GM and Chrysler discuss merger

[bull]

Not so fast....

http://money.cnn.com/2008/10/31/news/companies/gm_chrysler/index.htm?postversion=2008103110

Yikes! "Analysts have estimated that the total job loss in a GM-Chrysler merger could be as high as 90,000."

[RallyeMike]

Chrysler execs have run the company into the ground. While GM and Ford have gained on import quality, Mopar has been slipping. The consumers are not going to take it forever  - even the die-hard Mopar fanatics are getting fed up. It's a damn shame.  If they merge with GM, the only thing GM will keep is the Jeep and Minivan. Bye By Mopar 

[Ghoste]

I think bye bye Mopar was always part of Cerberus plan.

[Mike DC]

It sucks but it was coming for a long time.  I've basically thought Mopar was doomed ever since the 'krauts took over.  Ever since then it's mostly been a matter of watching the slow gruesome trainwreck pan out over the last several years.



It's hard to have sympathy though.  Honestly I no longer trust a current Mopar car/truck to work reliably.  Not even if I buy it new myself and do all the maintenance right.

When decent middle-class cars cost 1/3rd the price of a decent middle-class house, they have to work reliably.  You just can't deliver cars that show $1500 electrical problems and $600 toasted brake rotors when the thing is 15,000 miles off the dealership. 

[Ghoste]

Personally, I've had nothing but excellent results with any Mopar I have ever owned.  Problems with a couple of dealerships but the cars and trucks themselves were always great.  The worst vehicles I've ever had was an early 80's Chev and the second worst was a Honda from the same era.  I know thousands and thousands disagree with me but I don't think Chrysler reliability is out of line with any other major manufacturer.  Now public perception, that's another matter.

[runningman]

I was just talking about this yesterday at work.  It amazes that since 99% of us all drive Chrysler vehicles I never hear of that many people having issues and we are pretty hard on our products.  We are still amazed that they have not been able to get better gas mileage but we have been happy with vehicles besides this fact.

[The70RT]

I have had my Dodge truck for almost 4 years. The only problem was a sensor in the trans, that was under warranty. We got an Chevy Uplander a year ago and have had it in for warranty work at least 5 times and still have parts on order to fix some other issues so? and 600 dollar rotors

[RallyeMike]

I bet there is even at least one Yugo owner out there that is satisfied with their pile and wondering why Yugo is extinct. There are thousands of people out there that have had their own personal experiences with owning a newer Mopar, and they also see the company from their own perspective. Add all these personal experiences up and the overall result is that Mopar quality is very low compared to other brands. All you have to do is look at Consumer Reports where the rating system is based on real owners input. It's hard to argue the results of that kind of data.

I actually had hope that the Daimler could inject some new business sense into Chrysler, and I still have hope that by some miracle Chrysler will be saved and turn themselves around like they did in the 80's (wheres the "cross your fingers" emoticon?)

[Troy]

I have to agree. My only experience with newer Mopar vehicles (my 1999 Ram) has been a complete disaster. I ended up with a Chevy Tahoe instead and, so far, I'm incredibly happy (and yes, I've read a lot of bad reviews for the Chevy as well - but nothing like the Ram - so I'm crossing my fingers). I needed a reliable daily driver/tow vehicle and my previous 1984 Suburban rust bucket had more miles with a trailer behind it than the Ram. I spent more on leaks on the Ram than I paid for the Suburban. Other than reliability (perceived or otherwise), I'm just not a fan of the looks of most of the newer Mopars.

Troy

[Magnumcharger]

Dodge Challenger and Many Other Chrysler Models Not Likely To Weather a GM-Chrysler Merger
Date posted: 10-31-2008

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=134969#4


SOUTHFIELD, Michigan — Only the Dodge Ram, some "core" Jeep vehicles and Chrysler's minivans are likely to survive if a pending merger between General Motors and Chrysler happens, according to a new report by Grant Thornton LLP, a tax and advisory group here. Such iconic vehicles as the Dodge Challenger and Charger are notably absent from the list. The Dodge Viper brand is currently up for sale, as Chrysler tries to shop the brand in advance of a merger.

"Chrysler has 26 model offerings, of which Grant Thornton considers only seven to be core and likely to be retained [56 percent of sales]," said the report, which was released on Thursday. "These include the Dodge Ram pickup truck, core Jeep-brand vehicles and the company's minivans."

The report notes that half of Chrysler's 14 existing manufacturing facilities likely would close. "A plant reduction of this magnitude would equate to about 12,000 production jobs lost plus another 12,000 administrative positions," said Grant Thornton.

