our Hemi Daytona MUST be a fake!

[pettybird]

Thought you guys might get a kick out of this!

(from eBay question to seller for the Daytona)

"Q:     FYI. The dodge club pages and dodge charger forums have dismissed this as a poorly done clone. I understand some ebayers are trying to expose this car and you as a fake. Just thought you should know that the cat is out of the bag. Careful. It's too bad when some people try and misrepresent cars and attempt take advantage of others. Well I'm glad noone else will be taken advantage of. It's always best to be honest. Anything else will usually come back to bite you, like this has. "

The boss's response was pretty terse as you might imagine. 

Now, I've never seen this car and the word fake in the same thread, but apparently we're all ripping the car apart here....  For some reason this guy had a bone to pick with us over some past deal. 

So, to clear the record, does ANYONE here have ANY information that would tell us our car is a clone, poorly done or otherwise?  I know the roof, decklid and hood aren't original pieces, but that doesn't make a car a rebody in anyone's book, let alone a fake. 

[hemigeno]

I don't know that anyone has hinted that the car was faked.  If anything, we've commented that the car is perhaps a tad "over-restored", but to my knowledge no one has questioned it's authenticity.

Wonder what "dodge club pages" he's referring to?

[moparstuart]

I don't know that anyone has hinted that the car was faked.  If anything, we've commented that the car is perhaps a tad "over-restored", but to my knowledge no one has questioned it's authenticity.

Wonder what "dodge club pages" he's referring to?

:    lets see some pictures

[Troy]

And people wondered why I disabled replies to Classified ads...

Obviously you guys know who posted the comments. Perhaps you could enlighten the rest of us. One small thing, the person who posted the first comment said dodge charger forums but your boss responded with "Dodge Charger Forum". There is a difference (I assume... but maybe not). Assuming these are references to public web sites the proof should be easily found on Google - but I'm not finding anything.

Troy

[BigBlockSam]

 

[pettybird]

And people wondered why I disabled replies to Classified ads...

Obviously you guys know who posted the comments. Perhaps you could enlighten the rest of us. One small thing, the person who posted the first comment said dodge charger forums but your boss responded with "Dodge Charger Forum". There is a difference (I assume... but maybe not). Assuming these are references to public web sites the proof should be easily found on Google - but I'm not finding anything.

Troy

i'm not sure on the semantics as the guy is talking out of his ass, but Joe knows there's a dodgecharger.com website... 

I THINK the guy is Arizona Mopars or something to that effect.  I don't know what "Dodge club pages" means, either. 

[nascarxx29]

You mean this one is being called a fake.Its been re roofed due to back in the day owner added sunroof. but that doesnt add up to a rebody

[nascarxx29]

[nascarxx29]

