Ford Torino Talladega V. Dodge Charger 500

[Highbanked Hauler]

 It would be interesting to see the results of both of them  in the wind tunnel.

[Ghoste]

Any reliable (not anecdotal) dyno info of what the Hemi and Boss 429 were putting out in 1969 NASCAR trim?

[Aero426]

Ford completed a 500 mile durability test on the Boss 429 at Atlanta Raceway in March 1969 with David Pearson.   Four exhaust configurations were tested with the peak rating of 640 HP at 7250 RPM coming with 4" tailpipes out the back of the car.  With conventional short exhaust dumps, they calculated it at 609 HP.   Both those calculations are corrected for temperature and barometric pressure to achieve comparables.   

[pettybird]

Ford completed a 500 mile durability test on the Boss 429 at Atlanta Raceway in March 1969 with David Pearson.   Four exhaust configurations were tested with the peak rating of 640 HP at 7250 RPM coming with 4" tailpipes out the back of the car.  With conventional short exhaust dumps, they calculated it at 609 HP.   Both those calculations are corrected for temperature and barometric pressure to achieve comparables.   

odd that the full length pipes would increase horsepower?  torque I can see, but at higher RPM's it would seem that the shorter pipes would do better.  they must have had problems with scavenging. 

[Aero426]

There were two variations with the full length pipes.  The difference was in the headers.  Both developed more HP than the short side dumps.   

[Ghoste]

What about a NASCAR Hemi in 69?

[Aero426]

What about a NASCAR Hemi in 69?

I don't have any dyno sheets on a Mopar NASCAR Hemi.  'Bout 600 HP is always the number bantered about.

[Ghoste]

So about the same power in a slightly smaller and lighter car. 

[Aero426]

So about the same power in a slightly smaller and lighter car. 

They all had to weigh the 3900 lb minimum weight.   Maybe the Ford has a little smaller frontal area as Highbank Hauler was mentioning.    The Boss engine has sometimes been mentioned as having just a slight edge on the Hemi for HP.

[pettybird]

i've heard many people speculate that the wing car aero package with modern underpinnings could really fly...  it'd be pretty wild to see what a Roush powered 'dega or an Evernham 500 would have done with all else period correct! 

was there more power available to Isaac for the salt flats runs?

[WINGR]

Since Ford had came up with a new engine for Nascar wasn't it stated that Chrysler considered reworking the Hemi in order to up it's horsepower for the 1969 season but felt that it was too expensive and opted to re-work the cars aerodynamics instead. We all know that the Hemi was far more capable of higher horespower compared to what they were making at that time. If that had happened then I don't think the C500 would have a lost a whole lot of races.

Wingr

[Ghoste]

Yeah, the 5mph edge they were looking for was going to be easier to find in aerodynamics than pushing the Hemi harder.  Interesting considering the rapid way in which the Hemi was (some might say) "thrown" together in time for the 64 Daytona.  The other consideration besides all out power of course was making them run wide open for an entire Sunday afternoon.

[Aero426]

i've heard many people speculate that the wing car aero package with modern underpinnings could really fly...  it'd be pretty wild to see what a Roush powered 'dega or an Evernham 500 would have done with all else period correct! 

was there more power available to Isaac for the salt flats runs?

Good question.  Isaac had some long endurance runs, so I don't think they went with anything exotic.   

[69_500]

I'm pretty sure that when Harry Hyde Jr, was there at the Monster mopar he was talking about the engine was pretty much the same set up they used for races, but that they used a different gear ratio in the rear end. I think it was extremely low, somewhere around a 2.54 or maybe even lower. I have it on tape, but that would take a lot of sorting to figure out what tape, and where on the tape it is.

[WINGR]

I was just looking at some old C500 posts and stumbled back accross this interesting one from awhile back. I wanted to make mention that in many of the C500 race pictures I noticed that they had no rear spoilers on the deck lids, where it seems the Dega's did. I don't believe either one of them had them on the steet cars. I can't help but think that if the C500 would have had a rear spoiler it would have been a big help in the handling department. I also noticed that the Dega's didn't run a front air dams while the 500's did, it seems like that would slow down a car as well. I have heard stories of how the Charger body style lifted in the front before the air dam was added, so they probably had no choice. I would imagine with the angle of the Dega's fenders it helped with the downforce as well as that as the overall cars heigth being down an extra inch they were able to do without an air dam. Just more food for thought.

WINGR

[WINGR]

Anybody have any other thoughts to my last post reply regarding the Dega vs. C500?

[nascarxx29]

Well to begin with Ford had to have had some kind of advantage.To push Chrysler into the 500 development .If it wasnt for Ford there wouldnt be any aero cars

[tan top]

nothing really to add ,  but thinking if the C500s could have run with the twin  4 barrel set up  ,  might have been different   ..as looking at the C500s first race Daytona 500 there was not a whole lot in it , Chargin Charlie was  all over the rear of that torino  as it  crossed the line  

[Aero426]

nothing really to add ,  but thinking if the C500s could have run with the twin  4 barrel set up  ,  might have been different   ..as looking at the C500s first race Daytona 500 there was not a whole lot in it , Chargin Charlie was  all over the rear of that torino  as it  crossed the line  

Glotzbach got blown off by Lee Roy on the backstretch.    Charlie had nothing for him and was a sitting duck.   Lee Roy was just sitting back there waiting.

[tan top]

yeah true        just been watching a video of that race , the way he caught up & blew by him after that pit stop   ..looked like he had more power & better handling in the turn  ... but the shots in the video looked like  Charlie  was all over the back of the torino as it crossed the finish line ,     been watching a few other races ,  the fords & mecurys  ..were so strong compared to the C500s , if a C500 was running first , a ford would drop in behind him , then pass &  proceed to  run away .... on a super speedway ...

[Aero426]

I don't know if it was mentioned before, but Charlie watched the DVD of that Daytona race at the meet in St Louis last fall.   It was pretty funny, because you could see him look up at the finish just to see it turned out any different than he remembered.   It didn't.

[69_500]

I remember talking to Charlie about racing in the 500, and he seemed to think that it was a very nice handling car, but he admitted that the Daytona was a whole other league on the superspeedways.

[WINGR]

Did anyone have any comments on the spoiler thing that I had mentioned before. For some reason the Dega's ran rear spoilers on the race car but not the street versions. I think if the 500's would have had them they would have had more stability on the superspeedway's. Also, I think that the front spoilers, while they kept the front end down they had to have slowed the car down quite a bit. While the Degas and Spoiler 2's didn't use them, probably due to the fact that the front fenders had more of a downward angle and that the car was lower as well.

WINGR

[Aero426]

The rear spoiler question is a good one.   We know that the red Charger 500 test car, chassis 046 had an adjustable rear spoiler blade.   Here it is shown in the Lockheed wind tunnel with the #22 Road Runner getting dropped into the tunnel alongside for the full scale drafting tests.   (They had to drop the full size cars through the roof to get them in.)   The 3/8 scale Plymouth wind tunnel model also had a rear spoiler on it.  So we know they had to have investigated these things.   

[WINGR]

Thanks for mentioning that Doug, I had forgot about that picture. Maybe they found that it slowed it down and there was more of a disadvantage than it was worth. I still think that the front spoiler had to slow that car down alot. It just seems too big, but heck what do i know they were the Engineers.