Tranny fluid is brown

[RECHRGD]

and only about 2000 miles after a total rebuild.  The car went through both engine and tranny upgrades and rebuilds last winter.  I spent most of the summer sorting out things but didn't deal with the tranny much, although it didn't seem to be shifting hard enough after the rebuild.  I put in a new Turbo Action tight 10" converter when installing the tranny and filled it with ATF 4 fluid (which I learned may have something to do with the soft shifts) when installing the tranny.  I've got the car home for the winter and was going to just change the fluid out to Dextron and call it good, but the brown fluid has me concerned that something more serious is going on in there.  Any thoughts?  I'm at the point of just buying a whole new tranny as I will not take the car back to the shop that did the rebuild.  Too many negative issues with them in the past.  Thanks,   Bob

[firefighter3931]

Bob, as a rule...brown fluid usually means burnt clutches/bands. 

How old is the fluid ? Have the bands been adjusted recently ?



Ron

[RECHRGD]

Bob, as a rule...brown fluid usually means burnt clutches/bands. 

How old is the fluid ? Have the bands been adjusted recently ?



Ron

Ron, as stated above, this is a new rebuilt unit with only 1500 to 2000 miles on it and the fluid.  No adjustments have been made since it has been installed in the car.  Thanks. Bob

[RECHRGD]

Is the TCI super street fighter 727 a quality piece?  This is the 4th rebuild on this tranny in 30K miles.  I'm, tired of dealing with the mopar "experts" around here and just want something that will be a good street strip unit that will last behind around 500hp.  Thanks, Bob

[resq302]

If I were you, I'd bring it back to whoever built it and make them fix it at their cost or find a reputable business who specializes in doing transmissions and bring it to them with what your expectations are.  Sounds like you got hosed like we did when we had our 71 Buick GS convert engine rebuilt.  We paid the guy for boring, balancing, rebuilt, blueprint, etc only to find out that he took 4 months to put new rings, bearings, and gaskets kit in it and paint it all nice and shiney.  Not even a year later we were blowing smoke out the exhaust when you took the foot off the gas and burning oil.  Yanked the heads only to find a ton of carbon on top of the pistons and egged out cylidners.  Scumbag didnt make good on it either.

Good luck with this endeavor.  I know it is frustrating as the guy who screwed us we worked with at repair garage and was a friend of ours.  Now we have a guy who is strictly in business for rebuilding engines and is top notch at his work.

[BigBlockSam]

Is the TCI super street fighter 727 a quality piece?

i have a tci 727 and there street fighter converter in my rod for many years . it works well . it shifts very hard and positive at any speed. slow,  fast. it makes my cd player skip . Rene

[RECHRGD]

If I were you, I'd bring it back to whoever built it and make them fix it at their cost or find a reputable business who specializes in doing transmissions and bring it to them with what your expectations are.  Sounds like you got hosed like we did when we had our 71 Buick GS convert engine rebuilt.  We paid the guy for boring, balancing, rebuilt, blueprint, etc only to find out that he took 4 months to put new rings, bearings, and gaskets kit in it and paint it all nice and shiney.  Not even a year later we were blowing smoke out the exhaust when you took the foot off the gas and burning oil.  Yanked the heads only to find a ton of carbon on top of the pistons and egged out cylidners.  Scumbag didnt make good on it either.

Good luck with this endeavor.  I know it is frustrating as the guy who screwed us we worked with at repair garage and was a friend of ours.  Now we have a guy who is strictly in business for rebuilding engines and is top notch at his work.