"Chrysler as we know it will cease to exist very soon," said Kimberly Rodriguez, principal of Grant Thornton's automotive practice. "At this point, there are very few options available to either company." She adds: "If one or the other company were to fail, we would face a much bigger calamity — the collapse of the North American supply base and the potential endangerment of all three Detroit automakers and businesses that depend on them."

Inside Line says: Some storied Chrysler nameplates may be casualties of a merger between Chrysler and General Motors. — Anita Lienert, Correspondent

[Mopar2Ya]

Has anyone ever posted the definition of Cerberus?         
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerberus
http://www.mythicalrealm.com/creatures/cerberus.html

Cerberus  (SUR-buh-rus)

Hades' guard dog, a relative of both the Chimaera and the Hydra. Cerberus was carried up from Hades by Heracles in one his Labors. This was achieved only after a protracted battle in which the hero was mauled by the hound's fangs and menaced by snakes growing from his back and tail. In contrast, Cerberus abandoned his watchdog task and lay down meekly to the strains of Orpheus's lyre when that minstrel journeyed to the Underworld in search of his dead wife Eurydice. The poison used in Medea's attempt to murder Theseus was made from Cerberus's drool.

[Mike DC]

BTW, my $600 quote is not literally for the rotors.  The rotors themselves are probably less than $100. 

But your grandma doesn't fix her brake problems by walking up to the parts counter at the dealership and asking for a set of rotors.  She takes it into a brake shop, waits all afternoon (possibly off work), pays for parts + labor, probably gets the brake pads replaced at the same time, possibly even gets sold an unnecessary alignment or something . . .



And this is precisely the point.  It's precisely why this kind of corner cutting is so infuriating to anyone who is mechanically inclined enough to understand the whole picture. 

When the factory, or the supplier (probably being pressured by the factory) cuts corners, these brake rotors themselves might only be saving $2/car.  But when grandma's brakes wear out early, can she just drive back to the dealership and pay the $2 to get rid of the problem?

[bull]

Dodge Challenger and Many Other Chrysler Models Not Likely To Weather a GM-Chrysler Merger
Date posted: 10-31-2008

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=134969#4


SOUTHFIELD, Michigan — Only the Dodge Ram, some "core" Jeep vehicles and Chrysler's minivans are likely to survive if a pending merger between General Motors and Chrysler happens, according to a new report by Grant Thornton LLP, a tax and advisory group here. Such iconic vehicles as the Dodge Challenger and Charger are notably absent from the list. The Dodge Viper brand is currently up for sale, as Chrysler tries to shop the brand in advance of a merger.

"Chrysler has 26 model offerings, of which Grant Thornton considers only seven to be core and likely to be retained [56 percent of sales]," said the report, which was released on Thursday. "These include the Dodge Ram pickup truck, core Jeep-brand vehicles and the company's minivans."

The report notes that half of Chrysler's 14 existing manufacturing facilities likely would close. "A plant reduction of this magnitude would equate to about 12,000 production jobs lost plus another 12,000 administrative positions," said Grant Thornton.

"Chrysler as we know it will cease to exist very soon," said Kimberly Rodriguez, principal of Grant Thornton's automotive practice. "At this point, there are very few options available to either company." She adds: "If one or the other company were to fail, we would face a much bigger calamity — the collapse of the North American supply base and the potential endangerment of all three Detroit automakers and businesses that depend on them."

Inside Line says: Some storied Chrysler nameplates may be casualties of a merger between Chrysler and General Motors. — Anita Lienert, Correspondent

Maybe I missed it early on in this discussion but is GM going to own the larger share after the merger? If not why aren't we hearing about the demise of the Camaro and 14 other GM models?

[70charginglizard]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081101/ap_on_bi_ge/chrysler_product_strikeout

Chrysler's lackluster products, said Bragman, can be traced to the nine years it was owned by Germany's Daimler, which approved chintzy interiors and cars with more noise and vibration than the competition.

"The truth is Daimler did them no favors," said Jim Hall, managing director of 2953 Analytics of Birmingham, Mich. "They approved products that previous Chrysler management wouldn't have approved if they were completely drunk and beaten crazy."




Why doesn't this statement suprise me?

[Ghoste]

So if grandma owned a different kind of vehicle other than a Chrysler, she wouldn't have to take a day off work to go to a brake shop where they would also sell her pads and an unecessary alignment??

[RallyeMike]

"Chrysler has 26 model offerings, of which Grant Thornton considers only seven to be core and likely to be retained [56 percent of sales]," said the report, which was released on Thursday. "These include the Dodge Ram pickup truck, core Jeep-brand vehicles and the company's minivans."

