Protouring build style

[Bill Howell]

Newbie here, I have been a member for a while but haven't posted as I have been working on getting my car together. What is the general feeling here about cars redone in a  more modern style as in bigger brakes, new suspension, modern hemi, etc.
I have been working on a 72 Charger now, for about a year, that has very few original mechanical parts left. It was a matching number car when I bought it, newly rebuilt engine that had never fired when I pulled it out, new frontend that I cut out and replaced with the new XV stage II frontend and a new three link out back.  It now has a new crate 6.4 with a TKO600. I have always wanted a 72 SE, and when I found this absolutely rust free car in Arizona, I could not resist the temptation to build a modern muscled 72. Just checking on the pulse here before I post any build pictures. However, whether you like my build or not, I am sure I have many NOS parts someone here could use, seeing as I am not going to need them.
Here is a rendering of what I am shooting for. The car will not sit this low, but should be close otherwise.

[moparstuart]

kinda KWS style / foose     

[Bill Howell]

kinda KWS style / foose     

thanks, actually I started this before KWS did his car, but this is a much more in depth overhaul, plus my checkbook slowed me down....

[ramit]

Nice...I am glad to see another 72se getting built like that!

[Dans 68]

The pulse here is very strong and steady (well, sometimes it races, but we're car guys so it's expected), so post those pictures!   

Dan

[RallyeMike]

I like the concept a lot. Is the top vinyl or painted? Will the hood paint be texture, semi, or gloss? Will the marker lights be stock or flush? Would love to see some photos. 

[mikesbbody]

Bill, that looks awesome  I have a 72 se (not numbers matching never will be) I like the look your going for  would you consider losing the side marker lights?

[suntech]

Looks great!! Did you get the 68-70 kit from XV to fit the 72?

[mikepmcs]

  MINT!!!

Let's see those pictures.

Welcome BTW.

Mike

[BMOTOXSTAR]

 

[Daytona R/T SE]

I responded to this post last night, but after reading what I posted I decided to delete it since I didn't want to sound like I was being a Dick.

Well here goes.

If I come off as being a Dick, so be it:

I don't like the whole "Foose my ride" look at all.

Two tone paint, shaved door handles, no outside rear view mirrors, ridiculous looking bling bling huge wheels, rubber band tires, etc.


The whole thing reminds me of the "Pro Street" thing in the "80's  everything was tubbed and caged, from muscle cars, to 57 Chevies, all the way down to Chevettes and Pintos - all tubbed and caged

Everybody trying so hard to one-up each other, that all the cars wind up looking the same.

It's your car do what you want with it and have fun.

You asked for opinions, here's mine:

I don't like it.
I Don't like it at all.

[Dodge Don]

Not my preference. I can appreciate the work that goes into them but it would never be my choice. Ever.

[suntech]

I like the pro-touring style
We have ofcause all our own taste and opinions about how it should look, and some of the builds are maybe a little bit to much "bling" in my taste. I like more the hardcore functional kinda look, but that is just me. 

[E5 Charger]

I'm going with more of an original look with mine, but I like it. I think it's great that Chargers are being built in different styles, it keeps things interesting. Nice rendering by the way. I'm sure you can sell some of the parts you removed to members on this site. Welcome and post some pics of the progress.

[NorwayCharger]

I like the pro-touring look, and i like to drive pro-touring.
Do what YOU like to do
I thing the rendering looks good.
Does the 68-70 XV kit fit on the 72?

[WingCharger]

I like the pro-touring look, and i like to drive pro-touring.
Do what YOU like to do
I thing the rendering looks good.
Does the 68-70 XV kit fit on the 72?

Hey, I have read many magazine stories about pro touring, and I like it. Big tires+Big brakes+Big Engine+Good Handling rocks!!

I like your car. Pretty cool!

Norway, yours is my personal favorite Charger of them all!

[suntech]

Does the 68-70 XV kit fit on the 72?

It does fit the 68

[Ryan]

I like it. I really feel that the 71-72 chargers fit the pro touring style better than the second gens. I want pics when its done!

[devilgear]

I like it alot. I have a 73 Charger that I am doing a similar vibe too...

[bill440rt]

When done tastefully, it looks great. YOUR drawing looks great!!!     
I'm doing one now with my '69. 

When done poorly, it can be disgusting. 

