dropping fuel prices

[Silver R/T]

finally they're dropping a bit, I wonder how low they'll go until greedy oil companies realize they wont make as many billions selling overpriced fuel.

[Brock Samson]

can I borrow someone's decoder ring please?..   

[694spdRT]

Gas went down 10 cents and diesel went up 40 cents in one day. Last I checked diesel was $3.49 and gas was $2.59 for 87.

I was trying to justify buying a Cummins diesel and they keep throwing obstacles at me. 

[RD]

seriously, that is something i do not understand (other than the holiday season coming up).  Why does diesel cost a dollar more now?  When gas was 3.09 diesel was 2.65, now gas is 2.19 here and gas is 3.25.

Can someone oil/gas savvy provide me with an answer?  I just do not get it.

[Vainglory, Esq.]

That I don't particularly get, although demand for diesel has more than doubled in about a year, I think.

[FourSpeedRT]

They have dropped off a bit in Canada here too....where I live it's 99.9 per litre...about 3.30 per gallon(Cdn). Still too high in my estimation. Diesel is 1.10 per liter...not long ago it was cheaper....

[Todd Wilson]

seriously, that is something i do not understand (other than the holiday season coming up).   Why does diesel cost a dollar more now?   When gas was 3.09 diesel was 2.65, now gas is 2.19 here and gas is 3.25.

Can someone oil/gas savvy provide me with an answer?   I just do not get it.

The demand for more diesel over the last 10 yerars or so I can understand. We are seeing more diesel pickups and cars out there then ever before. Refineries have only been setup to process so much diesel fuel.  I can understand diesel being a bit more priced then it once was but I think the reason why diesel is higher now is because of the winter season. They know trucks (which use the most diesel) probably wont be shut off in the cold as much as during the summer. So the truckers will use more fuel and the holiday shipping season is just about here.


Todd

[Charger_Croatia]

seriously, that is something i do not understand (other than the holiday season coming up).  Why does diesel cost a dollar more now?  When gas was 3.09 diesel was 2.65, now gas is 2.19 here and gas is 3.25.

Can someone oil/gas savvy provide me with an answer?  I just do not get it.

Nothing changed here regarding fuel prices, we'll be lucky it they stay at this level.
BTW, diesel fuel is cheaper in Europe. In my country diesel costs almost $1 less than unleaded petrol. 

[Duey]

"They" say that the home heating fuel market reduces diesel stocks during the winter, hence they jack the price...always happens in late fall in Canada, D-1 also takes a slight bit more refining than D-2 in the summer but that's only a penny or two per litre (3-5 per gallon)...

Cheers,
Duey

[RD]

so heating oil is derived from diesel fuel?  if that is true, then the price being so high would make sense in the winter.

[694spdRT]

Farmers use a lot of diesel in the fall harvest also. I still don't get the sudden flip flop though....winter heating seasons have been around for a while now. I never remember 40 cent spikes overnight.

[70charginglizard]

Of corse its dropping...demand in the winter is low. Price goes down.
Typical every year.
I garentee you thought come spring they will skyrocket up once again.

[RD]

2.95 for diesel now

[tin_soldier]

diesel fuel is the same thing as your heating fuel.   It is just a different color.   The additive was added so that if trucker got pulled over the cops would now if they were running heating oil or auto fuel.    heating oil back than was cheaper the the diesel feul. It is a scam.   

heating is refined the same way.   I am plaing on buying diesl fuel fro the pump and putting in my heatin oil tank.   5 gallons at a time.   sloww and steady wins the race.   better than filling up at 3.25 a gallon at the pump it is 2.95

[253862656971]

What I hate most about the price of fuel is diesel.   Diesel is almost the lowest grade fuel you can buy, borderline kerosene, so it would stand to reason it would be the cheapest right?   Around here it's about $3.25 a gallon.   My dad and I hauled a D8, a blade, and a plow this weekend.   It is 100 miles round trip and we made 2 trips to get the plow and blade, then fueled.   We only got about 10 mpg and it ended up costing over $100 to fill the tanks on the pickup.   Never would I have thought that it would be cheaper to drive the Charger than it is to drive the pickup.   Insurance is even cheaper for the Charger for same the coverage.   Go figure!   

