aifilaw's latest rebuild *Dyno Update*

[aifilaw]

Well, for once I've got a little money saved up and I'm rebuilding my own car.
about 5 years ago I spun 5&6 bearing on my old race engine, pulled it out and dropped in a 383 to get me going as a daily through college.

The plan,
old mopar body, old mopar block. New technology, daily drivable 100,000+ miles maintenance free.
full hydraulic roller valve train, 5-600 HP, fuel injection, programmable timing, highway gears, road race setup, emphasis on fuel economy and long trip capable.

starting with my favorite classic, the bulletproof 383 short-deck big block in my '72 charger.
This car has been teenage and college owned   (aka no money, and before me, no brains) for 20+ years, and there's a lot that needs done, but I'll focus on the engine for right now.

Pull the heads off earlier this weekend to check the damage and get some entry dimensions off the block so I know what I'm going with, almost perfect stock bore, bores are still in reasonably good shape, deck is nice and flat still.

Already sitting in my garage is a set of brand spanking new:
440Source stealth heads
aluminum roller-rockers (1.5)
hydrallic roller lifters (that's right, guess I'm the guinea pig for 440 sources new valvetrain product)
double-roller timing chain set
and the usual odds and ends that go with those

next up I'll be snagging a 440 source 3.75" stroker kit, although I usually go with diamond, or KB pistons and nothing but speedpro file-fit's, I also can't break the bank since its my own.
Will probably go with I-beam rods.

camshaft is still up in the air at this point, always custom ground from a core, so far I'm at 213.5/236.5 on a 107.8/113.3 centerline and a 10.5 LCA. But that will probably change about a dozen times before I finalize it.
Anyways, here's some pics for whatever its worth.

And yes, for all those who thought it was not possible to remove headers without taking off the starter, or let alone the steering linkage, I have done it...granted with a sawzall. Those headers are over 15 years old, and have been swapped on to 3 different motors, time for new ones.

Tomorrow I'll have to find a decent machine shop in this town since I've moved to do the block work, once they start in on the block it will give me the time I need to hand-port the stealths and get a little more out of the exhaust side, and then have the machine shop back-cut the valves

[firefighter3931]

Cool project ! 

Looking forward to the progress pix of this build. 

Any plans for a dyno thrash once it's all together ? 



Ron

[aifilaw]

Any plans for a dyno thrash once it's all together ? 

Absolutely, how else am I supposed to nail my timing and fuel trims dead-on

[firefighter3931]

  Once it's all done we can add it to the database 


Ron

[aifilaw]

I grabbed a few items for snapshots.
All I am missing are the cam and the pushrods, and I never order pushrods until after everything is fitted up to avoid wasting time/money.

New HV oil pump - pretty much an absolute must imo for any rebuild.
H-beam rods, forged pistons, the stroker crank 3.75" double roller chain
Also at the bottom are a close-up of the roller rockers and hydraulic roller lifters.

[BigBlockSam]

 

[aifilaw]

The Machine work was done by the best and least known mopar machine shop within about 400 miles. I say that because I am unaware of anyone more knowledgeable regarding mopar BB's or SB's, cylinder head flow, et cetera in Houston, Austin, or San Antonio; and he beats the pants off of anyone in Dallas. To say nothing of being the only one with a deck plate this side of Dallas.
Suffice it to say, if you want something done, and done well, go to T&K Machine in Flint, TX. I found this fellow mopar enthusiast by accident while racing against my friends 68 SS camaro down country roads about 4 or 5 years ago, and saw a shop with two cuda's, two dusters, and a roadrunner out front... stopped and had a 4-hour chat with one of the nicest and most knowledgeable guys I've met since Chryco.

Had a simple and standard bore, hone, and decking done to the block. This particular engine block I bought to replace the last one that was destroyed drag racing just as a stop-gap to get me back on the road as a college daily driver. It turned out to be a '66 383 block, and interestingly enough the skirts are pulled way back, leaving plenty of room for even the largest crank I could imagine to fit. Clearancing wasn't necessary for the 440 crank, had about a 1/2" on the rod bolt heads from the base of the cylinders, and the cylinders at a glance look like I could take about 2 tenths off without coming close to water, looks like a dream block. It was virgin 4.25" bore and I could still see some hatch when I pulled it if you notice the pictures from earlier. But I took it out to 0.030 for the new pistons.

