paint bare metal

[chargerscott]

i'm going to have my 73 Charger blasted, do you know what to do next? primer? what kind? please help

[The70RT]

Sealer or epoxy primer

[knitz01]

Sorry to jump in but do you need to use a eching primer first?

[chargerscott]

so from bare metal use self etching primer. can i use bondo over the self etching primer or do i sand it down before bondo? when i put bondo on does i cover the bondo with epoxy primer?

[69*F5*SE]

Yes, make sure you have your ducks all in a row before you get anything blasted. There's more than one way to skin a cat. Some folks have different opinions on what goes on first after blasting.  Do you have a body guy that you're working with?  It would be a good thing. He should know what to do after blasting. Yes, an etch primer is a good choice after blasting.  Epoxy can be applied over the etch.  Some people apply body filler (bondo) over properly prepared epoxy primer and there are those that prefer applying it over bare metal.  Just make sure you get you're plan in order before you have anything blasted.  Things need to happen in order within a certain amount of time. Hope this helps.

[BlueSS454]

I don't use etching primer...it's outdated technology and pretty unnecessary on bare metal.  Once the car is sandblasted, bring it back into the shop and blow it out for aabout an hour, then some more.  Once done, take a DA to the metal with some 80 grit just to clean it up a little, then blow it off again.  Whatever you do, DON'T TOUCH the metal with your hands, oil will get on it and cause adhesion problems.  Mix up some GOOD epoxy primer and lay a coat down.  I like to use the DuPont Epoxy.  I think the # is 2430.  after it cures up, start doing your metal replacement or bodywork.
Another thing....you can do your filler work right over top the epoxy, it won't hurt anything.  Also, get some decent filler, not that el cheapo Bondo brand garbage that Pep Boys sells.  I recommend Evercoat Rage Gold.  The stuff spreads nice and is very easy to work with.

[chargerscott]

thanks for all your help

[hemi-hampton]

I like to use a Wash Primer then the epoxy Primer. LEON.

[Todd Wilson]

What does the "wash primer" do exactly? Never heard of that type of primer.

Todd

[tan top]

wash primer is an  etch primer ....... depending what type ... you can either rag it on ( wipe it on with a cloth )  or spray it  

bare metal needs wash/etch primer   ,   

[mopar0166]

Ive been doing some of the same and have been straigtening dents out but i know I will soon be apapproaching this step sooner then later.  for the most part the paint on the car is "ok"  Im looking to just sand off the top layer, apply a good primer, fair out imperfections with mud.   Should i then give it another coat of epoxyprimer?  then paint?     :shruggy

[375instroke]

Always read the tech sheets.  They're online.  Some things you learn when you read them:  Wash/etch primers are for speed.  PPG makes a DX1791 Self Etching Wash Primer that can be topcoated after 30 minutes, but must be before 24 hours.  DPX170 Wash Primer and DPX171 Non–Chrome Self Etching Primer must also be topcoated within 24 hours, but DP Epoxy Primer is not compatible with it.  How would you know this without reading the sheets?  A better way is to use metal pretreatments, like DX579 Metal Cleaner followed by DX520 Metal Conditioner, and then DP Epoxy Primer.  Apply Evercoat filler over that.  One final thing.  The wash primers and metal treatments are not for use on media blasted steel.  I've never blasted an entire car, so it's not a problem for me, but what does one do if that's what they are working on?

[hemi-hampton]

375instroke, The DX1791 self etching wash primer is what I use under my DP epoxy primer. I do not use the DPX 170. I go this route, to make along story short is because I feel the Chemicals/additive/ingredients of the Wash Primer is much better & more suitable for Bare metal then just DP epoxy Primer. But I do not like the thin Transparancy of the wash primer so add the extra protection of the Epoxy Primer plus this makes it easier to scuff or sand if sits for long periods. This is just my opinion but never had a Problem. I dont know anybody else that does it this exact way but most just go the fastest cheapest easiest way anyways. In most body shops time is money & the faster, cheaper you are the better you are. I do slow quality work so all the Production crank them out shops do not like my methods. LEON.

P.S. Yes, I have most of the Tech sheets & read them.

[hemi-hampton]

Heres that 67 Coronet R/T Convertible a few weeks back, have engine compartment primed now & hood. LEON.

[The70RT]

Wow. Nice job Leon.  I remember the rust bucket pics. It sure has came a long way. I hate to know how many hours is in it already.