As for the offroad diesel.  Last time anyone I knew was checked was 30 years ago.  We're starting to cheat a little.

[69bananabeast]

$2.41 right now for 87  in San Antonio

[Duey]

so heating oil is derived from diesel fuel?  if that is true, then the price being so high would make sense in the winter.

Racedodge, they're so close on the cracking tower that when you make more of one, you get a fair bit less of the other.  I still think it's marketing crap because highway transport and off-road diesel (construction and trains) still use far more than home oil heating so the effect should not be nearly as large as we see at the pumps.

Anyone in Latta, SC...diesel's 2.49 at the Flying J!

[Bob]

$2.23 SOUTH CENTRAL PA.

[derailed]

Of corse its dropping...demand in the winter is low. Price goes down.
Typical every year.
I garentee you thought come spring they will skyrocket up once again.

[Charger_Fan]

On a related topic, I heard on the radio this morning that our state government (Utah) is hastily trying to pass a bill to allow a bunch of new oil drilling across Utah & Wyoming.
The treehuggers are gonna have to scramble on this one.

[Todd Wilson]

diesel fuel is the same thing as your heating fuel.   It is just a different color.   The additive was added so that if trucker got pulled over the cops would now if they were running heating oil or auto fuel.    heating oil back than was cheaper the the diesel feul. It is a scam.   

heating is refined the same way.   I am plaing on buying diesl fuel fro the pump and putting in my heatin oil tank.   5 gallons at a time.   sloww and steady wins the race.   better than filling up at 3.25 a gallon at the pump it is 2.95

Diesel fuel and heating oil are not the same thing. They are in the same family but different grades. Your heating oil is probably grade 5 or 6 which is a thicker almost gell like. Grade 1 and 2 are what is common in vehicles. Grade 3-4 are used in other applications such as locomotives and big diesel type engines in ships and generators. each grade has different sulfer content and designed to run in specific type running conditions.


Todd

[Todd Wilson]

As for the offroad diesel.   Last time anyone I knew was checked was 30 years ago.   We're starting to cheat a little.

You are lucky. In kansas here the DOT will stop by the sale barn when the farmers are in the arena buying or selling cattle and dip the tank on pickup trucks. They also stop big trucks all the time around here and check.


Todd

[Todd Wilson]

Another interesting thing I learned recently since I work for the railroad.   The railroad tells the fuel company what they will pay for a gallon of diesel fuel for the locomotives. We have a fuel company in town with a contract. They have to watch the price of fuel constantly and come fuel our locomotives when they think they can make their profit. If the price goes above what the contract states  the fuel company has to fuel the locomotives and take the loss on $.  Our situation where I work has 4 locomotives and this can be 12000 gallons of fuel every few days.

What they do is turn in a bid  saying they can fill locomotives for 2$ a gallon.  Wholesale price of the fuel is $1.80 a gallon. They factor in a 20cent profit. But say 3 days from now the wholesale price jumps to $1.95 a glalon then they only get 5 cent a gallon profit. If it jumps above the 2$ amount in wholesale price then they take the hit. The railroad will only pay 2$ or what ever the agreed price was for that bid contract. These contracts only last a week or 2 and then it starts over.

Our fuel company was out on a sunday one time fueling engines and I asked what he was doing out on a sunday. It was the owner of the company. He said diesel is expected to take a jump in price monday morning and he didnt want to get caught on the short end of the contract. So he filled the locomotives today. Thats when he told me about how things work.

I suspect other bigger companys in the transportation industry do the same thing. Something everyday people dont know about.


Todd

[Charger_Fan]

BTW, what's a fuel thread without a new sign pic?

(looks like whoever did the pic was related to Silver)

[derailed]

Interesting info Todd, I looked at a fuel ticket last week and CP was paying 2.24/gallon in Albany. I guess when you buy that much fuel they better give you some kind of break.