The stealth heads flowed 255 at 0.5" lift on the intake at 28" static. His flow bench is well calibrated on per-use basis, and his numbers jive with reality I've seen a lot on other heads, so I trust it within 5 cfm for certain. 290 cfm on the intake is what 440source claims... but then again, so did edelbrick. There's plenty of room for addition to that, but for the money it certainly is worth it.
Out of the box edelbrock and 440source look almost identical in every way, the plugs are not angled, the intake ports are smaller on the stealth heads.
The camshaft going in is a 280/288 comp cams hydraulic roller 0.541/0.537. I'll be getting new keepers and retainers since I don't trust the 7-degree's that are in there, and 440source actually mentions anything going over 0.500 lift needs them.
I'm having him do a simple valve job to clean it up and unlock a little more, a back-cut on the intake and exhaust.
I'll post flow numbers before and after across the range, but I also noticed that with the valve installed I could see a few bit of light looking down the port...not surprising, but rather disappointing that it came that way.

[68pplcharger]

 

[aifilaw]

Everything was double-checked and I must say I've got strike 2 for 440-source if I were looking to buy, and then install without measuring and double-checking.
The both sides of the rod end were at exactly zero clearance, on every single rod. These were the H-beams that came with the kit, we had to open them up to a reasonable number to allow installation, let alone a smooth turning surface. Rather strange for a full rotating assembly that was balanced from them.
Also, one of the valve seals was improperly made and had to be replaced.

I had the intake and exhaust valve back-cut to give some more flow at a single 30-degree. and the seats cleaned up.

Suffice it to say, have everything double checked before you install.

The short-block is completely assembled, I did my best to remember everything I needed, but chevy had to custom make a cam holding button for me out of aluminum, they have a drag-car daytona that's had one for several thousand miles and no problems. No crank bolt, No new bolts for the mains (could have sworn I bought those through 440source, but the kit came with everything except).

Ordering ball-cup pushrods now for the appropriate length, I think my biggest problem is going to be trying to find new hardware for all the little bolts and screws that are now lost/misplaced (oilpan, valleypan, valve-cover).

The head gaskets that came with the 440-source kit were not trustworthy, so better were used.

Bottom line, you need to (and I'm sure 440source will say this also) spend $300-700 all said and done for a stroker kit + stealth heads to ensure clearances and work before final assembly, or your motor might not last 500 miles.

Pics to follow

[firefighter3931]

Thanks for the Update. 

It sounds like you're getting everything squared away and building it right. Fwiw, the machinist i use sends every 440 Sorcerer crank out for a 10/10 cut....he doesn't even bother measuring them anymore. 



Ron

[aifilaw]

Yeah, its pretty much standard practice, even when I used to use diamond pistons I would have them checked...they were never wrong, but I always had to check, better safe than pissing thousands of dollars down the drain.

[john108]

I hate to ask but what is a 10/10 cut?

[idahogrumpy]

Aifilaw, Our problem with the 440 source kit was getting proper side clearance on the rods. Bearings had to be chamfered a bunch to clear the crank. Kyle

[firefighter3931]

I hate to ask but what is a 10/10 cut?

John a 10/10 cut is basicly cutting the crank 10 thou on the main and rod journals.



Ron

[68pplcharger]

It doesn't sound like 440 source is much of a savings. After spending all that money fixing the problems from the kit, or heads, you could get higher priced parts without the issues. Price seems to be approximately the same afterwards, maybe higher, and no headaches.

[aifilaw]

It doesn't sound like 440 source is much of a savings. After spending all that money fixing the problems from the kit, or heads, you could get higher priced parts without the issues. Price seems to be approximately the same afterwards, maybe higher, and no headaches.