 
Question & Answer Answered On

Q:  FYI. The dodge club pages and dodge charger forums have dismissed this as a poorly done clone. I understand some ebayers are trying to expose this car and you as a fake. Just thought you should know that the cat is out of the bag. Careful. It's too bad when some people try and misrepresent cars and attempt take advantage of others. Well I'm glad noone else will be taken advantage of. It's always best to be honest. Anything else will usually come back to bite you, like this has.  Oct-27-08
A:   Wow, you really must not be selling anything these days, since you seem to be focusing so much on Best of Show Automotive. Could it be that the shrinking market has rejected your misrepresented, overpriced driver crap? We still cant believe that we found a brick in the quarter panel of the 70 Charger you sold us! It's easy to sit back and hide behind a screen or a forum ID and make all sorts of allegations, especially when there's no accountibility and no transparency. If anyone from a "Dodge Forum" would like to "expose this car as a fake", feel free to call me any time. My phone number is: 440-350-1480. Our showroom is open six days per week. Between myself and my employees, we own about 15 wing cars and know them well. If you've been a member of the Winged Warriors, then you know THIS Daytona, since it's been registered since 1974. Heck, I've had people send me pictures of my Daytona from 1973! The nice thing about these cars is there is much history about them. The flip side is that if anyone out there wishes to make an allegation which is patently untrue and has no basis in fact, you are committing slander. Slander is an offense for which there are many civil remedies. Now, we all have better things to do than engage our attorneys to chase after a small group of "forum buddy/experts" who stay up until the wee hours of the morning slandering other people, but please, by all means, send my your real name & address, and proof that you have slandered our car, and we will educate you on what happens in the real world when you attempt to inure someone through slander. How about we just leave it like this: anyone out there in the "Dodge Charger Forum" and "Dodge Club Pages", you have an open invitation to come out an physically inspect our documented, numbers matching Hemi Daytona, to your heart's content. After you do so, I would invite you to be a man, admit that you stuck your foot in your month, and then go back to your forum and tell the truth. 
Q:  Did you watch last week's Vegas Barrett Jackson on the tv? I was there. Prices are near a bottom and now is the time to buy classic cars at a discount. Prices are way off historic highs from 2-3 years ago. I have purchased 3 1969 Chargers in the last 3 months, at 25-50% below what they would have commanded 2 years ago. Don't be sad. It's just a cycle. There are many buyers out there for this car, though it's value is significantly deflated. Right now thgs is not a $350K car anymore. You should expect 50 - 70% of that now. If I was as proud of this car as you are, I'd park it for a few years rather than give it away now. Don't be sad. Hold your chin up and smile.  Oct-25-08
A:   I think it's time for you to sell your inventory and get out of the business. See, I was there also (Barrett Jackson). And what I saw was customs bringing record money and turd muscle cars bringing turd money. I dont deal in turd cars, so I would not have purchased any of those cars. Conversely, I HAVE sold 68 cars over the past 85 days at guide, or better than guide prices. How about you? I've also attended the Hershey auction and the sales in Monterey. Did you happen to attend those? If you did, you'd understand that RECORD PRICES are being paid for the right cars. Are you hurting right now because you are selling retread turd cars purchased at wholesale auctions? Absolutely. When people stop being picky, in 5 to 7 years (not 2 or 3), you will be able to pick up where you left off and start peddling misrepresented crap to people again at strong prices. Until then, get your stuff really cheap ... that's your market.

[PocketThunder]

Am I the only one having a hard time following along here?  Did i miss something over the weekend?  Is this related to another thread?

[moparstuart]

Am I the only one having a hard time following along here?  Did i miss something over the weekend?  Is this related to another thread?

i guess only the (IN CROWD ,IN THE KNOW) people have a clue.     

[pettybird]

someone (apparently who doesn't like my boss or this company) took the time to suggest on our eBay auction that our Hemi Daytona is a fake, and that it's well known on message boards like this that we're perpetrating a fraud. 

now you're one of the cool kids   

[moparstuart]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Dodge-Charger-Daytona-Documented-Restored-1969-Dodge-Charger-Daytona-Hemi_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trkparmsZ72Q3a1416Q7c66Q3a2Q7c65Q3a12Q7c39Q3a1Q7c240Q3a1308QQ_trksidZp3286Q2ec0Q2em14QQhashZitem250313729020QQitemZ250313729020 


    this makes better sense now

[69_500]

Ah words are easy to type, but much harder to back up. It would seem that if I was going to make an accusation that someones car was a fake, or that it was well known to be a fraud, that I've have some proof to back it up. IE a link to the discussion, or a document to make my point, or some photographic evidence.

There are plenty of cars that have been misrepresented over the years, but I've never heard this car being mentioned in that group. And you would think that a HEMI Daytona would be a pretty easy car to remember if it was in a discussion as being a fake/re body/fraud or anything of the like manner.

I say that someone has a few tail feathers that got ruffled along the way, and is now lashing out.

[hemi68charger]

Wow,, who would say she's not original? Like Paul, I guess I missed something............  But, if money's flooding into the market, my '68 Hemi Charger R/T must be worth way more than everyone else is eluding to.. 