[chrisII]

diesel fuel is the same thing as your heating fuel.   It is just a different color.   The additive was added so that if trucker got pulled over the cops would now if they were running heating oil or auto fuel.    heating oil back than was cheaper the the diesel feul. It is a scam.   

heating is refined the same way.   I am plaing on buying diesl fuel fro the pump and putting in my heatin oil tank.   5 gallons at a time.   sloww and steady wins the race.   better than filling up at 3.25 a gallon at the pump it is 2.95

next time ya have your oil burner tank filled, take a look..most heating oil is #2. it is dyed differently than "on road" or "off road"diesel beacuase they are all taxed differently. its all the governments scam.  all these arseholes are spoutin off about lowering gas tax when in reality not taxing gas wouldnt help the econmy as much as lowering or droping the tax on diesel. BUT, just like anything else they would have to find a way to make it up.
     How many here actually use oil for heating anymore?? over the last 15-20 years alot of oil burners in this area have ben taken out and replaced with natural gas.


Diesel fuel and heating oil are not the same thing. They are in the same family but different grades. Your heating oil is probably grade 5 or 6 which is a thicker almost gell like. Grade 1 and 2 are what is common in vehicles. Grade 3-4 are used in other applications such as locomotives and big diesel type engines in ships and generators. each grade has different sulfer content and designed to run in specific type running conditions.


Todd

[Todd Wilson]

diesel fuel is the same thing as your heating fuel.   It is just a different color.   The additive was added so that if trucker got pulled over the cops would now if they were running heating oil or auto fuel.    heating oil back than was cheaper the the diesel feul. It is a scam.   

heating is refined the same way.   I am plaing on buying diesl fuel fro the pump and putting in my heatin oil tank.   5 gallons at a time.   sloww and steady wins the race.   better than filling up at 3.25 a gallon at the pump it is 2.95

next time ya have your oil burner tank filled, take a look..most heating oil is #2. it is dyed differently than "on road" or "off road"diesel beacuase they are all taxed differently. its all the governments scam.   all these arseholes are spoutin off about lowering gas tax when in reality not taxing gas wouldnt help the econmy as much as lowering or droping the tax on diesel. BUT, just like anything else they would have to find a way to make it up.
       How many here actually use oil for heating anymore?? over the last 15-20 years alot of oil burners in this area have ben taken out and replaced with natural gas.


Diesel fuel and heating oil are not the same thing. They are in the same family but different grades. Your heating oil is probably grade 5 or 6 which is a thicker almost gell like. Grade 1 and 2 are what is common in vehicles. Grade 3-4 are used in other applications such as locomotives and big diesel type engines in ships and generators. each grade has different sulfer content and designed to run in specific type running conditions.


Todd

You guys must have a different heating oil setup then I have seen.   The heating oil we have around here for certain things is a thick oil like substance. Which is a grade 5 or 6. We dont have heating oil to the houses around here anymore. I dont know as to if they ever had. Lots of older houses have doors for coal in the lower foundations. We heat with natural gas or electric around here. Out in the country they use propane.


Todd

[Todd Wilson]

Interesting info Todd, I looked at a fuel ticket last week and CP was paying 2.24/gallon in Albany. I guess when you buy that much fuel they better give you some kind of break.

Yeah it was interesting. I figured the railroad here was a grand slam for making money. They come out and fill the locomotives when ever they want. I figured what ever the going rate for off road fuels was is what they charged the railroad. Not the case.  I also found out at one time my railroad owned a refinery not to far from my house It has a direct pipe line up into Nebraska to the big rail yard there and they piped diesel fuel right to the yard.


Todd

[derailed]

You guys must have a different heating oil setup then I have seen.     The heating oil we have around here for certain things is a thick oil like substance. Which is a grade 5 or 6. We dont have heating oil to the houses around here anymore. I dont know as to if they ever had. Lots of older houses have doors for coal in the lower foundations. We heat with natural gas or electric around here. Out in the country they use propane.