[Bill Howell]

Thanks for the comments guys, both pro and con. I have been around long enough to know that when you ask for opinions, you should expect both good and bad and that is cool. If we all liked the same thing, life would be pretty boring. As far as bling, you will not see bling on this car. If you google bill howell 65 gto you will see my last build and some may know the car. It has it's share of bling and I hate chrome so none here. Yes, the 20's are there, but that is for the street, I think they fill the wheelwells good and I will have a set of 18s for the track days this car will see. No huge rollbars, just a hoop for the five point belts, again, for track days.
XV, where do I start. The frontend was a boltin, no issues at all. It was for a 70 charger I think, but when right in. Their brace system to stiffen the car was ok, had to get new bars for the firewall to frontend brace, the first one was too short.
Rearend was totally wrong, but, then they told me my car was the first third gen, so we figured we would have to make some changes to get the three link to fit, just did not realize everything would have to be tweaked.  We gave up after the second set of sub frame connectors, and just used square tubing to make our own.  We worked on the custom three inch exhaust today, it will be a nice fit, thanks Flowmaster.
The hood is painted a satin finish, but I am thinking I may go back and just have the bubble satin and match the rest of the hood with the original color. Roof is vinyl, just because the car came with one and I love that look. I have not decided about the billboards yet, but will probably do them, just to be different.
The brakes are 14in rotors, fronts are six piston, rears are four. Funny thing is, originally the wheels where 14 inch, now the brakes are that size. That is the main reason for the huge wheels, I have to use at least a 18 inch just to clear the rotors.
Vintage Air will handle the A/C duties, so I have a complete A/C setup for sale now.
Once I finish the car, I will post up the parts, but would love to sell it all to one person, all you need is a body, I have most other parts for your project.....lol
I will try and get some pictures tomorrow, but it is on the rack at the moment for the exhaust, so may be a day or two.
Thanks again for the comments guys, and I will keep you up to date with the progress. I have enjoyed watching others and their progress so will be happy to share mine here.
Thanks to Val, who answered my post about gauges, they are on the way to Redline now to get converted to work with the new motor.
Only thing I see that will not work with the three link is the gas tank, we fitted it today just to see how it would work and no go, so I will be spending more money with Rick's Hot Rods. However, they built my last tank and did a great job so no problem there.

[Bill Howell]

I responded to this post last night, but after reading what I posted I decided to delete it since I didn't want to sound like I was being a Dick.

Well here goes.

If I come off as being a Dick, so be it:

I don't like the whole "Foose my ride" look at all.

Two tone paint, shaved door handles, no outside rear view mirrors, ridiculous looking bling bling huge wheels, rubber band tires, etc.


The whole thing reminds me of the "Pro Street" thing in the "80's  everything was tubbed and caged, from muscle cars, to 57 Chevies, all the way down to Chevettes and Pintos - all tubbed and caged

Everybody trying so hard to one-up each other, that all the cars wind up looking the same.

It's your car do what you want with it and have fun.

You asked for opinions, here's mine:

I don't like it.
I Don't like it at all.

I hear ya and agree with most of your post.
My car will have rearview mirrors and doorhandles, no street rods at my house.
I am really into the protouring style, but hate building another camaro, so the charger was my choice to build and kick so camaro booty. I hate prostreet, as most if not all were trailer queens and could not drive around the block without overheating, etc. Trailers are for boats and if you see my car on one, call 911, cause someone stole it. I have over 11,000 miles on my GTO since finishing it three years ago, including two long haul Power Tours. The 19 and 20 inch wheels are for cruising and have the most sidewall I can buy, but there will be a set of 18s with R-compounds for track days. Wait til you see the finished car, it will not be what you see in the rendering, that was for the paint scheme mostly. I need ground clearence, cause I drive my junk....hehe

[Spike]

kinda KWS style / foose     

thanks, actually I started this before KWS did his car, but this is a much more in depth overhaul, plus my checkbook slowed me down....

I think this statement is true of most people, I know my Charger emptied out my checkbook.

Concept looks and sounds great, good luck with it.

[Bill Howell]

Ok, here are a few pictures from two weekends ago.

[Bill Howell]

Four more

[Bill Howell]

Last Four

[suntech]

Rear suspention quite different from the 68. Did you do the mods yourself?

[Bill Howell]

I bought the kit from XV but nothing fit or was used except for the lower trailing arms, top link assembly and the brackets were used for patterns. Panhard bar was all wrong and would not clear the chunk. We also beefed up the mounting point in the center alot. The swaybar is in that upper tube you see at the top and attached on either side of the rearend above the trailing arm mounts. As you can see in one picture, we had to notch the left framerail for clearance also.  As I said before, XV said they had never sold a kit for a 72 and wasn't sure if the pieces would work, so that was on me. I feel this will all work now though and I am happy with the package.  Now if I can just finish the project.....

[dfsmopars]

Ok, here are a few pictures from two weekends ago.

What do you think I think? This winter mine is getting lowered and a modern interior is going in. Eventually everything will be modernized. Go for it! Your color is perfect!

