Ford Torino Talladega V. Dodge Charger 500

[WingCharger]

Okay, I watched a show today on the 1969 Ford Torino Talladega, and I saw the simillarities between it and the Charger 500. I started wondering  who would win one on one in a NASCAR race. BOSS 429 Talladega Four Speed V. HEMI 426 Four Speed 500? What do you think? Equal gear ratios, same tires, etc...


I think the Talladegas look awesome.  This car belongs to a member on here.

[Ghoste]

I love the 500 kid but the record books pretty much speak for themselves.  The Daytona was needed when the Talladega showed the 500 drivers some excellent views of Ford taillights.

[A383Wing]

Was the Boss 429 even an option in the car?   

[Ghoste]

On the street no, it was only available in the Mustang.  He said for a NASCAR race though and that was the place it was built for.

[tan top]

I love the 500 kid but the record books pretty much speak for themselves.  The Daytona was needed when the Talladega showed the 500 drivers some excellent views of Ford taillights.

   yep sad to say  Ghoste is right     

[Ghoste]

There is a lesson to be learned there too.  When Chrysler created the 500, instead of just introducing the thing on race day, they went and promoted it all over the place first and gave Ford plenty of time to prepare a car to beat it.  They weren't so careless with the Daytona.

[Red Ram]

Forgot to include the Matador!

[Mopar2Ya]

The 500 could be bought w/a HEMI though. The 429Boss was just a HEMI copy. It is a nice Phord. The Matador on the other hand. 
Wasn't there a pointy-er front ended Torino prototype?

[Ghoste]

You're thinking of the King Cobra.  There were a couple of prototypes made which still exist but they were intended for the 71 model year and by that time France ended the aero wars.

[69_500]

No offense meant to the Daytona, as we all know it is my all time favorite car. But the 500 had more wins than the Daytona did, and those wins came against cars such as the Talladega and the Cyclone Spoiler II.

It all depends on which track your talking about pitting these two cars at for the one on one race, and who is driving what cars.

I'd take Bobby Isaac in a charger 500 at a track such as Atlanta, Dover, Richmond, Darlington, or any thing like those, over the Talladega. Now if your talkinga about a race at Daytona, or Talladega, and it was Richard Petty in the seat of the Talladega, i'd pick the Talladega.

[Ghoste]

You're right Danny, the 500 did well at the short tracks but as an aero warrior it just couldn't quite keep the Fords at bay.  In truth, the only race that really mattered at the time to Chrysler marketing was the Daytona 500 and that was the one that saw the 500 beaten by the Torino.  After that, the 500 win loss record just didn't matter.
When exactly did the Boss 429 become the Ford engine?

[69_500]

I believe the Boss 429 was raced at Daytona in early 69, i could be wrong though.

Although if you think back the 500 was the class of the field the first race it was in there at Daytona. If it wasn't for a bad tire, the Daytona would have never been built.

[Ghoste]

Of course by bad tire, it means that the Ford team had just made a better choice as far as hardness.  I don't know, I hate to dis the 500 and I think you know that but I still stand by choosing the Boss 429 Talladega over the Hemi 500 in the arena for which they were meant to battle.
To be fair, I don't have a list of finishes for the 500 and I should.  I'm sure that information is easily found with a little effort but I've never taken the time.

[pettybird]

I believe the Boss 429 was raced at Daytona in early 69, i could be wrong though.

Not right away--Doug S will know when NASCAR approved the motor, but the factory race teams painted 'Torino Cobra' on the sides rather than "Talladega" until then...

[hemi68charger]

I love the 500 kid but the record books pretty much speak for themselves.  The Daytona was needed when the Talladega showed the 500 drivers some excellent views of Ford taillights.

That's sort of like saying Obama whipped McCain.. When one looks only at the electoral vote, he did. BUt, when you look at the popular vote, it was pretty darn close...... My point is, and someone correct me if I'm wrong, but the C500 came in second in the '69 Daytona 500 by only half a car length... The reason was Lee Roy Yarbrough had fresh tires and was able to make a last lap sling shot pass to win...

If Charlie would have won, the Daytona probably would have never been born.........  Bobby Issac took 17 victories with him in the '69 season...... That means the '69 Charger 500 fared pretty darn well against the competition..

Troy

[WINGR]

I hear ya Troy. Another important factor in the 69 season is that if Petty would have stayed with Plymouth or been able to run the C500 like he wanted to, than Ford and Mercury would have definatily had a few less wins.

Why, why, why?

WINGR

[Ghoste]

I thought there was already some development work going for the Daytona but as a 70 model and all the 500 loss did was speed up the development?  In any case, I'll stick with my answer unless someone can show me stats where the 500 was outrunning the Blue Oval aero cars on the big tracks.  And didn't Petty switch to Ford after the Daytona came out?  It was the shark nosed car he wanted to run not the 500 is what I had thought?