Todd

Alot of Hospitals and schools etc. in my area still heat with #4 or #6 heating oil which is pretty close to crude oil. I use to deliver it when i was driving a truck. Great thing about the #6 was that if you spilled a little bit of it on a dirt surface in the winter you just waited awhile until it cooled off and you could roll the mess up like a carpet. But most if not all of the oil heated homes are heated with #2, off road diesel

[TeeWJay426]

Anyone see the announcement from ExxonMobil that they made $10BILLION in PROFIT last quarter?? (Yeah, I said 10 Billion). Anyone still naive enough to think that the hurricanes weren't just an excuse to F*&$ the American public once more?

[MichaelRW]

Anyone see the announcement from ExxonMobil that they made $10BILLION in PROFIT last quarter?? (Yeah, I said 10 Billion). Anyone still naive enough to think that the hurricanes weren't just an excuse to F*&$ the American public once more?

I heard on the news last night that this quarterly profit was the highest of any American company ever. I'm all for free enterprise but this level of profit is obscene. Yes, I think we're being ripped off. Isn't that considered profiteering and isn't that illegal?

[MichaelRW]

However......if the oil companies were to put a good chunk of that profit back into new oil sources to become less dependent on the middle east I would support it.

[RECHRGD]

I heard on the radio the other day that even with the obscene profits, The Feds want to GIVE the oil companies our tax dollars to build more refineries.  Go figure!!!!!!!!!!!!!   Bob

[Charger_Fan]

Anyone see the announcement from ExxonMobil that they made $10BILLION in PROFIT last quarter?? (Yeah, I said 10 Billion).

Yep.
Here's the one I read; http://apnews.myway.com/article/20051027/D8DGL2502.html

[Todd Wilson]

However......if the oil companies were to put a good chunk of that profit back into new oil sources to become less dependent on the middle east I would support it.

The oil companies are not concerned with becoming less dependant on middle east oil. They will get oil from where ever and resell it for stupid profits.


Todd

[Silver R/T]

I heard on the radio the other day that even with the obscene profits, The Feds want to GIVE the oil companies our tax dollars to build more refineries. Go figure!!!!!!!!!!!!! Bob

yes, so they can make more money and rip us off

[2fast4u]

  as of last night it dropped to $2.18 finally from $2.26....sure would be nice to see it go under 2 dollars and stay below that!  sheeesh!!

[Headrope]

All this fuel price flunctuation is supposedly because of the increased price of oil per barrel, right? Then why does a quart of oil cost the same this year as last? That's what has me stumped.

As for the price of gas: It's going down, but watch yourself at the pump if paying with a debit card. You might find what I've found here - that the pump no longer shuts off at $50. Now that fuel is getting affordable the pumps will go to $75 before they shut off.

[Troy]

As for the price of gas: It's going down, but watch yourself at the pump if paying with a debit card. You might find what I've found here - that the pump no longer shuts off at $50. Now that fuel is getting affordable the pumps will go to $75 before they shut off.

I was reading about that the other day and it appears that the limit is set by the bank/lending institution - not the retailer. I think it just took them a long time to raise the limit. Weird.

Troy

[RD]

i dont know what to think of this stuff anymore.  I cannot control it, so I am done bitching about it.  I am not giving up my opinions on it, but seriously it seems that all our political action to stave off this "raping" of the public consists of bitching about it on this forum.  Personally, all it does is just piss me off (reading about the oil companies and their extreme profits), but yet I still do not go to my congressman, senator, governor, president, what have you.

I am not gettin on you all that like to discuss it, but seriously, does it really help us?  Are we truly venting or justing getting more worked up over a situation that is totally out of our control due to political alliances during this current administration (or the next for that matter)?

I am not asking that we all forget it, I guess I am just saying that if we were to discuss it here, do you not think it would be better if we discussed to the people that are paid to listen to us?  It is easy to type words up here (look at this post for instance), but it requires the same amount of time to write a letter to your elected representative.  Maybe we should focus the time from these threads and put it to use by contacting our elected politicians.