[Bill Howell]

Great! what wheels  you running? I am thinking something like that for the 18s that will be used when autocrossing and roadracing.

[dfsmopars]

My wheels are from Boze. I would love to be where you are right now but I have to move slowly as funds allow. I think your set up is fantastic. I have had original cars and frankly I get bored with them. I do not buy rare collectable cars any more because I want the ones I can put my signature on. I spent Saturday at a Mopar event and the ones that draw me are the ones that have been made better than factory. I do like the classics but give me a fast, comfortable, curve hugging, nodernized muscle car any day.

[BigBlockSam]

wow! dig-in  the car .  i like that big rear and suspension .  i have to do something like that to my daytona . to make it handle better. i get a lot of body roll .  Rene

[BMOTOXSTAR]

 

[Finn]

I dig it!

[FLG]

I gotta say, great work on the suspension/steering and engine, should make the car handle great and preform awesome. I like the pro-touring look on 2nd gens but i cant say the same for 3rd...i like more rubber on my rims, but to each his own. Regardless, good luck and shes comming along great. 

[Mike DC]

 
I'm not a big fan of the Pro Touring "look" although I appreciate the intentions and the efforts of it.  I bailed when Chip Foose's style totally took over. 

It really chafes me to hear this style continually referred to as new or cutting-edge.  The raw idea of a corner-happy musclecar is at least as old as the TAs, AARs, and Z-28s that we're currently restoring.  The roots of the trend's modern rebirth can be traced to the "Big Red" Camaro from 1989.  By the later 1990s, (which was already a full decade ago) there was virtually nothing else in "Popular Hot Rodding" each month.




As for your car, I like most of the exterior body ideas and I definitely dig the suspension stuff.  With the exception of preferring the '73/74 style rear side windows, I can't think of anything I would want to change about it. 


You lost me at the 20" wheels though.  When a car's street rims/tires are even bigger/lower profile than the car's track set . . . that's bling territory.  That kind of 20" rim & sidewall combination looks like it's liable to get $1000 worth of rim damage from a moderate-sized pothole.  IMHO that situation is hardly much more streetable than Pro Street bigs & littles. 

I'd keep 18s on it for the street and get the most tire sidewall height I could find.

[Old Moparz]

The car looks great & should be a lot of fun to drive.    I like the whole concept of upgrading the suspension so it's more comparible to a modern sports car than a 40 year old box on a moving dolly.    

Not complaining, but for me. the one thing I can't get into on the older cars are the huge wheels & tires without any sidewalls. I know it may improve the handling, but the visual is way off to me with such strange proportions of tire, wheel, & wheel wells. 

One question, what color is that?

My '69 Satellite is B3 light metallic blue & looks very close.

[Hemidog]

Cool Charger! 

[SFRT]

that suspension set up rules.

[Bill Howell]

I am not sure on the paint color, but I know it is a factory color for 72. In person it is silver with a blueish/greenish? tint. The guy I bought it from was a true original only type and was so proud of the fact it was FACTORY PAINT, I just dug the color, original did not matter one way or the other.
Rims sizes are certainly a personal taste. As far as streetable, I have a 65 GTO with similar wheel/tire combo and have driven it 11,000  miles, two complete Power Tours, downtown Jersey and NYC and all the other bad roads between here and there and not so much as a flat. I did worry about bent rims at first too, but so far so good. I did get more sidewall with the Charger setup so the ride will be better than the goat. One thing is for sure, you either like the big rims or hate them, there is no in between that I have found. I am 50 years old, and came up in the Rally Wheel only era, so most don't beleive I went from that style to the bigger wheels now, but I did.
I do have an original set of Rallys for the charger with all chrome etc though, If anyone needs a set....

[Joshua]

All new front suspension setup? Looks like iit all needs to go forward @ 1-2"...

[Bill Howell]

That has alot to do with the angle of that picture. The frontend will only bolt up in one position, and it is about 1/2 inch rearward of center of the fender. The way the front flares out compared to the back side of the fender makes it look worse than it is. I guess I should get someone with an original setup to see where the spindle center is from the factory.

[PocketThunder]

+1 vote for the bling wheels here.    and for the demographic, i'm 33.

[RD]

absolutely beatifully stunning.... congrats bill on a good plan and great execution... 3rd gens in protouring just scream "race me".

[Joshua]

That has alot to do with the angle of that picture. The frontend will only bolt up in one position, and it is about 1/2 inch rearward of center of the fender. The way the front flares out compared to the back side of the fender makes it look worse than it is. I guess I should get someone with an original setup to see where the spindle center is from the factory.

