Panel Adhesive vs. welding?

[PA Dodger]

I haven't done any bodywork in years. I see someone now makes an adhesive that replaces welding for non-structural panels. Has anyone used it? Do you recommend it? I need to put new quarters (not full quarters) on my '69 and like the idea but not if this stuff isn't tried and true.   
Dan

[knitz01]

Weld it and do it right

[daytonalo]

Glue it on !! In two years you can redo it and only then it will cost you triple

[Silver R/T]

when you work with that glue you better have it measured just right, when you set it on there it's not coming back off. When you welding it on you can just tack it on and adjust it as you go

[suntech]

Like the others say.....weld it, and BUY FULL QUARTERS!!!!! Quit d*****g around with the patch panels, now when the full quarters are out on the market!!

[Ghoste]

Glue is for model cars and shortcuts in a collision shop.

[daytonalo]

Last comment not 100 % true , many new cars use 2 part epoxy from Factory and works well for very new cars . For our Junk welding is not an option ,IT IS A MUST !!!!!! For the record a third grader can weld with a mig-welder

[PA Dodger]

OK,welding it is.
I already have a welder so it's no big deal. I was just curious what the new auto body technology has brought us. The last car I painted was with lacquer. I don't think I can even get it around here anymore.
As far as the quarters...I have been buying parts for this car for a while now. I bought them a while back before full quarters were available. Yes I'm kicking myself for not waiting til the last minute like I always do.
Dan

[daytonalo]

I live in south jersey , I do restoration work , I have an opening in one month .

Larry

[bill440rt]

Lots of people have had success with "glue" (proper terminology is "panel bond adhesive").
Depending on WHERE and WHAT you are bonding determines if it's OK to use. I used both a combination of 3M adhesive AND welding on my '69, and so far it's been painted almost 3 years without any problems.
3M's instructions will tell you where it's OK to use & where it's not. I installed a 1/4 skin, new full 1/4's weren't out yet. I used bonding adhesive along the bottoms & wheelhouse, & welded up the rest. One good thing about the adhesive is that it is waterproof, & will keep it from rotting out at the seams down the road.
Obviously, I wouldn't go putting in a frame rail with the stuff, but for little patch panels it was also fine.

Bottom line is that it's not for everyone, and like any other product it can be abused.

[Mike DC]

       
It should be noted that welding is not without problems.  Warping panels for example.  And there's also the metallurgy weakening (brittle) at the site of the welds when you're MIG welding. 

IMHO welding is superior in theory, but only when it's done with good and consistent quality throughout the repair.  That kind of consistency is not as easy to do with a MIG as with glue for most amateurs. 

I've seen A LOT of "professionally done" panel repairs welded on that would scare me in a wreck.  And not just on bodywork that was crummy in general, some of these cases had otherwise great looking work all over the job.  But the tack welds holding the panel were scary.  The panel could have probably been knocked off by hand with a sledge.


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As for glue, there's a lot of reports that glue should not be used for anything that will eventually be a smoothed-out seam (like where the factory quarters meet the roof skin on a Charger).  The story goes that eventually there will be a perceptible "line" developing in the paint surface level where the seam is.

I guess it's an expansion/contraction issue of some kind.  Maybe temperature.  Or maybe the glue just continues to shrink over time.   

 

[Ghoste]

Last comment not 100 % true , many new cars use 2 part epoxy from Factory and works well for very new cars . For our Junk welding is not an option ,IT IS A MUST !!!!!! For the record a third grader can weld with a mig-welder

I would ordinarily agree with you except for the fact that I had an experience with a hood coming apart and slamming into the windshield a few years back when the wonderful factory two part epoxy failed.  I know, welds can fail too and I don't why the glue failed and I don't care, all I know is, I don't trust the stuff.
Oh, and I am by no means challenging your knowledge on the topic Larry, I am only defending my opinion based on an individual experience and because of the experience it is very very unlikely that my opinion will be easily changed.

[PA Dodger]

I'm a good welder but not a great one. The thought of warping a panel or worse made me consider the adhesive. I read a Charger resto book a while ago and thats what they used.  Bill440RT used the method I planned on using. My concern was shrinkage or failure like Ghoste mentioned.

bill440Rt, did you flange and overlap the top weld or butt weld?

daytonalo, I appreciate the offer but this is my therapy through the winter.

Dan

[bill440rt]

Hi Dan,
Yes, I flanged the top seam. I did this BELOW the top belt line, & inward of the front and rear seams. Think of it as a big, floppy patch panel.
I know I posted a thread on this, do a search using the keywords Project '69. Or, just PM me your email address & I can send you photos.

MikeDC is right in the sense that the manufacturers do not want you using the product on an exterior seam, such as the long seam up top by the belt line. You will get a ghost line over time.
Around wheelhouses, rockers, etc the stuff worked great for me. Like yourself, I'm no welding pro, but made sure my welds were 100% where they counted. I made many test welding blanks as practice before welding on the car. Although I have a nice 110v Daytona mig, a buddy of mine lent me his super-deluxe Snap-On welder just for this task. Worked beautifully.
Keep in mind your mating metal MUST be ground clean, rust free, and no contaminants. Read the tech sheets. I liked the 3M stuff, worked out well for me. Shear tests have shown that, when used properly, it can be stronger than welding. That's why new car manufacturers will tell you not to use it around frame rails or other structural areas, it can actually make it too strong where the car will not crush as designed.