Food for thought I guess.


OH, and one last thing....  I have been meaning to get this off my chest for a long time.  For all those who say that gas is relatively cheap compared to a gallon of milk or a gallon of orange juice, I say this.  I do not drink 75-80 gallons of milk or orange juice every two weeks.

[Duey]

RaceDodge, whatever you do, try to ignore the fact that Exxon's 3rd Quarter profit of $10,000,000,000 was more than the entire GDP of either Kuwait or the United Arab Emirates! 

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20051027/D8DGL2502.html

[RD]

RaceDodge, whatever you do, try to ignore the fact that Exxon's 3rd Quarter profit of $10,000,000,000 was more than the entire GDP of either Kuwait or the United Arab Emirates!  

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20051027/D8DGL2502.html

dude, i take that as sarcasm, but anyways I think you misunderstood me.  I do not like the gas prices, I do not like the oil companies making so much damn money, but what can I do about it?

My point was that bitching about it on this forum is not going to change anything.  WE should be bitching about it to our elected representatives and pressure them about it.  i.e. "do something about it, or find a new job."

That was my point. Sorry if I may have been confusing.

[Duey]

RaceDodge, whatever you do, try to ignore the fact that Exxon's 3rd Quarter profit of $10,000,000,000 was more than the entire GDP of either Kuwait or the United Arab Emirates! 

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20051027/D8DGL2502.html

dude, i take that as sarcasm, but anyways I think you misunderstood me.  I do not like the gas prices, I do not like the oil companies making so much damn money, but what can I do about it?

My point was that bitching about it on this forum is not going to change anything.  WE should be bitching about it to our elected representatives and pressure them about it.  i.e. "do something about it, or find a new job."

That was my point. Sorry if I may have been confusing.

Not sarcasm to you, RD...indirectly back at the @#$#%@# oil companies, Exxon in particular.  I'm with you.  Unfortunately, I don't think the Government gives a rat -- they make tax money off the proceeds so it's not like they want to reduce their tax income either.  The only way I figure (not that it hasn't been tried before) is to specifically target on petroleum company only...just a few percentages of market lost to another producer = $100M's.  Don't ever thik it'll happen though...great ideas but coordinating such an action would be next to impossible...

Cheers,
Duey

[Silver R/T]

well theres stations that do not make as much money Ive heard. Big companies like chevron, shell and of course exxon are the ones that make most profit. So I try to avoid fueling at their stations

[RD]

well theres stations that do not make as much money Ive heard. Big companies like chevron, shell and of course exxon are the ones that make most profit. So I try to avoid fueling at their stations

i think that is a urban legend.  If I am not mistaken, Troy debunked that theory in a past thread which stated (i paraphrase) that the petroleum companies buy from one another just as much as they produce their in order to maintain a valid (oxymoron) profit margin.

[Silver R/T]

wonder how low prices will drop. would be nice if they drop below 1.70

[Troy]

well theres stations that do not make as much money Ive heard. Big companies like chevron, shell and of course exxon are the ones that make most profit. So I try to avoid fueling at their stations

i think that is a urban legend. If I am not mistaken, Troy debunked that theory in a past thread which stated (i paraphrase) that the petroleum companies buy from one another just as much as they produce their in order to maintain a valid (oxymoron) profit margin.

It's actually something less sinister than that. Stations themselves will buy from the closest supplier because it's cheaper. It doesn't really matter what the name on the sign is. Oil companies will also buy surplus from each other because it's sometimes cheaper to buy oil/gas that's already in tanks than it is to produce their own. As long as the demand is there then companies will find ways to fulfil the needs of consumers.