A little history----When I bought the car it had a new rebuilt tranny (unknown builder) with a manual valve body.  After getting it on the road a couple of years later, I took it up to about 80mph and the tailpiece of the tranny exploded.  This created quite an exciting experience upon rapid decelleration and my wife still cringes whenever I give the car some throttle even to this day, some 10 years later.  A fellow that I worked with had a brother-in-law who was a local drag racer and told me that he could fix the tranny with his eyes closed.  Well he must have had them closed, because that rebuild only lasted about 500 miles.  Lesson learned, I went to a reputatble shop and paid the going rated for a good rebuild and conversion back to an automatic VB.  The tranny worked great and all was well until several years later when coming back from a car show about a hundred miles from home it gave out, spilling it's bodily fluids all over US Hwy 395.  At that point in time the shop was out of business that had done the tranny rebuild.  I was told about a mopar friendly shop in town that had a good reputation.  They had their on tranny rebuilder and he knew his stuff.  The owner of the shop had hemi's and 727's laying around so I thought I had hit paydirt.  When I got the car back it had a bad clunk with the 1-2 shift in traffic but was OK under power.  It also would sometimes do a transbrake kind of thing on the 2-3 shift.  I took it back and he tried a bunch of adjustments that didn't help much.  He volenteered to fix it for free.  We agreed that no harm would come from running it the way it was, so I enjoyed the car for the rest of the summer and took the tranny back to him in the winter.  When he dug into the tranny, it was full of metal shavings that he thought was from a bad planetary gear.  So, another rebuild had to take place at his expense.  I installed the tranny along with some extensive engine mods and went cruising

[RECHRGD]

If I were you, I'd bring it back to whoever built it and make them fix it at their cost or find a reputable business who specializes in doing transmissions and bring it to them with what your expectations are.  Sounds like you got hosed like we did when we had our 71 Buick GS convert engine rebuilt.  We paid the guy for boring, balancing, rebuilt, blueprint, etc only to find out that he took 4 months to put new rings, bearings, and gaskets kit in it and paint it all nice and shiney.  Not even a year later we were blowing smoke out the exhaust when you took the foot off the gas and burning oil.  Yanked the heads only to find a ton of carbon on top of the pistons and egged out cylidners.  Scumbag didnt make good on it either.

Good luck with this endeavor.  I know it is frustrating as the guy who screwed us we worked with at repair garage and was a friend of ours.  Now we have a guy who is strictly in business for rebuilding engines and is top notch at his work.

A little history----When I bought the car it had a new rebuilt tranny (unknown builder) with a manual valve body.  After getting it on the road a couple of years later, I took it up to about 80mph and the tailpiece of the tranny exploded.  This created quite an exciting experience upon rapid deceleration and my wife still cringes whenever I give the car some throttle even to this day, some 10 years later.  A fellow that I worked with had a brother-in-law who was a local drag racer and told me that he could fix the tranny with his eyes closed.  Well he must have had them closed, because that rebuild only lasted about 500 miles.  Lesson learned, I went to a reputable shop and paid the going rated for a good rebuild and conversion back to an automatic VB.  The tranny worked great and all was well until several years later when coming back from a car show about a hundred miles from home it gave out, spilling it's bodily fluids all over US Hwy 395.  At that point in time the shop was out of business that had done the tranny rebuild.  I was told about a mopar friendly shop in town that had a good reputation.  They had their on tranny re-builder and he knew his stuff.  The owner of the shop had hemi's and 727's laying around so I thought I had hit paydirt.  When I got the car back it had a bad clunk with the 1-2 shift in traffic but was OK under power.  It also would sometimes do a transbrake kind of thing on the 2-3 shift.  I took it back and he tried a bunch of adjustments that didn't help much.  He volunteered to fix it for free.  We agreed that no harm would come from running it the way it was, so I enjoyed the car for the rest of the summer and took the tranny back to him in the winter.  When he dug into the tranny, it was full of metal shavings that he thought was from a bad planetary gear.  So, another rebuild had to take place at his expense.  I installed the tranny along with some extensive engine mods and went cruising

OOOOOOPs!!!!! I must have hit the post button by mistake.....I'll continue...

It soon developed some minor leaks that again he said he would take care of but it had to come out of the car again.  I told him that I'd keep an eye on it and hopefully the leaks would fix themselves (fat chance).  The tranny also seemed to shift alot softer than I had anticipated but would still fry the tires so I thought everything OK or at least just and adjustment away from what I would want.  Anyway now I've got the brown oil and although I know he'll continue to make good on his work, I'm just fed up and don't want him to touch the car.  He's about my age (60) and probably a bit over the hill.  The last time I talked with him, he kind of had that deer in the headlight look going on.  I just want to buy a well built good strong tranny that I can bolt my gear vendors unit to and go without any worries.

