Warning if you are using stealth heads.

[frederick]

If you're using the 440source valve springs it doesn't matter which retainer you use as long as it is for valve springs with an outer diameter of 1.550".

Of the 10degree compcam retainers you can use any of the following:
cca-748-16
cca-741-16
cca-746-16
cca-749-16
All of these are for 1.500"-1.550" valve springs.
http://www.compcams.com/technical/Catalogs/106-07/308-309.pdf

The difference between these is the diameter for second or even third spring which you are obviously not using with single 440 source springs.
If you are going to different (dual) springs you need matching retainers, of course.

You have to use matching 10degree locks, preferably of the same manufacturer as the retainers to avoid any mismatching between them.
Of the 10degree compcam items you can use the following:
cca-611-16 With Lash Cap Recess
cca-613-16 Without Recess for Lash Cap
These are both for the 440source  11/32" valve stems.
http://www.compcams.com/technical/Catalogs/106-07/310-311.pdf

Because of the increase in valve spring height and decrease in retainer to rocker clearence I noticed, I might go to cca-630-16.
They have a -0.050 install  height.
But I will first check the valve pressure and clearence exactly, hopefully this weekend.

Frederick

ps The reason I went for the CCA-748-16 retainers is that the diameter for the second valve is the smallest of the range, and so possibly the lightest.

[my73charger]

I pulled my valve covers and rocker assemblies off last night.  The only thing I noticed is that one of the retainers is slightly shiney along the very edge where it looks to have rubbed very slightly on that rocker arm.  When I look at the rocker arm itself you really couldn't see much of a rub mark.  Other than that, everything looked really good.  I am going to replace the retainers and locks anyway but now I am rethinking the 7* versus 10* after reading the remarks above.  Is this going to change any clearances or tolerances if I go to a 10* set?  Does anyone know if these heads have a 2 groove valve stem?  I plan on going with the steel Comp goodies but given that I only race the car once or twice a year I am not sure how to proceed.  Oh yeah, my cam is the Comp cam - Duration 292/292, Lift .501/.501.

[frederick]

The 440source heads come with valves that have a single groove valve stem.
http://www.440source.com/heads.htm

[my73charger]

So will changing to the 10* comp retainers and locks require anything further on these heads?

[Musicman]

There is a thread over at Moparts concerning this topic, in which Brandon pretty much tells it like it is.


http://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=4752924&page=0&fpart=1&vc=1

[Steve P.]

Though I can't stand the bickering over there, I have to say that it was a good read. Everyone has an opinion. I have never seen one of their heads, but I did sleep at a Holiday Inn once and I also have a bit of experience with building motors and DEALER and my own shops...

Brandon made a big point about CHECKING THESE PARTS and MEASURING EVERYTHING.  We have many very experienced engine builders and machinists here on this site that will tell you EXACTLY this. I will take it a step further and tell you that I worked for a dealer for a short period of time. (Something I am not proud of). I cannot tell you how often I had BAD PARTS from OUR factories. One of the big ones I remember was a large run of bad injector pumps on the diesels. Porous wheels on Corvette's and Oldsmobile's. Split/cracked AC lines both in the cars and new in the bags.   A huge run of bad fuel pumps in S-10 pick ups.   TONS of leaky door seals on just about every model.   WOW, I was only going to give one example!!

My point is simple. Nothing is perfect. Especially when it is being mass produced.. Anyone ever heard of CORE SHIFT?? The fact is that quality control everywhere is in a slump.

It sucks that anyone had trouble with these heads or any other parts. Truly. I am not standing up so much for 440 Source as I am trying to make people think twice before they skip a step over a few bucks or time to read on how to check things out..  Sometimes we can't check something out on our own. That's when you take it to your machine shop. We can't own every tool or have the time to read everything out there..  Hell, I haven't seen my car in months!!  I am just saying that you can have trouble with anything and the more of each thing that is made the more you are going to hear about problems..

I just had to buy YET ANOTHER coffee maker.  Damned crappy switch.......