Even though demand is dropping because of the seasonal change, the problem still partially involves refining capacity.
The recovery of storm-battered refineries in the Gulf of Mexico continues. The U.S. Minerals Management Service said Thursday the gulf's shut-in oil production was about 1 million barrels of oil per day, the equivalent to 68.15% of the gulf's daily oil production. The shut-in gas production was 5.559 billion cubic feet per day, the equivalent to 55.59% of the gulf's daily gas production.
http://www.thestreet.com/_googlen/markets/roblenihan/10249870.html?cm_ven=GOOGLEN&cm_cat=FREE&cm_ite=NA

When you guys say "profit" I believe you are referring to the actual dollar amount (a mistake) as opposed to profit margin or as a percentage in comparison to previous years or quarters. It may help to know a little about how numbers are reported and what they mean.

For example:
Royal Dutch Shell (RDS-A:NYSE) posted third quarter earnings of $9.39 billion, or $1.35 a share, up 67% from last year's $5.62 billion, or 80 cents a share. The latest period included a gain of $1.77 billion related to the sale of a Dutch pipeline and certain gas contracts. Shell's top line rose 8% to $77.44 billion.

Exxon (XOM:NYSE) posted third-quarter net income of $9.92 billion, or $1.58 a share, up from $5.68 billion, or 88 cents a share, a year ago. Results included a $1.62 billion gain from a business realignment.

Notice that one says "earnings" and the other says "net income". Very important distinction as Exxon's projected earnings were really $8.3 billion (only the estimates are out at this time). They also sold $.8 billion in assets - meaning that money wasn't made off the poor schmucks at the pump. As I stated the last time, the company had to sell $88 billion in goods to make $7 billion in earnings which is only 8.5% (hardly a home run in the stock market). The numbers are probably close to that this time as well.

I'm sure I just wasted a whole bunch of my time...

Troy

[Duey]

Troy, my economics handbook from college notes that profit/net income can be reported either in absolte terms ($) or in relative terms (% - compared to stated reference...previous qtr, last fiscal year, etc...)  I referred to profit, not earnings (revenue).  I'm not sure I get your point....rounding Exxon's 3rd qtr profit (net earnings) from $9.92B up to $10B is exactly what I referred to. 

Factually, Exxon's revenues (earnings) for Q3 exceeded $100B, upon which the $10B profit was made.  A 10% profit margin is pretty nice these days (although admitedly not as profitable as some other economic activities out there.) 

My focus was on the fact that Exxon's profits for a single quater alone exceeded the entire annual Gross Domestic Product (GDP) of either Kuwait or the U.A.E., both huge oil producing nations. 

What would be interesting to see would be a comparison as to how much profit an oil producing nation like Kuwait, UAE or Saudi Arabia makes per gallon and how much profit large petro companies make per gallon.  I think that some folks believe the OPEC folks are making money hand over fist while the petro companies just tack a bit of profit onto the petroleum they refine and distribute...

Cheers,
Duey

[Troy]

I wasn't directly responding to you but ok. I guess I should have been clearer but all these threads run together after a while so I'm sure I already covered it. My point is that certain people only see the figure $10 billion dollars and freak out. It doesn't matter if it's profit, earnings, income, petty cash or some guy's salary as long as it seems like the evil coporation is trampling on Mr. Average Joe. It also doesn't seem to matter to them if the percentage over time is lower or if it's weak compared to other companies in the industry - only the actual figure. It just seems like a lot of money to some people even if it might only amount to .001% in certain contexts. When I say "earnings", "profit", "sales", "costs", "expenses", etc. they are usually the numbers that I'm reading off the income statements unless I state otherwise. With that being the case, Exxon had $100.7 billion in sales (Total or Gross Revenue) - not earnings (or income or profit).

I'd say that recently anyone with refining capacity should outperform a basic oil producer. The money isn't in the oil itself right now. I seriously doubt if Kuwait tells anyone what it costs them to pump oil out of the ground but if you ask Nacho he'll tell you that he can buy gasoline for roughly $0.27 USD in Venezuela (that's refined so it includes those costs as well). A barrel is equivalent to 35 gallons so at $60 per barrel the "producer" is getting $1.71 per gallon (of crude) from everyone else in the world. Figure that out.

Troy