[RECHRGD]

Is the TCI super street fighter 727 a quality piece?

i have a tci 727 and there street fighter converter in my rod for many years . it works well . it shifts very hard and positive at any speed. slow,  fast. it makes my cd player skip . Rene

Thanks Rene!  I want to still use my T/A converter.  I'm assuming it will clean up OK.  I wonder if that would effect the TCI warranty.  Bob

[John_Kunkel]

Brown fluid doesn't always come from burnt lining material, it can also be caused by severe overheating; I've pulled apart transmissions that brown fluid with little or lining damage/wear. A failed converter will often burn the fluid without causing any major transmission damage.

I would drop the pan and look for debris in the pan instead of merely changing the fluid; the soft shifting could be a result of the smaller converter, I doubt the fluid contributed much to that.

With a history of repeated failures I would take a hard look at the cooling circuit.

[RECHRGD]

Brown fluid doesn't always come from burnt lining material, it can also be caused by severe overheating; I've pulled apart transmissions that brown fluid with little or lining damage/wear. A failed converter will often burn the fluid without causing any major transmission damage.

I would drop the pan and look for debris in the pan instead of merely changing the fluid; the soft shifting could be a result of the smaller converter, I doubt the fluid contributed much to that.

With a history of repeated failures I would take a hard look at the cooling circuit.

Thanks John!  I have the cooling lines by-passing the radiator and going directly to a large B&M tranny cooler.  I have a temp. gauge and it has never gone much over 120*.  And that was only when stuck in traffic.  I plan on pulling the pan and maybe you can tell me what to look for to confirm that I have a tranny problem.  I would hate to put a nice new unit in there only to find that my new converter is bad.  Thanks again,  Bob

[62 Max]

Forget about the Dexron and use Ford Type F.You won't be sorry.

[flyinlow]

Brown fluid that smells burned could be clutch/band problem.

It could be lack of cooler capacity. Or if you are driving in a manor that makes the converter slip alot.


Pull the pan. A thin film of dark clutch material on the bottom of the pan would be ok. A lot of clutch/ band material or metal grindings would be bad.

In the old days some guys used type F fluid (Ford). It did seem to give firmer shifts.

Synthetic fluid should take more heat without breaking down.

I use stock dextron in my 727 with a big B&M plate cooler , no radiator cooler. Fluid temp in pan stays below 200 deg. except on a hot summer day in a traffic jam. May see 220 deg. untill you get moving again.

[RECHRGD]

OK---I just pulled the pan, man does that fluid stink!  There is a gasket for the deep pan filter extension piece laying just laying in the bottom of the pan.  It has about enough metal shavings collected on it to fill maybe a 22 caliber shell casing.  On the bottom side of the filter there were a couple small gobs (finger tip size) of a dark pasty/fibery material that also has shavings embedded in them.  The upper gasket for the extension piece was in place but was chewed up on one end.  I looked like maybe the retaining screw had caught it during the installation and torn it up.  I'll see if I can re size some pictures to post.  Wish me luck.  Bob

[62 Max]

I noticed you said gasket.The extension should have an O-ring.

[RECHRGD]

Well, no pictures tonight. The extension tube for the deep pan is housed in a triangular piece that measures around 3" long.  It is held to the bottom of the transmission by three small 2" long bolts and has a gasket the full size and shape of the triangular piece that goes between it and the transmission.  The gasket in the bottom of the pan looked the same.  Maybe it was supposed to go between the upper side of the filter and the bottom of the extension piece.  Bob

[tan top]

 ... i have one like that on a the MP deep sump .. if its what i'm thinking it is , the paper gasket goes between the pick up extension tube & the valve body 

[RECHRGD]

Let's see if these will post!

[RECHRGD]

Well, whether you can see the pictures or not, I DO have a problem going on in there.  I am now concerned that my new converter has these metal shavings in it and I'm not going to be able to use it.  Is there a way to positively flush out a converter.  Also, how can I find out that the converter was not the cause of the problem?  Thanks,  Bob

[idahogrumpy]

The used to be places around that could power flush converters. The converter can be cut apart cleaned, repaired if needed, and welded back together. Sounds like the transmission needs to come out and be tore down again. But before you do that I would have the tranny guy run a line pressure check on it to see if there is excessive line pressure. I believe that John K has posted opinions here that too much line pressure in a street trans could cause premature damage. Maybe John will chime in.   Good luck Kyle

[62 Max]

... i have one like that on a the MP deep sump .. if its what i'm thinking it is , the paper gasket goes between the pick up extension tube & the valve body 

This is what I'm refering to.