[ky509]

I have a S Bee I`m restoring and will be building a 440 for it. After deciding on how I was going to use it and how I wanted to build it, a set of aluminum heads were definitely going to be part of the make up. I had never heard of 440 source until that time, I guess about a year and a half ago and about the time was when they put out their first run of alum. heads. I also want to mention, I`m an old hot rodder and engine builder from way back, but, I have been out of the performance end of it for a little over 20 years, so I`m also doing some catch up on all the new technology, parts and suppliers on the market.
Any how, I start researching all the different manufacturers of mopar aluminum heads that I think are within my price range. I come up with the following possibilities. Eddys- Pro Comp- indys or 440 source. I was very interested in finding out what country their stuff was manufactured in. But, while I was tracking down country's of origin I start coming across forums where they are discussing all the different heads and I start finding some disturbing entries that people were leaving about quality problems they were having and especially about the stealth heads. Mind you, I had already priced the 4 contenders heads and 440 source had their competition  blown away on pricing. But I understand any after market part must be checked for compatibility and quality and some if not all may need some tweeking.  But how much tweeking does one want to get into? I found one forum that had photos of the stealth heads showing bad retainers and or split locks, they also had a photo of a stealth head whereas the head gasket was protruding into the combustion chamber. The retainers and locks I could live with, but the head gasket problem concerned me. Then I started thinking that if 440 source were selling heads with all these obvious problems, had they checked their heads for thickness consistency's and porosity of the aluminum being used? So I called um up to ask the questions. Well its been a few months since I called them and do not recall exactly how the conversation went, But, I do recall having the feeling that I was getting a little bit of a snow job. I can`t say the person I was talking to was being dishonest but it was like they were not telling me every thing they did know about the problems they were having with the heads. But, I also know at that time 440 source was being hammered by some people on a couple of the web sites, and by the type of technical questions I was asking, the person may have thought I was trying to set them up or something and then use it to slam them on one of those sites. Well I had no intention's of doing that nor would I ever do it to any one unless they shafted me first. I really felt they were having a bunch of problems with those heads, but Like any business they were working on the problems as best they could. So I made the decision at that time that seeing as how I was in no hurry I would wait for a while and give them a chance to perfect the product.

I still have not purchased anyones heads as of yet. In fact I still have a couple months before I actually have to have my engine done. SO, I have been waiting for 440 source to get their heads straightened out. I would love to buy an American made set of heads, but not for the difference of 500.00 and still have to go through then just like I`ll have to go through  the stealth heads. I have spent a lot of time price shopping mopar parts on the web and I tell you this, 440 source should be commended for their efforts in producing affordable merchandise for our mopars. I have felt for years that the some of the suppliers have been laying us in the weeds with their prices and when you find some one working as hard as 440 source is working to hold our costs down, then I want to support them if I can. Don`t get me wrong, I admire Vic Edelbrock as well for building his stuff in America, but, for me to buy the Eddy's for the extra $$$ they will cost me VIC would have to guarantee me that the Eddy's are bolt on`s out of the box and I need not spend another $ on um or have to worry about looking for quality problems, which I know will never happen.


PS

If any one from procomp tells you their heads are out of Australia, say yes I know they do leave one of the docks in Australia, but aren't`t they actually manufactured in INDIA. I have had two people tell me they were from Australia and two tell me they were from India.  My opinion is they are being manufactured in India, but pass through a port in Australia in route to the USA, so some of the suppliers figure Australia sounds better than India and they are still skirting on the truth. I ask one fellow that said Australia to check it out because I heard India, and he said he would and would get back with me, I have not heard from him,lol.

[john108]

ky509 ---  I have been buying parts slowly for the last 5+ months for my 440.  I constantly check local adds and boards.  I have been looking for heads and finally found the 60929 e-heads, brand spankin new.  Someone who bought them and had no more use for them.  You may find the same thing near you.  Watching, waiting, and driving 30 miles saved me $400.

[Silver R/T]

this is kinda off-topic but has anyone do a dyno with these heads just to see how much power you get with them straight out of box?

[RD]

There is a thread over at Moparts concerning this topic, in which Brandon pretty much tells it like it is.


http://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=4752924&page=0&fpart=1&vc=1

yeah i really enjoyed the part where he tells his customers like it is by calling them dumb:

In plain english, this means "If you're dumb enough to slap a bunch of parts together in a performance engine without checking anything, don't expect us to bail you out once it turns into a grenade."

especially since his website says this:

Clearanced for large diameter valve springs, our Stealth heads use factory type rocker arms and stock diameter shafts, so no special "high-dollar" offset rockers are required. Any rockers that work on a stock Mopar head will work on our heads. This includes roller rockers, or even stock type stamped steel rockers...

berate the people that pay you 900 dollars and help make your lifestyle what it is... real classy.  You can talk bad all you want where they can't hear you.. fine.. but in a forum where thousands of people read such threads.. especially those that bought products from him... not smart in my book.

You know.. he is calling all those people who bought products from him in the past who bolted stuff right on DUMB too.. even though they may not have problems with his products.  So, he is just not calling the people who have had problems dumb.. he is calling all of them dumb.

think about it?

[Steve P.]