[hemigeno]

I thought there was already some development work going for the Daytona but as a 70 model and all the 500 loss did was speed up the development?  In any case, I'll stick with my answer unless someone can show me stats where the 500 was outrunning the Blue Oval aero cars on the big tracks.  And didn't Petty switch to Ford after the Daytona came out?  It was the shark nosed car he wanted to run not the 500 is what I had thought?

Ghoste, you're "mostly" right...

Dodge's 1970 (F-series) racecar was already on the drawing board when the '69 Daytona 500 was run.  Granted, it did not have its final design completed until a couple months later, but they were already thinking of what the next salvo in the Aero War was going to be after getting wind of Ford's entries.

Petty switched to Ford just shortly before the 1969 race season began, giving them very little time before Riverside and the subsequent Daytona 500.  The Charger Daytona hadn't been introduced yet - but the King did want to drive a '69 Dodge (the aforementioned well-publicized Charger500).  I guess Richard saw the handwriting on the wall, that the taxi-cab Plymouths were going to have a hard time keeping up even with the Pettys working their magic.  Plymouth told Richard that he was a Plymouth driver and wasn't going to be "allowed" to drive an aero Dodge.  Plus, the Petty clan was chafing quite a bit that Ray Nichels had the lucrative parts distribution contract for the Chrysler racing division.

Danny's right though, the C500 has a better racing pedigree than the Daytona - although almost all of that success was on short-track venues.  The C500 wasn't horribly behind the Talladega in aerodynamic qualitites, but it was admittedly not as good.  The Daytona, on the other hand, had all of them covered (including the Superbird) as far as aero goes.  Doug Schellinger has a piece of correspondence from Ford that conceded this, as their own analysis of the body styles proved.  Don't forget though, that being aero-slick is only one component of being a good racecar.  The Ford teams were just as strong if not stronger in every other facet, and were only behind in the aero department once the Daytona and Superbird came out.  There were lots of other factors that allowed the FoMoCo teams to run with, and often out-perform, their slightly more aerodynamic winged competitors. 

The C500 ended up as a formidable short-track competitor, but was not the super-speedway dominator when compared to the Talladega.  Charlie Glotzbach still nearly won the '69 Daytona 500 in a C500, and it was indeed a tire strategy that beat them that day.  My suspicions are that Dodge had a head-start in getting the C500's race setup perfected, which explains the good showing they had at Daytona.  It didn't take long for the Ford guys to sort out their "new" aerocars though, and after that it became much harder for the C500 to run with them on the superspeedways.

That's my  anyway...

[Aero426]

The 500 was an improvement and a good package, but it was at a slight disadvantage to the Aero Fords on tracks over a mile in length.   The only long track win for a Charger 500 was Isaac in one of the two 125 mile qualifying races at Daytona.    All the others were on tracks 1/2 mile or less.   

Chrysler tipped their hat just a little too early when they announced the Charger 500 would be coming at the fall Charlotte race in '68.    This gave the Ford guys time to react, although the general idea of what became the Talladega had been simmering on their back burner since 1967.

As far as the Boss 429 goes, it was not raced until the Atlanta race in March of '69, where it won right out of the box in Mercury sheet  metal.   The Daytona win in February was with a 427 Tunnelport.  As to Lee Roy's last lap slingshot of Charlie Glotzbach, Charlie has basically said, there was nothing else he could do on that last lap.

Overall, the Spoiler II was the slipperiest of the three non-winged cars, and with the Boss Nine engine, it could really challenge the wing cars on any Sunday.   The BIG difference the wing car had, was of course the rear wing with its ability to tune the car and the side force it generated.  If the wing car got a little loose, the side plates of the wing helped it out.  

[WINGR]

Well said Gene & Doug. Also, a major note of importance as far as the T-Dega's & Spoiler ll's is that they rolled under the rocker panels so it would allow them to lower the car more and still meet Nascar's spec's. I believe that was a major reason why they were so succesful.

WIngr

[Highbanked Hauler]

 Correct me if i am wrong,but i have spent some time looking at the Talladega and the 500 and it looks like the ford is a couple inches narrower.The other thing is because of the pinchweld on the rocker panel that they could drop the car another inch lower. Does anybody know for sure?

[Aero426]

Correct me if i am wrong,but i have spent some time looking at the Talladega and the 500 and it looks like the ford is a couple inches narrower.The other thing is because of the pinchweld on the rocker panel that they could drop the car another inch lower. Does anybody know for sure?

The re-rolled rocker allowed an additional 1" body drop on the race cars.    I have never measured the overall width of my car.   

[Ghoste]

So Doug, Hemi 500 or Boss 9 Talladega in a fight?

[69_500]

Personally I'd still take the HEMI 500 over that Talladega for overall performance. I still think it would be a good race even on a superspeedway though. But when you got the Talladega and the Cyclone II's on Daytona, and Talladega track they were faster than the 500, but not by much. And I think that it at that point all comes down to the teams, and driver's of the cars.

[Aero426]

So Doug, Hemi 500 or Boss 9 Talladega in a fight?

Driver and setup being equal, if the track is over one mile, my money is on the 'Dega.   Those Allison boys look like they are about to settle it.