[idahogrumpy]

Older kits used gaskets. I have one that uses gaskets, it was from B@M. Kyle

[RECHRGD]

I think I'm going to give up on reusing the converter and just replace it also.  If there's a weak link anywhere it will come out and bite me.  Mancini sell both TCI and their brand of 727's.  Is one better than the other or are there other complete units out there to consider.  Thanks, Bob

[tan top]

 would also flush the cooler out also 

[Runner]

bob, tci has a terrible reputation for there trannies, i have no personal experiance though.  i did use a tci rebiuld kit in my tranny and it came with nice stuff.    i think you should see if john kunkel will biuld you one. id bet you would end up with a very nice tranny. im not sure if he does that kind of thing though.     it seems really hard to get good tranny work done, i dont know why but in this area it seems tranny shops and meth seem to go hand in hand.

[RECHRGD]

bob, tci has a terrible reputation for there trannies, i have no personal experiance though.  i did use a tci rebiuld kit in my tranny and it came with nice stuff.    i think you should see if john kunkel will biuld you one. id bet you would end up with a very nice tranny. im not sure if he does that kind of thing though.     it seems really hard to get good tranny work done, i dont know why but in this area it seems tranny shops and meth seem to go hand in hand.

Good to hear from you Mike.  I do remember years ago people complaining about the TCI converters.  I'll do some more research and maybe PM John.  I want to get the car together and get some time slips this spring!  At least I've got a 4 post lift now, so my old bones don't have to lie under the car on jack stands to do this.

[gtx6970]

metal debris / shavings of any size is not going to do a convertor ( or a coolor ) any good and no way would I re-use it without either replacement or extensive ( read cut it open)  rebuild

has the coolor been power flushed on each teardown ? if not this is most likely your problem source

[Ghoste]

Yep, get junk in the cooler once and you can easily end up living with it for a very long time.  It's another reason why bolting on an unknown used cooler is a bad idea IMO.  Ditto on converters.

[RECHRGD]

The cooler was a brand new unit because of the higher stall converter I went to this year.  It could not have been the source of the trouble.  I doubt that the new T/A converter was the cause (this is NOT a cheap converter).  I will be sure to flush the cooler and I think I'll go ahead and get new cooler lines.  The ones on there now are original, as far as I can tell.  Thanks,  Bob

[firefighter3931]

Bob, if you are looking for a new trans check out CRT....John builds nice stuff. 

I would install new lines and flush the converter and cooler out before installation. 



Ron

[RECHRGD]

Bob, if you are looking for a new trans check out CRT....John builds nice stuff. 

I would install new lines and flush the converter and cooler out before installation. 



Ron

Thanks Ron!  I'll check em out.

[lisiecki1]

i've heard good things about cope racing transmissions www.coperacingtrans.com

anyone have any negative issues with them?

myself personally, i had a negative transmission experience many years ago and opted to build my own this time around...alto clutches, kolene steels, kevlar bands, bolt in sprague, stage 3 valve body, some drag racer tricks that help fluid flow, etc.....if memory serves me I only spent around 500 bucks on parts and built it in a weekend.....

i have a great book on building the 727 if you're interested i can find a link where you can purchase it....

[Runner]

come on bob, if your going to lay out some cash for a well biult tranny go ahead and step up to a 5 speed manual in that bad boy.

[RECHRGD]

i've heard good things about cope racing transmissions www.coperacingtrans.com

anyone have any negative issues with them?

myself personally, i had a negative transmission experience many years ago and opted to build my own this time around...alto clutches, kolene steels, kevlar bands, bolt in sprague, stage 3 valve body, some drag racer tricks that help fluid flow, etc.....if memory serves me I only spent around 500 bucks on parts and built it in a weekend.....

i have a great book on building the 727 if you're interested i can find a link where you can purchase it....

Thanks!  Cope Racing looks like a good option along with CRT.  I don't think I'm up to doing the tranny myself.  I'm so old I can't remember what I did five minutes ago, much less having to concentrate on one thing for a whole weekend.   Bob

come on bob, if your going to lay out some cash for a well biult tranny go ahead and step up to a 5 speed manual in that bad boy.

Geeeze Mike, I'm still just getting used to the gear vendors O/D.  Where would I set my beer if I had to shift the car? 