I don't exactly agree. Any and all high performance and aftermarket parts must be checked. As I said above, I came across MANY bad parts directly from the BIG THREE that were supposed to be factory replacement that had issues..  I think more of what you are reading is a company that is tired of being bashed for trying to do good..

I have heard the INDY stories from hell as well.. Is it different for them because they are INDY?? The Indy COMPLETE motor I am referring to was in the tens of thousands and is owned by a member here...

How about a ARRUZZA HEMI??

Or the POS Eddy carbs?? 

Or the Eddy heads with tight guides??

Here is a company selling a product that everyone building an can save a bunch of money and keep straight plugs and the look of an iron head. YES. Some problems have come up as do with 99% of new products. Could all of this been handled differently, MAYBE,, SURE.. Can these heads work for a huge amount of us YES...

Mally points out the troubles with these heads. Many including Firefighter have gone over and over this. I would be pissed if I had these troubles too. I would be more pissed at ME for not double checking everything.....

My 

[FJ571440B]

A bit deep,but necessary, I thought about it,and its good logic.    Makes perfect sense!

[FJ571440B]

Steve P's logic makes just as much sense though.....,if you think about it.

[dstryr]

So retainers (maybe)should be replaced, guides need checked, and gaskets overhang.   First 2 are easy fixes.

How much overhang into the chamber is too much?  Any amount?  If a gasket does overhang in the chamber say 1/32" but not the cylinder bore is that still going to cause problems? 

[Steve P.]

They sell a ROL head gasket that is perfect for it..

[RD]

I don't exactly agree. Any and all high performance and aftermarket parts must be checked. As I said above, I came across MANY bad parts directly from the BIG THREE that were supposed to be factory replacement that had issues..  I think more of what you are reading is a company that is tired of being bashed for trying to do good..

I have heard the INDY stories from hell as well.. Is it different for them because they are INDY?? The Indy COMPLETE motor I am referring to was in the tens of thousands and is owned by a member here...

How about a ARRUZZA HEMI??

Or the POS Eddy carbs?? 

Or the Eddy heads with tight guides??

Here is a company selling a product that everyone building an can save a bunch of money and keep straight plugs and the look of an iron head. YES. Some problems have come up as do with 99% of new products. Could all of this been handled differently, MAYBE,, SURE.. Can these heads work for a huge amount of us YES...

Mally points out the troubles with these heads. Many including Firefighter have gone over and over this. I would be pissed if I had these troubles too. I would be more pissed at ME for not double checking everything.....

My 

i am not differentiating between any of the aluminum head producers.. i am merely pointing out the fact that the owner of this business called his customers dumb, in a public forum, where thousands could read.  If anything that was dumb.

i am only focusing on this issue not because it has affected me personally, i dont have a set of heads from 440source, but a friend of mine does (see other thread).  i am not saying the heads are crap and they cannot perform; i am not saying that 440source sells terrible equipment; i am not dogging on 440source because they filled a need in a market that is much needed; i am not berating 440source for doing what they do commercially by providing products for a specific enthusiast...

I am stating that if you advertise something which allows others to consider the product ready available and a bolt-on and go part (for a non-performance build) and the consumer does as such... and then you call that same consumer DUMB (the same consumer who spent close $1000 for heads and shipping)... then that is just screwed up in my eyes.  Not just that.. every customer who has bought products and just bolted them on from the company.

Granted, my friend should have checked those clearances, but even if he did and they spec'd good, the locks had an issue where the likelihood of this happening was great.  Then add onto the fact that such a thing is not expected, my question is this:  would you have known they were going to fail? 

No one would have... so to leave a company blameless for something they knew about, but expected the consumer to contact them about, even though the consumer didnt know the issue existed until after the damage has been caused is a bunch of horseshit imo.  I have seen toys go on recall for lesser things.

Just because 440source does a great job of filling a niche in the market, does not leave them any less accountable for their products.  I would say the same for all the manufacturers of automotive products (or any product for that matter).

I think this glorification of a company for their lower prices has caused rose-colored glasses to fall upon certain members of this board.  If this happened to you.. I wonder if you all would be singing the same tune?  Even if you did check the "clearances" and they proved to be in good shape. 

My friend had no issues and most of his clearances on his valvetrain were in great shape.. it was just 2 of them that caused his catastrophic failure (and a couple more that were questionable).  If that is due to bad locks, and the company knew about it...then they are responsible for rectifying the situation.

Like telling bayer that because their aspirin was laced with cyanide when i took it, its not their fault.. yeah the probability of me having catastrophic failure was great... and they knew about.. but it was still my responsibility because I am the consumer.  Should I have still contacted them after the fact, or would it have been the ethical thing to do to contact each consumer who may have purchased the product in some fashion?