I would actually debate that.
If I want quality, I buy diamond, INDY, speed-pro.... which doubles the cost.
Anything else and I am out the same price in machine work
Regardless I'm still out the cost of checking their machine work.

In the case of machine work+checking+440-source I'm only out maybe $5-700 in machining, that includes a bore, hone, deck, valve job, and back-cut, which makes up the vast majority of that price.

I'd say 440-source stuff (as long as it doesn't snap in half, which I highly doubt from what I hear will happen) is still 40% less expensive.

[68pplcharger]

The reason I mentioned the cost being approximately the same is the Indy stroker kit for a 383 or 440 is $1725 + $95 Balancing = $1820. The 440 source website lists $1897 for their stroker kits final balanced. This is a very similar price and actually cheaper for Indy. Both utilizing 4340 cranks and H-beam rods. If the work done by 440 source is not reliable, and from what I've read on this site they are not, i would have to go with Indy as a source. I pulled these numbers directly off of the respective websites. Are there hidden charges I'm missing? Just trying to figure out the best, most reliable source, and relatively cheap source.

[aifilaw]

Two factors, 1. I didn't know INDY stroker kits had come down that far in price..

Also, there was nothing wrong with the 440-Source kit (product wise), or balancing job... I measured them and they were less than half a gram between each.

As far as the short-block parts and components, the problem I had was the size of the holes in the rod for the crank journal, and for the piston pin. This cost me $200 exactly in machine work and labor to correct, and I would expect at least the labor cost to check, if not the machine work from any kit, including INDY. Which means perhaps 440-source was another $100 on top of the price for the kit+balance.
A factor for me is that few people sell a true all-inclusive kit for a 383->426 with the correct rod-ratio and quality pistons, H-Beams....

So to wit, all things being considered, if INDY charges $1820 for a balanced stroker kit and offers the same or better quality parts to 440-source, I would have bought from INDY. Guess I know to check for next time.
Could you link me to the place you saw the INDY stroker kit?

[Musicman]

That's the only kit they sell at that price however, from there they go up... and they only have the one 383 kit... if it doesn't fit your build oh well, you'll have to buy more stuff to make it fit. 440source has 10 different 383 kits, and a total of 68 big block kits to choose from... and their all the same price regardless.
Actually, I find it kind of comical the way so many companies have recently come down on their stroker kit prices since 440source started producing them. Of course the down side to this is that it may come at a price. 440source is a mix of Import and American made products which is why their price is so low compared to some of their competitors who are producing and selling only 100% American made products.

[aifilaw]

"American made" I doubt exists anymore... even American made products, the raw materials are shipped in from overseas... I hate Chinese copper and steel

[Musicman]

  what American Steel... they all shut down and moved to China

[68pplcharger]

Posted by: aifilaw 
Insert Quote
Two factors, 1. I didn't know INDY stroker kits had come down that far in price..

Also, there was nothing wrong with the 440-Source kit (product wise), or balancing job... I measured them and they were less than half a gram between each.

As far as the short-block parts and components, the problem I had was the size of the holes in the rod for the crank journal, and for the piston pin. This cost me $200 exactly in machine work and labor to correct, and I would expect at least the labor cost to check, if not the machine work from any kit, including INDY. Which means perhaps 440-source was another $100 on top of the price for the kit+balance.
A factor for me is that few people sell a true all-inclusive kit for a 383->426 with the correct rod-ratio and quality pistons, H-Beams....

So to wit, all things being considered, if INDY charges $1820 for a balanced stroker kit and offers the same or better quality parts to 440-source, I would have bought from INDY. Guess I know to check for next time.
Could you link me to the place you saw the INDY stroker kit?