[hemi-hampton]

Glue is used on the new cars in the body shops all the time nowadays. I prefer welding myself. Like Bill I flange just under top 1/4 line & dont go into door jamb but usually go all around back edge. BUT, With the new 1/4 panels out I would sell/unload the garbage partial patch you got now & buy the newer full 1/4 panels. LEON.

[PA Dodger]

Now I won't be able to sell them now that you told everyone what they are!!!

[suntech]

Drifter 69 is looking for a driver side patch panel!!! 

[Mike DC]

I would ordinarily agree with you except for the fact that I had an experience with a hood coming apart and slamming into the windshield a few years back when the wonderful factory two part epoxy failed.  I know, welds can fail too and I don't why the glue failed and I don't care, all I know is, I don't trust the stuff.
Oh, and I am by no means challenging your knowledge on the topic Larry, I am only defending my opinion based on an individual experience and because of the experience it is very very unlikely that my opinion will be easily changed.

I think your basic point is valid. 

But at the same time, how many of us don't have a scary story about a weld failing on something? 

[daytonalo]

I don't know how many cars you restored but I do it for a living , when I weld on any kind of panel , 9 out of 10 times I tack it and while its hot it needs to be tapped into shape or ever slightly tweaked . You guy's that are hard core know exactly what I'm talking about . That mickey mouse glue is for bonding a Saturn door skin and has no place in our hobby !

[bill440rt]

I don't know how many cars you restored but I do it for a living , when I weld on any kind of panel , 9 out of 10 times I tack it and while its hot it needs to be tapped into shape or ever slightly tweaked . You guy's that are hard core know exactly what I'm talking about . That mickey mouse glue is for bonding a Saturn door skin and has no place in our hobby !

Hi Larry,

I don't think anyone here is questioning your judgement, opinion, or skill level. I've seen your posts and pictures of the work you've done, it is exceptional.
I am by no means the poster boy for this adhesive stuff, not do I restore cars for a living. But, I am a serious hobbyist and think I've built some fairly nice cars over the years. Those who have seen my cars might back me up on this. All I am saying is that the modern technologies have their place, and can be both used and MIS-used.
Would I recommend the stuff if someone was building a 100-point, concours show poodle? NO!!!! But, for my non-matching numbers, modified street driven hot rod it filled the bill nicely. Which, unplanned of course, is coming out way better than I expected. It'll be another show car when it's done.
I've read a lot about the products, the testing, seen them used, spoke to shops that have used the stuff on cars that were fixed YEARS ago... Cars that see thousands of miles per year with no separation or corrosion issues. Then, of course, there were the cars that were railed again HARD, after the repairs, with NO DAMAGE to the bonded seams at all. The stuff held up as it was intended to do.

If you don't like it or don't want to use it, then DON'T. Heck, I still see shops using red lead!!!

[daytonalo]

Thank you for those kind words ! If you need any advice , feel free to call me . , I will try to help you
Larry @  609-315-2640

[PA Dodger]

Thanks, I've been reading up on this for a while. There seem to be so many differences of opinion on the absolute correct way to do bodywork and why you shouldn't do it any other way it gets confusing. I like to flange the old panel and overlap the new one. Thats how I did it a long time ago. But it hear its very likely to be the beginning of any rust problem. Then I read slice through them both together and butt weld as you go.  Then the adhesive thing came up.
I don't care to do this again a few years down the road so I want to get it right this time...just looking for recommendations on the best way to do quarters, thats all.

[Mike DC]

There seem to be so many differences of opinion on the absolute correct way to do bodywork and why you shouldn't do it any other way it gets confusing. I like to flange the old panel and overlap the new one. Thats how I did it a long time ago. But it hear its very likely to be the beginning of any rust problem. Then I read slice through them both together and butt weld as you go.  Then the adhesive thing came up.

People say overlapped flanges are rust waiting to happen.  But for some reason my Charger was built with a couple hundred feet of these seams all over the unibody at the factory.



These cars are just mass-produced consumer products from 40 years ago.  The factory method is only deserving of so much respect.  But at the same time, what are we doing looking for that level of perfection?  If we're trying to insist on doing the "ultimate" method of everything then we might as well start over on constructing the entire car. 


IMHO butt-welded seams are fine for those who can/want to do them but I don't see why it should be a demand. 

Butt welds are certainly suited for concourse restorations where some severely anal judge is eventually gonna climb into the trunk looking for any extra seams.  But for most of the hobby this is probably too much.  We have to weigh the improvement of a perfect butt-weld against the fact that a mere mortal overlap will probably provide more consistency/strength for a lot of lower/medium-skilled welders. 

When it comes to the average backyard resto, we shouldn't be debating the BEST butt-weld against the BEST overlap.  We should be debating the overall average result of the two methods.  And a lot of that may depend on the restorer, for that matter. 

[hemi-hampton]

Even though I use the flange & overlap method you will not see any extra seams inside my trunk. LEON.