Yeah....it "could" be the angle of that pic making it look worse than it is, the pic of the other side doesn't look as far back.....but it definitely is not centered. But for a 3rd gen...it looks cool........ (actually, your build is one of, if not the, nicest I've seen)

I'm not a real big fan of the big, Chrome "bling"-type wheels, but those 3 piece wheels look really nice, not bling, more of a road race DTM, or endurance racer, ALA LeMans.......
Leave the big chromies for the RAPPERS ......

[Bill Howell]

Here are some shots Kevin Ostese of V8TV took recently at my shop.
http://www.v8tvshow.com/images/stories/FeaturesMopar/HowellCharger/BillHowellChargerS_007.jpg
http://www.v8tvshow.com/images/stories/FeaturesMopar/HowellCharger/BillHowellChargerS_008.jpg
http://www.v8tvshow.com/images/stories/FeaturesMopar/HowellCharger/BillHowellChargerS_009.jpg
http://www.v8tvshow.com/images/stories/FeaturesMopar/HowellCharger/BillHowellChargerS_010.jpg
http://www.v8tvshow.com/images/stories/FeaturesMopar/HowellCharger/BillHowellChargerS_013.jpg
http://www.v8tvshow.com/images/stories/FeaturesMopar/HowellCharger/BillHowellChargerS_016.jpg
http://www.v8tvshow.com/images/stories/FeaturesMopar/HowellCharger/BillHowellChargerS_020.jpg

[Hemidog]

Man, that engine looks so small in that huge compartment!   

[studio57]

Hi Bill
my Level II kit wasnt what i was expecting and i have talked with Scott and Peter and for some reason they think there is nothing wrong with my kit, what is your opinion?
is this the quality best you guys can do or has something gone wrong on my kit?
few samples and talk:
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,77825.0.html

http://www.protouringmopar.com/showthread.php?460-XV-motorsports-Level-II-to-68-Charger-modification-started

http://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=6469761&page=0&vc=1&PHPSESSID=#Post6469761

[Bill Howell]

Hi Bill
my Level II kit wasnt what i was expecting and i have talked with Scott and Peter and for some reason they think there is nothing wrong with my kit, what is your opinion?
is this the quality best you guys can do or has something gone wrong on my kit?
few samples and talk:
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,77825.0.html

http://www.protouringmopar.com/showthread.php?460-XV-motorsports-Level-II-to-68-Charger-modification-started

http://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=6469761&page=0&vc=1&PHPSESSID=#Post6469761

I commented in the link above. My frontend fit my car perfectly and overall has been a good fit for what I do with the charger. I have logged 14K+ miles on it since the build and other than the UCA issue at OUSCI in 2009, have been happy. However, that issue should have never happened, and I am yet to get reimbursed for other damage caused by lousy parts. We are talking about one bent fender and one lower ball joint, not alot of money but certainly the principle of making a customer whole seems unimportant.
I have had to replace the wheel bearing assembly due to failure and I upgraded with ZR1 bearing pack, which is much more heavy duty IMO and hopefully takes care of that problem. Remember, Corvettes weigh much less than a 72 charger so I am not sure the factory bearing/hub is strong enough to handle the extra weight. At least if you do what I have been doing with my car.
Now, keep in mind, most will never road race their vehicles and average, normal driving will never stress test one like I do, so don't let my wearing out a bearing effect your decision on who's parts to buy, just know if you do road race, go ahead and upgrade now, saves you from brake knockback and plowing up dirt and grass  because  you had no brakes in turn 4 at Gingerman.... Ask me how I know......

[Paul G]

I love the car! Not the billboard! That billboard is an E body thing. I wouldnt do it on a B body myself. Great work though.  Others dont like the big wheels, I say go for what works. You almost have to for the whole package to work together. 

[Bill Howell]

Thanks, The 19s and 20s haven't been on the car in over a year now. I switched to 18s, which are the smallest I can fit over the 14" brakes and are common size these days on cars. They are powder coated, no chrome so much less bling. The billboard is certainly different, I just wanted something to break up the long body lines and felt billboard if nothing else would make people scratch their heads and wonder if those were ever on chargers or not. Of course they are not. Another small benefit of them is they are vinyl, and certainly protect the paint from road rash, something needed as much as I drive the car.
Sadly, it has sat idle since November now. I broke a valve spring, dropped a valve, and blah, blah, blah. It seems  no one has 6.4 pistons and we have been waiting on those for two months. They should be here anyday now and we can put it all back together. I am upgrading the tranny to the new RS500 from Kiesler. Shafi is a friend of mine and they are just a town or two away so the charger will be one of the first to have the new tranny in it. Actually they are prototyping the correct shifter position now for my car. I have driven two cars with the new tranny and it is much better than the TKO600. It feels like a Muncie of the old days but with one more gear.