It strikes me as odd that nobody would warranty the parts they sell you. If you buy rods to fit a 440, for example, rods obviously need to be within tolerance for that crank journal, wrist pin, as well as weight. The crank journals need to be within tolerance as well. If what you are saying is true then nobody double checks a stroker kit before sending it to the customer, that is disturbing. It would seem to me that you could send it back for a new part, or parts, or they should regrind the parts that are out of tolerance for free (yea right). I'm pretty sure these parts are specified as plug and play after they've been balanced. I realize that these companies(Indy and 440 source) are not totally responsible for another companies(Eagle etc.) faults, but they are selling said companies products and need to hold that company liable. I've put together a few stroker kits over the years with eagle parts and never found a problem, they were always more than acceptable in size and balance. They were Chevy kits from Doug Herbert and Summit Racing, but that shouldn't matter.

The link to Indy is [url]/ http://www.indyheads.com/pricing.html [url] I just grabbed a quick reference to compare. The Indy 383 stroker is actually a 3.9" crank. Indy has 6 kits from $1425- $2250 price range, depends on block 400, 383, 440 etc. Some block only have one kit but not all.

[aifilaw]

Unless you document the build process and procedure thoroughly, you will be VERY hard-pressed to get a warranty, or obtain a warranty replacement on any parts such as these... and by document I mean have full video evidence of the entire process from start to finish.

I've built about a dozen 383's, granted most were done more than 6 years ago, and back then only quality parts really existed (as long as I didn't buy MP parts).
When I did, I bought things like speed-pro, and diamond, which never, ever was off in sizing by more than 1-2 thousandths. That didn't mean they weren't checked before installation.
I'm sure companies like 440-source would love to warranty their product against things such as this, but they are just protecting themselves lest they go out of business. I am willing to bet if a 440source warranty employee were on this board and honestly answered the question of how many people bought their kit, had their machine shop do a simple bore, hone, and deck job. Then assembled the parts as they came in the box and fired it up which resulted in it breaking within the first 500 miles I'm betting the number would make you stagger in disbelief.

[aifilaw]

Paint is finished, pushrods should arrive tomorrow night and I can finish assemblying the valvetrain, may be able to get the cam degreed if I stay up late enough.

It is a pain the butt to find ball-cup pushrods close to 7.25" for a mopar

[Rolling_Thunder]

is that the correct turquoise ?    or is it supposed to be chrysler blue ? 

[firefighter3931]

Looks great....going for the correct "stock" look/color i see ! 

Are you painting the heads and top end ?


Ron

[aifilaw]

That is factory mopar blue yes.
Just painting the block and oil pump... considered the water pump housing... but perhaps no...
considered the valley pan, but I think I will also leave that alone since it is protecting it from dust and I don't want to remove it for the 4+ hours to dry slightly.

Why get aluminum heads if I can't show off their aluminum? 

[firefighter3931]

Why get aluminum heads if I can't show off their aluminum? 

I like the way you think ! 


Ron

[aifilaw]

Called it a night around 11, got a good 4-5 hours in on the engine.

I had forgotten what a PITA it is to set up a valve train geometry, non-adjustable rockers will make you soft I guess.
I ended up using 90% of the shims that come with the complete 440-source kit, they aren't there just for show.. important to note for those who have them and plan on using them, much like a washer they have a smoothed side and the other will have a hard edge where it was stamped by a machine, you want to keep that facing either another hard edge from another washer, or the hold-down blocks.
Pushrods finally showed up, so I finished up the valvetrain and prepped the pan and windage tray to dry and be put on tomorrow.
Missing or replacing a lot of bolts.... so this will take more than a few trips to the store, I'm also trying to figure out where my @#$@#$ oilpan plug ran off too, and what to plug hole under the fuel pump connection with.

[aifilaw]

You can always tell a mopar nut just by his toolbox, if he's got a 1-1/4" socket in there, 8/10 times its a mopar guy. The other 2 are usually oilfield or diesel mechanics.
I used to have (much like so many of my other tools that either got borrowed and never returned, or lost during the move back to Texas) a special extra long crankshaft bolt and washer for easing in the harmonic balancer the first 1-2 inches until the real bolt can reach threads...oh well, rubber mallet will have to do.

