries about missing gears or hitting neutral/reverse at full throttle. 

As you've just recently found out your stroker is a handful at full throttle  and overshifting is not something you need to be worrying about while trying to control that beast. 


Ron

[Mick70RR]

Just fitted a Gear Vendors overdrive and 3.91 gears. Best money I have spent on the car.

[joflaig]

One thing you should be considering (strongly) is a good quality floor mounted ratchet shifter. No worries about missing gears or hitting neutral/reverse at full throttle. 

As you've just recently found out your stroker is a handful at full throttle  and overshifting is not something you need to be worrying about while trying to control that beast. 

Do you mean simply converting from a column shift to a floor shift?

I can see with the column how it's easier to make a mistake, say shifting into reverse. I do have the rev limiter chip so aside of that there is some built in safety, I think.

I think I may have gone rapidly from 1 to D before, obvisouly you are moving the shifter through 2, but only briefly. Is this bad?

I have no experience with an auto floor shifter in a charger. I would certainly want one as opposed to a column shift, but this is pretty low on the list right now. If anything, long in the future I'd probably want to switch to a 4-speed manual. I've read with some mods you can carry over the gear vendor unit too if you do that.

Honestly, I don;t know how to drive a stick, which for someone in the middle class in their 30s may not be too uncommon any more. I'm not sure this is the car I should learn on either. 

[oldschool]

Just fitted a Gear Vendors overdrive and 3.91 gears. Best money I have spent on the car.

how easy was the install? any mods to install? any tips to give?
i would like OD in my 572" 70 charger with 4.10,s.thought about the tremec 5 sp,but i was told it was not strong enough.sounds like the gear vendors is thou

[joflaig]

Just fitted a Gear Vendors overdrive and 3.91 gears. Best money I have spent on the car.

how easy was the install? any mods to install? any tips to give?
i would like OD in my 572" 70 charger with 4.10,s.thought about the tremec 5 sp,but i was told it was not strong enough.sounds like the gear vendors is thou

Everything you need to know is here:

http://www.gearvendors.com/hrdodge3s.html

[jerry]

running 4.10 in my 6bbl car [factory] with factory 440 and cruising on interstate at 55 doesn't cut it. very dangerous for me and everyone else. you are a sitten duck for someone not paying attention with the speeds they run on the roads now. so i have a complete 3.54 dana with the tall 29''  tires and i can run 70 without being in harms way.as far as off interstate driving the 4.10 was great.in the 6 yrs since i have had the 3.54 in car i don't miss the 4.10 at all. it is nice to have a complete spare if ever needed.if i ever put it back into the car it will have some sort of over drive.[4sp] by the way.looking at Passion Performance for the over drive or GV.

[Mick70RR]

Just fitted a Gear Vendors overdrive and 3.91 gears. Best money I have spent on the car.

how easy was the install? any mods to install? any tips to give?
i would like OD in my 572" 70 charger with 4.10,s.thought about the tremec 5 sp,but i was told it was not strong enough.sounds like the gear vendors is thou

I think the overdrive can be fitted to a 727 without dropping the tranny. Just remove the tailshaft, fit the GV tailshaft and bolt up the overdrive.
I have a 4 speed so I had to drop it out. When you pull the tailshaft the mainshaft comes with it so the sidecover and syncro forks have to be removed. I just pulled the tailshaft out enough to get to the snap ring, about an inch, then removed it.
I had to hammer a few dents into the top of the tunnel to clear the overdrive where it just touched. The exhaust was the biggest problem, I had made it a close fit to the driveshaft so I had to cut and shut it so it cleared and the h-pipe had to be relocated as well.

[joflaig]

Just fitted a Gear Vendors overdrive and 3.91 gears. Best money I have spent on the car.

how easy was the install? any mods to install? any tips to give?
i would like OD in my 572" 70 charger with 4.10,s.thought about the tremec 5 sp,but i was told it was not strong enough.sounds like the gear vendors is thou

I think the overdrive can be fitted to a 727 without dropping the tranny. Just remove the tailshaft, fit the GV tailshaft and bolt up the overdrive.
I have a 4 speed so I had to drop it out. When you pull the tailshaft the mainshaft comes with it so the sidecover and syncro forks have to be removed. I just pulled the tailshaft out enough to get to the snap ring, about an inch, then removed it.
I had to hammer a few dents into the top of the tunnel to clear the overdrive where it just touched. The exhaust was the biggest problem, I had made it a close fit to the driveshaft so I had to cut and shut it so it cleared and the h-pipe had to be relocated as well.