[Charger-Bodie]

I like both products, But for differant areas of the car and not together. 

[375instroke]

375instroke, The DX1791 self etching wash primer is what I use under my DP epoxy primer. I do not use the DPX 170. I go this route, to make along story short is because I feel the Chemicals/additive/ingredients of the Wash Primer is much better & more suitable for Bare metal then just DP epoxy Primer. But I do not like the thin Transparancy of the wash primer so add the extra protection of the Epoxy Primer plus this makes it easier to scuff or sand if sits for long periods. This is just my opinion but never had a Problem. I dont know anybody else that does it this exact way but most just go the fastest cheapest easiest way anyways. In most body shops time is money & the faster, cheaper you are the better you are. I do slow quality work so all the Production crank them out shops do not like my methods. LEON.

P.S. Yes, I have most of the Tech sheets & read them.

The DP is compatible with the DX1791, just not with the DPX170, if there was any confusion.  I agree that the way you do it, the DP over DX1791 is how it could be done.  I also think that that is the fast way.  Just shoot one, then the other.  The tech sheets say the wash primers are for high productivity.  The metal cleaner, then conditioner, takes more steps, labor, and time, but it may be better.  How much better?  Who knows.  Is one going to last 100 years and the other 120?  Are any of these cars going to see any where near the kind of abuse from the elements that they've seen in the previous 40 years?

I'm still wondering on the don't use on media blasted metal statements for the wash primers and metal conditioners.

[chargerscott]

how do you know whats compatible? i called finish master and they sent me X615s-4 self etch primer , I had DP90LF will this work?

[hemi-hampton]

In my opinion from my Research Metal Conditionerers are for when you chemically strip a panel, like with aircraft stripper or any chemical stripper or dipped in a tank of stripper. Then your left with smooth shiny clean metel. This can be etched with a metal conditioner, If this is done then you DO NOT use a self Etching Primer. It's one or the other, Never both. The 70 RT, Heres what it looks like now.LEON.

[hemi-hampton]

Chargerscott, Who makes the x615s-4 primer? Refresh my memmory.   Is it Dupont.  LEON.

[chargerscott]

Dupont  variprime is on the can.

[69*F5*SE]

Yep, Dupont Variprime is an etch primer. Yellowish in color.

[hemi-hampton]

I asked the paint rep for Dupont Tech sheets & I got a hard time, I have no problem getting any or all sheets needed for PPG but Dupont sucks when it comes to this. We spend $1,000's on dupont paint every month but he sez he can not supply me with all the sheets. I dont like dupont anymore & prefer PPG, I got the Variprime at work & still order the PPG anyways. If you want to know whats compatible with your variprime ask you paint dealer to supply you with a tech sheet to read. LEON.

[375instroke]

Follow this link to Dupont Product Information, Technical Data Sheets, and Safety Data Sheets

You can get the same for PPG Deltron here: Deltron Product Listings

How do you know what products are compatible?  You need to stay with one system.  You can't mix products from different manufactures and expect success.  They have millions of dollars into research and testing done for you.  Why would you want to experiment for yourself?  By reading Dupont and PPG tech sheets, one can see that two etch primers are not compatible with epoxy primer topcoats, but one is.  The Dupont tech sheet for 820R Wash Primer Filler says "Do not use polyester putty or epoxy primer surfacer over 832R.  Hardening and adhesion of polyester and epoxy products will be affected."  PPG DPX170/171 Self Etch Wash Primer says "Do not apply DP Epoxy Primer over DPX170/ 171."  PPG DX1791 Self Etching Wash Primer lists DP Epoxy Primer as a compatible topcoat. 

[chargerscott]

i just talk to the finishmaster tech and he said the Dupont self etching primer i bought will work with the DP90 as long as i let it dry for atleast 1 hour. i told him i would let dry overnight and apply he said i will have no issues. what do you think?

[Charger-Bodie]

The promlem with self etch and epoxy over it is that some poly surfacers and primer surfacers with react with it and lift.

IMO self etch is a great product for something that needs zero to minimal work, but isnt going to be topcoated for a while.

Epoxy directly over the metal works great cause it seals weld from patch work etc. and you can do filler work right over it.

[chargerscott]

so i can epoxy bare metal and have no problems?

i'm going to have my Charger soda blasted, then blow it for 3.5 hours, and then blow it somemore, then sand with 80 grit all over, then clean with thinner and the epoxy primmer and the do some bodywork and paint lime green.