I love dealers who try to tell me my car's worth beans, but equivalent cars on the showroom floor are worth a lot. Not singling one shop out over another, only the handful of "brokers and dealers" I've talked to about my car.


700 G's is a heck of a lot of money........

Good luck on the sale.. In the mean time, there's an awesome car to stare at in the showroom.........

Nuff said........   

Troy,,, the "other" Troy

[pettybird]

Wow,, who would say she's not original? Like Paul, I guess I missed something............  But, if money's flooding into the market, my '68 Hemi Charger R/T must be worth way more than everyone else is eluding to.. 

I love dealers who try to tell me my car's worth beans, but equivalent cars on the showroom floor are worth a lot. Not singling one shop out over another, only the handful of "brokers and dealers" I've talked to about my car.


700 G's is a heck of a lot of money........

Good luck on the sale.. In the mean time, there's an awesome car to stare at in the showroom.........

Nuff said........   

Troy,,, the "other" Troy

we're asking silly money for that car.  even Joe knows that.  he likes it, so it stays in silly territory.  besides, no one's made more than a half assed offer on the car...we just keep getting told we're overpriced (thanks.)  he tells me that $650 would take it, but I don't think we've been offered more than 150 for it.  if someone stepped up with a few hundred grand i think the tune would change.  I mean, you'd have to start at $425 just to have him break even.  he'd eat his desk before he lost money on that car. 

we're really only selling MINT cars (no relation to The Cure.)  the 'little guy' is gone thanks to the credit crunch.  so yes, put that thing together and you'll find a buyer.  as it is though it'd be a TOUGH sell at any price.  we get people daily who want to bail on their projects but we have no capacity for them.  we only have three body men and we've got like 8-10 project cars ourselves and 4-6 customer cars. 

whatever keeps me employed, you know?

all this silliness aside, who else is as depressed as I am that the driving season is over?  it's killing me.

[WINGR]

Hey Pettybird, I hear you on the driving season being over.        Is it Spring yet?

Oh heck let's look on the bright side, it will be here before you know it, right?

Hang in there.

WINGR

[nakita7]

Wow, arguing over whether a car is worth $699,000 or $350K or whether it's a fake...sorry, couldn't care less, got bigger fish to fry...

[hemi68charger]

Wow,, who would say she's not original? Like Paul, I guess I missed something............  But, if money's flooding into the market, my '68 Hemi Charger R/T must be worth way more than everyone else is eluding to.. 

I love dealers who try to tell me my car's worth beans, but equivalent cars on the showroom floor are worth a lot. Not singling one shop out over another, only the handful of "brokers and dealers" I've talked to about my car.


700 G's is a heck of a lot of money........

Good luck on the sale.. In the mean time, there's an awesome car to stare at in the showroom.........

Nuff said........   

Troy,,, the "other" Troy

we're asking silly money for that car.  even Joe knows that.  he likes it, so it stays in silly territory.  besides, no one's made more than a half assed offer on the car...we just keep getting told we're overpriced (thanks.)  he tells me that $650 would take it, but I don't think we've been offered more than 150 for it.  if someone stepped up with a few hundred grand i think the tune would change.  I mean, you'd have to start at $425 just to have him break even.  he'd eat his desk before he lost money on that car. 

we're really only selling MINT cars (no relation to The Cure.)  the 'little guy' is gone thanks to the credit crunch.  so yes, put that thing together and you'll find a buyer.  as it is though it'd be a TOUGH sell at any price.  we get people daily who want to bail on their projects but we have no capacity for them.  we only have three body men and we've got like 8-10 project cars ourselves and 4-6 customer cars. 

whatever keeps me employed, you know?

all this silliness aside, who else is as depressed as I am that the driving season is over?  it's killing me.

No body man needed for my car... Just your knowledge on putting her all back together........ Now comes the reason I love living in the South... I can continue to drive and tinker in the garage with the door open..... 