[Rolling_Thunder]

looking good man     

[Musicman]

Outstanding... Looking real good 

Mike

[Hemidog]

Outstanding... Looking real good 

Mike

[aifilaw]

Pamela is drying before I torque the oilpan past 5 ft lbs.
Discovered my drain plug is gone.....
I'm going to have to make a list tomorrow morning of all the bolts, sizes, and lengths I need to finish putting it back together... missing so many. Having to use some of the old valvetrain hold-down bolts for the water-pump, Completely missing everything for the fuel pump cover-plate, Missing the bottom 4 timing cover bolts, Missing half the valley-pan hold-down bolts, probably missing half the valve-cover bolts.

Side-note for 440-source customers, the rear main seal side-slat seals are a big pain to get in, until you figure it out and then wish you hadn't wasted 15 minutes. Set them about 90% in, then slide the block in with thumbs while helping the seals in on each side with your fingers, oil will be needed to help them move, and it will still take a few tries to get it right. Their instructions are useless.

Also, the holes in the base for the oil-pan are not deep enough for stock bolts, you will need two washers (standard size washers for that size shank on the bolt).

[Chryco Psycho]

 

[aifilaw]

Well, the complete long-block is fully assembled with the carb ready to drop in the car... and yesterday I get a call from 440source...

and I quote:
The hydraulic roller lifters you ordered back in August of last year have been recalled!
Only 24 of the thousands we sold have been recalled...
No the manufacturer is no longer making them... I guess you could buy comps.


I will say some of them seemed a little tight in the galleys.



Guess I need to pull apart the top end again and buy some comps

[Musicman]

In your case, it's always better to find these things out now than later
It's a real PITA for sure, but at least your engine is still on the stand and not in the vehicle 

[aifilaw]

It's been months!!

But the comp lifters finally showed up. I tore the top end off and cleaned it, re-assembled the valve-train, reset the lash and put it back together last weekend.
This weekend I finished a little modding on engine mounts (drilling a hole through the elephant and placing a carriage bolt in there to keep the driver-side from shearing off due to torque as is what usually happens to my stock or high performance engine mounts.

Dropped the engine back in the hole... next step is affixing the transmission to it, the starter, carb, headers and linkage... and maybe if I'm lucky firing it up!!

I remembered to place the headers in with zip-ties as the engine was halfway down, so installing the headers will not be a PITA as it always is. This set of hooker comps looks like they fixed their clearance issue of the starter... but we shall see...

if I do start it, I will pull a new line from fuel pump out of a gas can. I don't trust whatever gas was in the main tank, and it really ought to be cleaned.... besides the level gauge hasn't worked in over a year. so many things to fix.

Battery tray is rusted out, only rust on the car.... I will need to fabricate a new one, since I doubt anyone makes a reproduction for a reasonable price.

[Chryco Psycho]

I was going to suggest Smith bros for the Pushrods they will make any lenght or strength within 2 days & ship them to you

[aifilaw]

Spent 4 hours doing a job that should have taken 1.... bolting the transmission back to the block and the passenger headers..

bought some hood hinges, sandblasted and painted...

[ralley72]

Interesting read, those hinges never looked better.


Mike

[aifilaw]

Got the accessories mounted this afternoon and the driver-side header and starter in.
Checked the spark gap and installed all of those and ran into something I hadn't anticipated...

I'm used to being able to do about 1/2 of the plugs with a standard 13/16ths spark plug socket, and the remaining with a 13/16ths combo wrench.... but these heads were designed improperly, such that the base of the cylinder head interferes with the spark plug during the last 1 full turn. It was a nightmare getting them all "torqued" properly (and I say that in quotations because it was impossible to torque more than 3 plugs).
I'm guessing people typically have to order longer base spark plugs for these applications to get around that issue, since as you screw them in you can no longer get a wrench or socket onto the standard spark plugs.

Also, hooker competition headers appears to have redesigned their header design!!!
This is the first time I've ever not had to get out a torch and a hammer and "adjust" some headers on the driver side to clear the starter, or steering box. They slipped right in there with the proper amount of room all around. Or at least the first time on a set that was not made by TTI.