[Charger-Bodie]

so i can epoxy bare metal and have no problems?

i'm going to have my Charger soda blasted, then blow it for 3.5 hours, and then blow it somemore, then sand with 80 grit all over, then clean with thinner and the epoxy primmer and the do some bodywork and paint lime green.

Yes , but when ever you have something soda blasted you need to be VERY thorough with sanding the bare metal cause the soda actually polishes the metal which inturn causes poor adhesion, if not preped right.

[chargerscott]

i started stripping the paint with a razor blade man it is alot of work but i got the truck lid and pass quarter done within to hour. i figure i'll sand the bare metal down with 80 grit and then apply self etching primer wait a day then epoxy primer the do body work, spot prime then paint lime green.

[chargerscott]

almost stripped

[superbirdtom]

after reading all the methods on previous pages and doing body restorations and aircraft painting since 1973 I have seen it all and the best way is self etch followed 2 hours later by epoxy primer . i use dp 50 grey as it is thicker than dp 40 and covers in half the materials . do all your metal work first and get your metal as straight as you can.
you can then spread a skim coat over entire car . I use napa tec supreme . it is by far the best bondo I have ever used ,it just came out and is more pinhole free than anything I have ever used , and Ive used them all the worst is the rage gold it is crapo compared to the napa stuff.

all left over exposed metal you can just go over it with more dp-50 from ppg. before you use their high fill primer. theres a lot of good ones though , for polishing paint a brand called racers is so superor to most its not even close. most have not even heard of it.

I painted a 49 buick special for a guy  complete resto . 2 weeks later it had an engine fire and had to redo the whole front end, well when i applied paint stripper to the whole mess the paint came off but it didn't even touch the trio prime self etch primer from martin senour. it was impregnated into the steel  amazing. had to get it bead blasted off. .   anyway good luck lotsa good info and brands discussed here for sure and methods.

[Doright]

The promlem with self etch and epoxy over it is that some poly surfacers and primer surfacers with react with it and lift.
Epoxy directly over the metal works great cause it seals weld from patch work etc. and you can do filler work right over it.

[superbirdtom]

I HAVE NO PROBEM WITH EPOXY RIGHT OVER BARE METAL. I HAVE DONE THE METAL ETCH ROUTE TOO , WHERE YOU USE AN ETCH CONVERSION COATING ON THE METAL AND THEN EPOXY PRIMER IT. SAME PRINCIPAL AS WHEN I WAS DOING AIRCRAFT PAINTING ,THE ONLY WAY TO REALLY CLEAN ALUMINUM IS TO ETCH IT  ONLY DIFF IS YOU HAVE TO USE ALODINE NEXT ON ALUMINUM. BEFORE EPOXY PRIMER OR THE NEW CHROMATE PRIMERS .

[Doright]

No need to Yell or get upset.

Aluminum is different story all together especially on Aircraft look at my signature I know how its supposed to be done on ACFT.

I just agreed with the way that he said he does it, I am planning the same on my car's!

I am NOT saying your way is wrong!

REPEAT!!!

I am NOT saying your way is wrong!

There are many ways to paint a car

[Doright]

For any one that Care's
Alodine is not used for cleaning Aluminum.

Aircraft Aluminum
First Use a Product called Alumiprep to Etch it cleaning & opening the metal Alodine is then used to Etch it again leaving a Clear or Gold color depending on Color used comes in clear or gold color that seals it From corrosion. It is then sealed again with Zinc Chromate primer.

On a side note NOT all places use the Alumiprep as they should, Few read and adhere to the instructions for the Alodine.

Even when patching Aircraft parts together all parts are treated like this to prevent corrosion.

Both of these documents only take a few minutes to read


http://www.chemical-supermarket.com/files/Henkel%20Alodine%20Conversion%20Coatings/Alumiprep%2033,%20Technical%20Process%20Bulletin.pdf


https://tds.us.henkel.com//NA/UT/HNAUTTDS.nsf/web/5966875CA5C37A6E852571ED0055ED8E/$File/ALODINE®%201201-EN.pdf
For what ever reason this link wont copy and past right here but if you copy and past it into your browser it does
  

[superbirdtom]

hey My caps were locked and I was bleary eyed I wasn't trying to yell.   anyway sometimes when I try to explain things it comes out wrong . yes there are many ways to do a car for sure. I do bondo over metal ,I also bondo over epoxy, I also etch prime then epoxy then bondo over that I also etch metal with conversion coat phosphate then epoxy then bondo. each one is ok but the one that lasts the longest for me anyway is the self etch epoxy bondo route.>>

Now when I was talking about aluminum my point is that to clean any metal, etching is the way to get it the cleanest. on aluminum you should alodine it after the etch.I have done it many many times., and could go into great detail why how etc,but you have that covered. aircraft painting is the worst torture beyond comprehension .