[The70RT]

I guess if people are making a living working for him then good for them. I can't imagine anyone having over 400K in a car    The real winner would have been the person who would have bought the car for 8K then not restored it and sold it a couple years ago. If you want to just show it off I guess eBay is as good as any. If your a millionair who cares what you get out of it?

[moparstuart]

Wow,, who would say she's not original? Like Paul, I guess I missed something............  But, if money's flooding into the market, my '68 Hemi Charger R/T must be worth way more than everyone else is eluding to.. 

I love dealers who try to tell me my car's worth beans, but equivalent cars on the showroom floor are worth a lot. Not singling one shop out over another, only the handful of "brokers and dealers" I've talked to about my car.


700 G's is a heck of a lot of money........

Good luck on the sale.. In the mean time, there's an awesome car to stare at in the showroom.........

Nuff said........   

Troy,,, the "other" Troy

we're asking silly money for that car.  even Joe knows that.  he likes it, so it stays in silly territory.  besides, no one's made more than a half assed offer on the car...we just keep getting told we're overpriced (thanks.)  he tells me that $650 would take it, but I don't think we've been offered more than 150 for it.  if someone stepped up with a few hundred grand i think the tune would change.  I mean, you'd have to start at $425 just to have him break even.  he'd eat his desk before he lost money on that car. 

we're really only selling MINT cars (no relation to The Cure.)  the 'little guy' is gone thanks to the credit crunch.  so yes, put that thing together and you'll find a buyer.  as it is though it'd be a TOUGH sell at any price.  we get people daily who want to bail on their projects but we have no capacity for them.  we only have three body men and we've got like 8-10 project cars ourselves and 4-6 customer cars. 

whatever keeps me employed, you know?

all this silliness aside, who else is as depressed as I am that the driving season is over?  it's killing me.

well at least your not racking up miles on the car and can enjoy it for years to come in it's season !

[The70RT]

Wow,, who would say she's not original? Like Paul, I guess I missed something............  But, if money's flooding into the market, my '68 Hemi Charger R/T must be worth way more than everyone else is eluding to.. 

I love dealers who try to tell me my car's worth beans, but equivalent cars on the showroom floor are worth a lot. Not singling one shop out over another, only the handful of "brokers and dealers" I've talked to about my car.


700 G's is a heck of a lot of money........

Good luck on the sale.. In the mean time, there's an awesome car to stare at in the showroom.........

Nuff said........   

Troy,,, the "other" Troy

we're asking silly money for that car.  even Joe knows that.  he likes it, so it stays in silly territory.  besides, no one's made more than a half assed offer on the car...we just keep getting told we're overpriced (thanks.)  he tells me that $650 would take it, but I don't think we've been offered more than 150 for it.  if someone stepped up with a few hundred grand i think the tune would change.  I mean, you'd have to start at $425 just to have him break even.  he'd eat his desk before he lost money on that car. 

we're really only selling MINT cars (no relation to The Cure.)  the 'little guy' is gone thanks to the credit crunch.  so yes, put that thing together and you'll find a buyer.  as it is though it'd be a TOUGH sell at any price.  we get people daily who want to bail on their projects but we have no capacity for them.  we only have three body men and we've got like 8-10 project cars ourselves and 4-6 customer cars. 

whatever keeps me employed, you know?

all this silliness aside, who else is as depressed as I am that the driving season is over?  it's killing me.

well at least your not racking up miles on the car and can enjoy it for years to come in it's season !

If he's got over 400K in it I don't think it is ever gonna be driven 

[BigBlockSam]

If he's got over 400K in it I don't think it is ever gonna be driven  Undecided

that's a shame. these  cars where meant to be driven .

[pettybird]

Now comes the reason I love living in the South... I can continue to drive and tinker in the garage with the door open..... 

(shakes fist at troy)  you darned kids and your blasted dog!



WINGR it can't come soon enough.  I've gone back to buying HO trains (I've had them since I was a kid) but it's not the same...