I've got an X pipe, think that will cause any problems?

[joflaig]

I asked Gear vendors if a TTI x-pipe exhaust would get in the way. They were not specific with an answer, but they did say this:

"From the center of your yoke, measure down 4.25 inches from the centerline, this is where our oil sump sits.   If it touches, you will need to make some modification the the exhaust."

Anyone running a GV OD with a TTI x-pipe?

[joflaig]

Well, I've asked around (have to call TTI still), but it sounds like with the Gear Vendors OD Unit on a 727 you can't have an x-pipe. In fact, TTI is now selling a special H-pipe exhaust part that works specifcally with the Gear Vendors unit.

So first off, what kind of sound and performance changes would I get with an h-pipe vs the x-pipe?

And second, I thought instead of spending all the cash to upgrade to a dana 60 w/4.10s at the same time as the GV unit why not just swap 4.10s into my 8 3/4 rear for now?

I will ask the shop about this, but so I am informed first, can someone tell me the level of effort involved in that? From what I know I don't think it's too much. You just pull off the third member right and change out the ring and pinion gears? The entire axle assembly shouldn't have to come off, the differential stays that same? Am I missing anything? Will the taller gears fit without other changes?

As you can see I am no expert. 

[b5blue]

Why not set up a whole 4.10 chunk and swap them out to compare while you get use to the car?Get more seat time and you will know what to do after you play with it more!

[joflaig]

Another thing I wonder is on a b body where you would then put the drive shaft safty loop on with the GV ID unit installed?

If the driveshaft is a 1 foot shorter, there would no cross member to use, so I guess it could be bolted or welded to the floor pan itself, right? What are the regs?

[b5blue]

They sell a loop that you bolt to the floorboards,but back where your going to be at the mufflers may make it a tight fit.(mine was mounted kind of the same place yours is now and still came very close to ex. pipes)Mine was on the car when I bought it but I'm sure I saw them in at JEG's.Good luck to you sounds like you have a really nice set-up!

[firefighter3931]

Another thing I wonder is on a b body where you would then put the drive shaft safty loop on with the GV ID unit installed?

If the driveshaft is a 1 foot shorter, there would no cross member to use, so I guess it could be bolted or welded to the floor pan itself, right? What are the regs?

John, check out HemiDoug's thread on the frame connector/driveshaft loop installation. A very nice and clean installation. I would avoid bolting a loop to the floorpans if at all possible. 

Doug is also running a Gear Vendors unit on his 69 Charger.

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,41726.msg459572.html#msg459572




Ron

[joflaig]

Another thing I wonder is on a b body where you would then put the drive shaft safty loop on with the GV ID unit installed?

If the driveshaft is a 1 foot shorter, there would no cross member to use, so I guess it could be bolted or welded to the floor pan itself, right? What are the regs?

John, check out HemiDoug's thread on the frame connector/driveshaft loop installation. A very nice and clean installation. I would avoid bolting a loop to the floorpans if at all possible. 

Doug is also running a Gear Vendors unit on his 69 Charger.

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,41726.msg459572.html#msg459572




Ron

THAT's perfect, just want I needed. You guys are great.

[472 R/T SE]

I used Doug's car as my template (inspiration).  My loop is almost identical to his.

When I ran into problems with the 3" H pipe hitting I contacted GV.  Pete said he was gonna contact tti to address it, sounded like I was the first to experience it.  Or he made it sound like that.

Bob (rechrgd)ran into problems with his X pipe and he ended up redoing his exhaust system.

I can say for sure your loop isn't gonna work.  I almost bought that same one and was glad I didn't.

GV's been a mixed blessing.  It's great cruisin' the fast lane but when you travel with your buddys none of them can keep up.  You learn real quick who has highway gears.  I've been runnin' 55 gears since the install but my new 3:91 Power Lok is ready to go back in so I'll be hittin' the track again first of spring.

[joflaig]

Just talked with a tech at TTI exhaust. Yep, have to go their h-pipe, which is made for the GV Unit. They said it's a bit louder, still has the deep grumble, but I will loose 15hp in top end power. I guess it's good bye x-pipe.