[Smokey Bear]

I'm used to being able to do about 1/2 of the plugs with a standard 13/16ths spark plug socket, and the remaining with a 13/16ths combo wrench.... but these heads were designed improperly, such that the base of the cylinder head interferes with the spark plug during the last 1 full turn. It was a nightmare getting them all "torqued" properly (and I say that in quotations because it was impossible to torque more than 3 plugs).
I'm guessing people typically have to order longer base spark plugs for these applications to get around that issue, since as you screw them in you can no longer get a wrench or socket onto the standard spark plugs.

Yer guessing right - you have the wrong plugs. Check w/ 440 source and get the right 5/8" plugs.

Looking at the top of that motor I would never guess what lay underneath. Stealth bomber!

[aifilaw]

Anyone got a part number cross-reference for NGK ?

[dstryr]

Here's a thread on NGKs.  Hope this is what you are looking for.

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,42598.msg468653.html#msg468653

[aifilaw]

Bingo, thanks

[aifilaw]

I think I will officially fire this thing up on Saturday morning. open headers (no choice due to collector bolts not matching to existing exhaust) off of a dropped line into a fuel jug.
get it running, spin it around in the garage so I can drop the fuel tank and make sure its clean, fix the sending unit were off.

[aifilaw]

It's alive!
sounds mean, audio cuts out very loud noises on the video....

After wasting 2 hours hunting down a wiring problem which turned out to be the ignition switch failing and swapping that out, I re-primed the engine and got it fired up right off the get-go; had to adjust the timing about 5-10 degrees perhaps. I know for some that is a foreign concept, but if you take your time and remember to do the little things (like find TDC on cylinder 1, map that to the spark plugs, ensure air and fuel and spark are all going to be there on queue... things go so much quicker and with less wear/tear/damage)

http://www.mediafire.com/file/mnzlz2twgy2/CIMG5491.MOV

http://www.mediafire.com/file/ydeygqw4nmm/CIMG5492.MOV

[Musicman]

No thanks... to many viruses pop up on those links

[aifilaw]

Took it to a Dynojet today and fought through some carb issues. Still have a nasty flat spot between 2600 and 3400 RPM that I can't seem to get rid of, and the best run was running about a point rich.

But it put down 402 HP @ 5500 RPM and 412 ft. lbs of torque # 4400 RPM at the wheels through an old tired 727 and converter to 3.55 8-3/4 rear on 29"tires.

I know this to be a fairly conservative dyno (see: realistic) seeing as he regularly runs about 10-25 HP less than other dynojets in the area and Dallas when people run their cars in both places to compare.
I would guess the losses of the drive-train in this case are ~20% so the power at the engine is probably 507HP and 520 ft lbs of torque.

As a Re-Cap here is everything laid out:

Camshaft: XR280HR-10
Advertised Duration: 280/288
Duration @ 0.50: 230/236
Lift: 0.541/0.537
IVO: 9
IVC: 41
EVO: 52
EVC: 4

Rockers: 1.5 Ratio 440Source Roller Rockers
Lifters: CompCams hydraulic roller lifters

Heads: 440Source Stealth Heads
15-degree locks and retainers
stock springs (will be changed soon)
30-degree back-cut on intake and exhaust valves

Rotating Assembly:
440Source 383->430 stroker kit, fully balanced and blueprinted (checked and clearanced properly). Flat-top pistons with valve reliefs

Block: 383, now 430 Cubes

Currently have a Holley 870 Street Avenger on top, will do fuel injection as the end-game, and possibly a 750DPer if I can ever find one.

[OttawaCharger]

  Sweet! 

[firefighter3931]

Very nice power numbers 

Ron

[Musicman]

 

[aifilaw]

fixed the video link to a different host
http://videos.streetfire.net/video/initial-startup-on-charger_2009916.htm

[dstryr]

congrats!
Had to pull the intake & carbs and distributor from my new motor and put it back on the motor in the RR... moving soon and working away from home a fair amount so no time to do anything but get the RR back under its own power; first drive of the year was last Sunday afternoon between rain showers.  New motor needs paint and outfitted still so maybe I'll have it in by summer's end.