Sorry.. but that argument is BS and so are some of the ones I am reading.

Anyway, I am done with this topic, because obviously.. all of those who have put engines together have always done everything by the book and have never forgot any step along the way.  And because we live in a perfect world where we know everything and those that do not follow by disclosures are "DUMB" then I guess this is a moot point.  Let alone, should we dare to fathom this concept, the company who produces certain products should actually be held accountable for their products in success and failure NO MATTER HOW MUCH THE DAMN THING COSTS.

I am not saying you all do, but it seems like some people have their heads up brandon's ass imo.  I just wonder if his parts are covered by a disclosure statement too?


*edit*
and on that i sign of from this topic

[dstryr]

Thanks, Steve

The shop doing the porting and bowl blending says the ROL gasket overhangs on a couple of chambers.    440Source says they don't overhang and the shop says they do.  Ken @ 440Source says they have not changed the chamber casting and they've never had an overhang problem with the ROLs.  The shop has a great reputation but they're 70 miles away so I can't just run over and have a look and they aren't trying to sell me anything.  They just want to get the heads done and shipped back..  I'll guess I'll let Ken explain it to the shop.   

[firefighter3931]

If a gasket does overhang in the chamber say 1/32" but not the cylinder bore is that still going to cause problems? 

I would say no.....1/32 of the fire ring is not a huge amount or enough to be concerned about on a mild pump gas type build. On a high compression 13:1 race engine my opinion might be a little different. 



Ron

[Steve P.]

RD, I do not disagree with most of what you have said. As I said before thing could have been handled differently. I have no dog in this fight. Matter of fact I have been on the phone with 440 Source myself on a few occasions about problems.. 

All I am trying to make everyone understand is that I DON'T CARE if they say it is READY TO RUN..  I would never just run a carb right out of the box. I would make certain checks before ever bolting it on. Then once it passes my inspection I will run it and put it through the paces.

Of course it is not a perfect World and we should not expect it to be. I guess maybe I am just cynical with these things as I have seen more of it than I care to and just expect problems...

My point to this is that we CHECK everything before having problems. We know that problems can and do exist.  Mally brought this to the surface to save the next guy. He has not had very good luck with his 440 Source products and I would not blame him for never using their stuff again. This happens with EVERY company out there.  Did everyone stop buying gas and oil from MOBILE after the MOBILE GRAPHITE problems. That lunched thousands of motors and they didn't replace any motors until GM got into it with the Corvette's.  It sucks, but in most cases we are the long run testers.

In the North they use salt on the roads. It eats steal. Everyone knows it but it is an acceptable thing to everyone. Why isn't it acceptable that we should check parts as we are building our engines? Have you ever noticed how bad the core shift is in some intake manifolds?? Yet most won't even lay a gasket in place to see what is what. I saw an Edelbrock intake for an Oldsmobile that could not seal between runners at the head. I laid the gasket on it before hand wondering if the gasket was going to be enough to take the place of some pretty bad porosity. When I looked at the same runners at the back of the manifold for the opposite head I nearly shit. Night and day..

[Musicman]

OH NO... say it isn't so... problems with Eddy Heads... this just couldn't be true. Core shift, Valves, Locks and Keepers, Customer Service...

http://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=4789889&an=0&page=0&gonew=1#UNREAD

[AKcharger]

I like my stealth heads 

[Mfr426]

Well folks, I had to share the potential dropped valve issue that I just discovered with my Stealth Heads. After about 500 miles and preparing the car for the winter, I took Ron's suggestion and pulled the valve covers. I wanted to see if I had any issues with the retainers allowing the valves to slip potentially causing some serious engine damage.

Sadly I do have a problem with the #6 exhaust valve (correct me if that number is not right). The valve is clearly much lower than all of the other valves in either head. So, I am now ordering the new Comp Comp retainers, locks and the Comp Cam valve spring compressor tool that allows for valve spring removal with the heads on the motor. This "little" issue will end up costing me about $200 plus my time.

The moral of the story, I'd spend the $80-90 and put on the better keepers and retainers before you bolt on the heads. I think I just avoided a potentially expensive engine failure. Thanks Ron for the (continued) good suggestions.

Mike R in Reading PA
505 Stroker

[firefighter3931]

Mike, thanks for posting that pic. 

It looks like #6 exhaust valve is starting to pull through the retainer. 

Good catch ! 



Ron

[mally69]

Great pic bud, yea mine are all different hieghts. I just haven't tore it down yet.

[Mfr426]

I'm not eager to buy that slick Comp Cam tool to take off the springs without removing the head but hey...it IS a new tool!!!!