I don't like that the cars are that expensive either.  hell when they hit 50 grand people stopped driving them.  IF we reshoot this car it MAY travel another 600 feet.  it's a shame it'll never see the road again. 



so the next smartass comment on the car is that the 274k we're looking at making (difference between what MCG so dutifully reported and our BIN) on the car isn't right, especially since the car is missing its torque boxes (it isn't--don't bother looking) and that it's a rebody due to having a standard setup (which it doesn't.)

ebay RULES!!!

[Old Moparz]

I never understood the need to email those kind of comments & sarcastic questions like that to a seller on ebay or anywhere. Maybe it's the way some people are raised.

[hemi68charger]

Now comes the reason I love living in the South... I can continue to drive and tinker in the garage with the door open..... 

(shakes fist at troy)  you darned kids and your blasted dog!

Kids? Lordy, I'm feeling young now (I'm probably considered an elder-statesman to some, jerk to others..)...............  and keep the dogs off my lawn.............. 

[moparstuart]

Wow,, who would say she's not original? Like Paul, I guess I missed something............  But, if money's flooding into the market, my '68 Hemi Charger R/T must be worth way more than everyone else is eluding to.. 

I love dealers who try to tell me my car's worth beans, but equivalent cars on the showroom floor are worth a lot. Not singling one shop out over another, only the handful of "brokers and dealers" I've talked to about my car.


700 G's is a heck of a lot of money........

Good luck on the sale.. In the mean time, there's an awesome car to stare at in the showroom.........

Nuff said........   

Troy,,, the "other" Troy

we're asking silly money for that car.  even Joe knows that.  he likes it, so it stays in silly territory.  besides, no one's made more than a half assed offer on the car...we just keep getting told we're overpriced (thanks.)  he tells me that $650 would take it, but I don't think we've been offered more than 150 for it.  if someone stepped up with a few hundred grand i think the tune would change.  I mean, you'd have to start at $425 just to have him break even.  he'd eat his desk before he lost money on that car. 

we're really only selling MINT cars (no relation to The Cure.)  the 'little guy' is gone thanks to the credit crunch.  so yes, put that thing together and you'll find a buyer.  as it is though it'd be a TOUGH sell at any price.  we get people daily who want to bail on their projects but we have no capacity for them.  we only have three body men and we've got like 8-10 project cars ourselves and 4-6 customer cars. 

whatever keeps me employed, you know?

all this silliness aside, who else is as depressed as I am that the driving season is over?  it's killing me.

well at least your not racking up miles on the car and can enjoy it for years to come in it's season !

If he's got over 400K in it I don't think it is ever gonna be driven 

I was talking about dougs personal wings , not the million dollar hemi car LOL

[pettybird]

Now comes the reason I love living in the South... I can continue to drive and tinker in the garage with the door open..... 

(shakes fist at troy)  you darned kids and your blasted dog!

Kids? Lordy, I'm feeling young now (I'm probably considered an elder-statesman to some, jerk to others..)...............  and keep the dogs off my lawn.............. 

you gotta be old if you didn't catch the Scooby Doo reference!

[hemi68charger]

Now comes the reason I love living in the South... I can continue to drive and tinker in the garage with the door open..... 

(shakes fist at troy)  you darned kids and your blasted dog!

Kids? Lordy, I'm feeling young now (I'm probably considered an elder-statesman to some, jerk to others..)...............  and keep the dogs off my lawn.............. 

you gotta be old if you didn't catch the Scooby Doo reference!

44 years old, or young, depending on who I talk to.........

[RallyeMike]

Reading the Q & A on this auction, it appears that Joe, in denigrating his inquisitors, has classified most of our rides as "turds" (certainly all of mine).

Well, Joe..... I like my drivers. You'll die rich. I'll die with a smile on my face   

[BigBlockSam]

i remember reading  about someone that had a #1 class superbird . he said if he took his car for an hour ride . it would take 5 hours of cleaning to get it rite .   

[pettybird]

Reading the Q & A on this auction, it appears that Joe, in denigrating his inquisitors, has classified most of our rides as "turds" (certainly all of mine).