[lisiecki1]

come on bob, if your going to lay out some cash for a well biult tranny go ahead and step up to a 5 speed manual in that bad boy.

Geeeze Mike, I'm still just getting used to the gear vendors O/D.  Where would I set my beer if I had to shift the car? 
[/quote]

if you do look at manual options, talk to me about the gear vendors overdrive

[BigBlockSam]

tci has a terrible reputation for there trannies

i've never read about TCI's reputation . i only know that i've had mine 8 yrs with no problems

[62 Max]

Older kits used gaskets. I have one that uses gaskets, it was from B@M. Kyle

Depends on who's you buy.Put a Direct Connection deep pan on a 64 Dart that I changed to a  340/727.That was in 1975.Same pan,same extension with O-ring.

[RECHRGD]

I haven't heard anything one way or the other on their trannys.  I know several years ago that the guys over on moparts.com were complaining that their converters were junk.  That was a long time ago and maybe their quality control has improved over the years.  It's funny how a company can get a bad reputation and never be able to rid itself of it.  Bob

[Runner]

Older kits used gaskets. I have one that uses gaskets, it was from B@M. Kyle

Depends on who's you buy.Put a Direct Connection deep pan on a 64 Dart that I changed to a  340/727.That was in 1975.Same pan,same extension with O-ring.

  around 1990 i bought my mpoar performance deep pan and it came with a paper gasket.





   

[tan top]

Older kits used gaskets. I have one that uses gaskets, it was from B@M. Kyle

Depends on who's you buy.Put a Direct Connection deep pan on a 64 Dart that I changed to a  340/727.That was in 1975.Same pan,same extension with O-ring.

  around 1990 i bought my mpoar performance deep pan and it came with a paper gasket.





   

  like i mentioned   !!  paper in mine ....  think it was 05 i got it ...  the pan is not as cast either !! its black in color so its the later type 

[RECHRGD]

I talked to John Cope (CRT) today and ordered his 727-2 Super Street automatic.  It's rated at 450hp and I was thinking of going up to the next level to his pro-street unit, but he said the Super Street would be fine for my build and driving habits.  It should be here in about three weeks.  He'll be sending it with a junk tailpiece for shipping purposes only, as I'll be bolting on the gear vendors unit to it.  Hopefully this will be the last of my tranny issues for many years.  Bob

[Runner]

ive been wondering about you bob.   how much snow did you end up with? im really sick of winter!        im sure crt will biuld you a nice tranny

[RECHRGD]

ive been wondering about you bob.   how much snow did you end up with? im really sick of winter!        im sure crt will biuld you a nice tranny

Hi Mike!  Spokane got over 6 feet of snow in December (all time record) and we usually get about 25% more out here in the sticks.  I quit counting after about 4 feet.  The driveway is solid ice and not melting away any time soon.  Yea, a tropical island sounds good right now.  Anyway, in 2 or 3 months I'll be back in the Charger and all will be well with the world.  Bob

[firefighter3931]

Great news on the tranny, Bob  Hopefully these small issues are behind you forever and you can get some seat time in the car this year. I'm looking forward to your first track report with the upgraded engine combination. 

Dang, that's a lot of snow.  Last winter we had over 14ft total accumulation...not nearly as bad this year but still heavy enough. 



Ron

[RECHRGD]

Great news on the tranny, Bob  Hopefully these small issues are behind you forever and you can get some seat time in the car this year. I'm looking forward to your first track report with the upgraded engine combination. 

Dang, that's a lot of snow.  Last winter we had over 14ft total accumulation...not nearly as bad this year but still heavy enough. 



Ron

14 feet???!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and I'm whining.   I'm hoping to get all the little issues dealt with too.  I still need to get the pinion angle dialed in better, deal with a couple of electrical issues, get new bushings for the leaf springs and better header gaskets.  I'm pretty sure that last tranny was slipping from the get-go and probably affected the dyno numbers somewhat.  So, yea, some time slips will tell the real story.    Bob

[RECHRGD]

Thought I'd finish off this old post with good news.  The new CRT tranny is awesome and I can really feel more power making it to the wheels.  It does have a noticeable clunk on the 2/3 shift under light throttle, but I think that is something that just happens with the transgo shift kit.  Bob