Gimme a break. GM is going to carry Chevy trucks AND the Ram? Maybe they won't kill the Ram on year one, but the Ram will be as good as dead.
Chrysler's heritage will be reduced to the minivan.

This is not going to a merger. It's going to be more like a liver transplant for GM.

[The70RT]

So if grandma owned a different kind of vehicle other than a Chrysler, she wouldn't have to take a day off work to go to a brake shop where they would also sell her pads and an unecessary alignment??

I know you weren't directing it to me but If any of my grand parents were still alive I would be pissed if they paid 600 for brakes because I would be doing them anyway. 

[Ghoste]

I would be too, I'm still just trying to understand the 600 dollar rotors thing.

[WingCharger]

PLEASE DEAR LORD, SAY IT AINT SO!!!!!! We just got the Challenger, and Ram trucks are the best truck out there (CUMMINS)!!!!!! Please Chrysler dont do it unless they let you keep everything! GM is a freakin huge corporation! They can live without Chrysler, but probably just want Jeep. I agree Rams would be dead in a year or to, and we all would be just like AMC muscle car enthusiasts...


The reason they wouldnt keep the new Charger and Challenger would be because of the new Camaro. Looks like the Chevy guys have beat us...
MoPar would be dead, Challenger and Charger would be dead, Rams would die eventually, Jeep would lose tons of models.... WHAT IS THE UP SIDE?

[Ghoste]

The upside is that shareholders in the Cerberus equity firm get lots and lots of yummy money.

[The70RT]

I guess if it goes GM's way the Challenger will become quite the collectible.

[Mike DC]

 

So if grandma owned a different kind of vehicle other than a Chrysler, she wouldn't have to take a day off work to go to a brake shop where they would also sell her pads and an unecessary alignment??

The point is that if grandma had bought a different model of vehicle, it might not have needed to get brake work done at that time in the first place. 



Look, don't read too much into this.  It's not like I had to replace some rotors and now I want Chrysler to fold over it.  But this just one little example among a lot of other things going on. 

In this particular case, I've listened to too many people complaining about their new Chagnums having trashed rotors inside the first year they own the thing.  And some of the Jeeps & Dodge trucks that I've owned and/or dealt with have also worn the original sets of rotors quite quickly.



For example, I just recently listened to a guy in line at the parts counter of my local Mopar dealership.  (I was there buying my Dakota another blower motor resistor for the second time in the last two years.) 

This guy was trying to figure out what he could do about his new Charger.  He was giving his car its third set of rotors and it had 30,000 miles on it.  I asked him if he'd looked into aftermarket pads & rotors that might run cooler/better. 

He said, "Naw, I'm sick of this.  These dealer techs are trying to blame it on my driving style and saying it's my fault so they're not gonna pay for it.  That's bullshit.  I've driven every other sports car I've ever had the same way I drive this one and none of the others did this crap.  My wife put half the mileage on this Charger and look at this, I'm gonna be right back here in another year from now if I keep this car.  I'm getting a Camaro.  I'm already on the waiting list for the new one."

[Ghoste]

I don't think I'm reading too much into it (I hope not anyway), I'm just trying to point out that the Asian dealerships all seem to have service departments as well and I'm pretty sure all those Civics and Camrys I see waiting in front of them aren't just in for oil changes.  In any case I'm probably wrong and it'll all be fixed soon.  Chrysler is nearly finished and GM won't be far behind.  With any luck Ford will die soon too and then we'll enter a brave new world where we all drive Asian cars that are cheap, reliable, and good on gas and we will never ever hear of anybody's automotive horror stories again. 

[RallyeMike]

The upside is that shareholders in the Cerberus equity firm get lots and lots of yummy money.

Not knowing the details, Cerberus I'm sure is going to take it in the shorts on their "investment" in Chrysler.  There is no upside for anyone but the other automakers.

[bull]

WHAT IS THE UP SIDE?

That we might finally enjoy a similar reproduction part selection as the Chevy guys?

I don't give a rat's a$$ about the current Chrysler and it doesn't give a rat's a$$ about us or its own future. It hasn't been Chrysler since the Germans took over IMO so they can scuttle it if they want as far as I'm concerned. It would be nice if it could be saved and returned to it's former American-owned glory of 40 years ago but I don't think anyone in big business cares about that anymore. There is no brand loyalty in this country anymore it's all "ME" loyalty. As long as the few top layer white collar suits get what they want they are quite comfortable saying to hell with everyone else, their jobs, their pensions, their loyalty, their health care, their ability to take care of their family and the company's legacy. This merger attempt is another dying gasp of a few selfish low-lifes who are trying to milk the economy for their own personal interests before it totally collapses. People can't keep acting like selfish little two-year-olds in this country and expect it to thrive.