Well, Joe..... I like my drivers. You'll die rich. I'll die with a smile on my face   

the guy shooting off his mouth has history with our company (he sold us a badly misrepresented car and was a pain to deal with.)  we also get a TON of know it alls. 


don't take it personally. 

[Magnumcharger]

I just read the ebay ad, and this is something I was wondering about:
"Hemi cars came with 10 specific reinforcements (five per side:)  Rear torque boxes, rear leaf spring triangulation plates, front leaf spring hanger sandwich plates (one on each side of the mounting bulkhead) and rocker panel reinforcement rails.  Convertibles added the front plates but deleted the leaf spring parts".

What are rocker panel reinforcement rails?
 

[hemi68charger]

I just read the ebay ad, and this is something I was wondering about:
"Hemi cars came with 10 specific reinforcements (five per side:)  Rear torque boxes, rear leaf spring triangulation plates, front leaf spring hanger sandwich plates (one on each side of the mounting bulkhead) and rocker panel reinforcement rails.  Convertibles added the front plates but deleted the leaf spring parts".

What are rocker panel reinforcement rails?
 

I'm not sure.... and I own an original '68 Hemi Charger R/T...

I know there's the:
1. torque boxes ( 2ea.)
2. leaf spring front hanger reenforcement plates ( 2ea. )
3. gusset plates ( 2ea. )
4. Pinion snubber reenforcement plate...

grand total if I'm not missing anything is 7..

Here are my comparisons of 440 standard frames and 426 Hemi modifications in the torque box/front hanger area..

1. Dana's 440 setup
2. My Hemi '68 box
3. close-up of the leaf spring front hanger reenforcement plate

I know I know, there are water spots from the final washing prior to delivery... 

[Magnumcharger]

Nice pics of the torque boxes!
I sure could have used those when I was making the set for my Charger! (They turned out nice anyway )

[pettybird]

there's extra steel that runs down the rockers.  you'd have to cut the car to see them.  that's 2.

you're not counting the two-per-side front leaf spring perch plates.  there's one on either side of the bulkhead.  you're showing the ones IN the boxes, but there are another pair directly touching the hangers.  that's the last two


I really did do a bunch of research for this question--I spent nearly an hour.  I do that more frequently than you'd think.  people write us all the time asking for restoration advice, how a particular part is finished on a car, etc.  you'll get blasted if you're out of line but ask in a pleasant way and we're more than happy to oblige.  I wrote that response in a thorough, laid out way to kill further discussion about the car.  i don't like people bashing our wing cars. 

i'd also like to put out a HUGE plug for Frank Badalson--he's a quick shipper, his prices are regularly cheaper than larger outlets, he's great about answering questions or talking you through an order and he knows a TON.  he makes my job a lot easier!

if anyone here has any questions about anything we have feel free to post up, PM or call me. 

[hemi68charger]

there's extra steel that runs down the rockers.  you'd have to cut the car to see them.  that's 2.

you're not counting the two-per-side front leaf spring perch plates.  there's one on either side of the bulkhead.  you're showing the ones IN the boxes, but there are another pair directly touching the hangers.  that's the last two


I really did do a bunch of research for this question--I spent nearly an hour.  I do that more frequently than you'd think.  people write us all the time asking for restoration advice, how a particular part is finished on a car, etc.  you'll get blasted if you're out of line but ask in a pleasant way and we're more than happy to oblige.  I wrote that response in a thorough, laid out way to kill further discussion about the car.  i don't like people bashing our wing cars. 

i'd also like to put out a HUGE plug for Frank Badalson--he's a quick shipper, his prices are regularly cheaper than larger outlets, he's great about answering questions or talking you through an order and he knows a TON.  he makes my job a lot easier!

if anyone here has any questions about anything we have feel free to post up, PM or call me. 

Tada !!!  spot on Doug......... Thanks and yes, there are plates on the hanger side of the attach area... Also, Frank is great.. I've dealt with him numerous times..