I have then seen and done all the car steps above on aircraft too. I have painted over 100 aircraft. from a long ez to a falcon 200 to t-28 trainer at-6 texan dehavilland beavers ,otters. I painted the helicopter on airwolf with the stars and stripes santini air. blah ad nauseum.  Hey I have had my share of disasters and flub ups big time. I am just trying to spread around this site my experience to novices that are just trying to giterdone. and have the satisfaction of saying hey I did most of this myself. you and I have both seen the same and worked for ultra rich guys that show up at a car show ,and sweep all the trophys and never turned a screw on the car. 

That at one point really turned me off of car shows. then theres the pickers who blab out loud HEY LOOK HE MISSED THIS.  like every car at a show has to be a work of art with 5000 hours into it. like we don't know about that little flaw . anyway take care I hope to never offend anyone on these boards that is not my personality 

[Charger-Bodie]

In my opinion it is bad advice to a do-it-your-selfer  to put self etch under the epoxy primer! WHY? , because there is only a narrow window of products that wont blow up when primer surfacering over that combo.

Is it something a professional with lots of experience around chemicals can get away? Yes, But most of the guys on these types of forums ( especially if they are asking questions) don't have that experience. And therefor don't need any more headaches than they will allready inevitably have..........Rant over.

[mikepmcs]

YES..I believe you are correct sir(in my best Ed McMahon voice)

EDIT.....crap, I was answering Leon's question from page one.  I really gotta pay more attention.

[mikepmcs]

 

[superbirdtom]

In my opinion it is bad advice to a do-it-your-selfer  to put self etch under the epoxy primer! WHY? , because there is only a narrow window of products that wont blow up when primer surfacering over that combo.

Is it something a professional with lots of experience around chemicals can get away? Yes, But most of the guys on these types of forums ( especially if they are asking questions) don't have that experience. And therefor don't need any more headaches than they will allready inevitably have..........Rant over.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>AGREED! SBT       

[Doright]

hey My caps were locked and I was bleary eyed I wasn't trying to yell.   anyway sometimes when I try to explain things it comes out wrong . yes there are many ways to do a car for sure. I do bondo over metal ,I also bondo over epoxy, I also etch prime then epoxy then bondo over that I also etch metal with conversion coat phosphate then epoxy then bondo. each one is ok but the one that lasts the longest for me anyway is the self etch epoxy bondo route.>>

Now when I was talking about aluminum my point is that to clean any metal, etching is the way to get it the cleanest. on aluminum you should alodine it after the etch.I have done it many many times., and could go into great detail why how etc,but you have that covered. aircraft painting is the worst torture beyond comprehension .

I have then seen and done all the car steps above on aircraft too. I have painted over 100 aircraft. from a long ez to a falcon 200 to t-28 trainer at-6 texan dehavilland beavers ,otters. I painted the helicopter on airwolf with the stars and stripes santini air. blah ad nauseum.  Hey I have had my share of disasters and flub ups big time. I am just trying to spread around this site my experience to novices that are just trying to giterdone. and have the satisfaction of saying hey I did most of this myself. you and I have both seen the same and worked for ultra rich guys that show up at a car show ,and sweep all the trophys and never turned a screw on the car. 

That at one point really turned me off of car shows. then theres the pickers who blab out loud HEY LOOK HE MISSED THIS.  like every car at a show has to be a work of art with 5000 hours into it. like we don't know about that little flaw . anyway take care I hope to never offend anyone on these boards that is not my personality 

Hey No problems here! Very good advise if you ask me 
The use of Etching Primers over bare steel metal is dieing one reason is because of the number's of failures out there.
The thought of the failures is your entrapping Acid etch in the paint.
If the rust is what you are trying to stop all you have to do is seal out air and water and the Epoxy does that very well.
I had to have this BEAT into my head, We are not painting Plane's or Aluminum were Painting Steel car's no need to etch the steel.
any way many ways to do it its your car and your way is the best way!


I used too Critic others paint job's too, pointing out the flaws too Until I started painting them! now I know how hard it is!
By the way I too hope to never offend any one just passing on what I have learned.