Child booster seats, seat belts and your Charger....What do you do?

[Dodge Don]

I have 2 young boys, 6 and 4. By the time my restoration is done they'll be 7 and 5.

I knew that because there was no air bag that they could ride in the front passenger seat in a booster seat with the lap and shoulder belts however apparently the law in Ontario Canada requires that for the rear seat they must be in a booster (ok knew that) but that a shoulder belt must be used by law. That is news to me but apparently true.

Since the Charger has no rear shoulder belts what do you do? I'm not thrilled with the idea of adding shoulder belts in the back....I told my wife the feed the kids more food so they grow quicker 

Curious on what other fathers of young kids do on this? Obviously I want them to be able to both cruise with Dad...not just one at a time. And of course want to take all 4 of us out at same time.

[FLG]

Are you sure this applies to you?

NY law requires seat belts, my friends 52 Dodge dosnt have em...but because of its age and the laws at the time its not required to have seat belts. Pretty much goes that if the car wasnt required to have them at the time, your not required to have them now.

I would double check that this would be a requirement for you because of the cars age i really dont think thats the case. 

[skip68]

I have no shoulder belts and they can't ticket me because my car did not come with them.  My daughter sits in her booster in the back with the lap belt and it works fine. 

[hemi68charger]

Not sure what Canadian law is when it applies to the older cars that didn't come with rear shoulder straps... But, I've driven around with my children in the back of Dana with the booster seat strapped in with the regular lap belts... It isn't going anywhere.. Of course, I had towel covering between the booster and the rear seat......... The kids love it.................

Troy

[Dodge Don]

The law here states that if they car did not come equipped with rear seat shoulder belts they must be installed for an infant to be allowed to sit in a booster seat. There are no references to any grandfathering of older vehicles.

A four point harness car seat (different than a booster seat if you weren't aware) can be used however the law now requires it to not only use the lapbelt but also be tethered to the car structure.

Anyone in Ontario have experiences with this?

[41husk]

Sounds like another reason it's great to be an American

[chargerboy69]

I strap down my daughters car seat with the center lap belt in the back seat. Her car seat has a five point harness. That is the same way I do it in my Suburban, so that is why I do it in my Charger.

[472 R/T SE]

dkn1997 came up with a shoulder harness idea.  He took a belt and run it thru the side of the seat and body and mounted it on the rear wheel inner fender.  Pretty slick set up and I got a picture out of him but don't know where I put it.

Maybe he'll chime in or you could PM him.

[Dodge Don]

Sounds like another reason it's great to be an American

Yeah okay 

[69charger2002]

Sounds like another reason it's great to be an American

Yeah okay 

lol seriously though this may be one for your canadian only friends to answer. here as well(louisiana), the law is if it didn't come with it, you're not required to install it. installing rear shoulder belts would suck!
trav

[dkn1997]

I think we all need to consider what types of seats we are talking about here.  As i understand child seats, and I have two kids, 4&7, there are basically two types. 

infant/toddler seats that have their own seat belts:  If you have ever strapped one of these jobs into your new car, then you see that the shoulder part does basically nothing to hold the seat in.  so strapping your kid into one of these in a lap belt in back of your charger seems pretty ok to me, six of one/half dozen of the other.  I don't know what the law says, but common sense tells me that it's safe.

Booster seats.  usually has a base and a back.  the back is used when they first grow large and strong enough not to be in the infant seat anymore. the back part does have a pass through for the car's shoulder belt, but it's mainly for positioning the belt so it's not up in your kid's jaw.  As they grow even larger, you can toss the back and just use the base because the torso is long enough that the belt sits in the right spot.  IF YOU USE ONE OF THESE SEATS WITH JUST THE LAP BELT, YOU NEED TO HAVE YOUR HEAD EXAMINED.  All of us think nothing of strapping ourselves into just the lap, but we are adults and make our own choices...for kids, big f'ing no no. 

No matter what the law says, put the 3 pointers in the back for the kids.  i'm sure that knowing "if the car wasnt required to have them at the time, your not required to have them now" isn't going to make you feel better when they are scraping your kid off the road with a shovel.

As far as 2nd gen chargers go, you can do 3 pointers in back with the only alteration to the car being that you sacrifice your package tray cover.  if your car is a points car with an original tray cover, then store it and use a repro, dirt cheap.  other than that, it's a bolt in deal and can be reversed easily. 

I was under the impression that kids are not allowed in the front until age 12. unless it's a standard cab pickup or a two seater.

here's how i did mine.  I cannot for sure say it's perfect or as safe as a new car, but it's better than the 40 yr. old torso cutters that were in there.....



http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,11621.0.html

[dodgecharger-fan]

There's a MOPAR that frequents the local cruise ins around here - a Duster if I remember correctly - and he has two car seats in the back.

He bit the bullet and put anchors through the package tray and in to the structure underneath.

At worst, you end up replacing the package tray cover down the road and you still have the mounting holes in the structure - but they'd be hidden with the new cover.

[69_500]

Personally speaking, I drove all of the way to Carlisle in my 500 with my 4 year old son this summer. He loved it. Riding in the front seat, on his booster seat that is. Just ran the lap belt over his lap, and let him enjoy the ride. Heck from what I remember growing up and riding in these cars, I NEVER wore a seat belt in the rear seat, and actually spent 90% of the time standing up behind my dad and holding on to the headrest in many a 500 and Daytona.

[skip68]

Man, how did any of us survive ?   

[dkn1997]

I did all that same stuff as a kid too.  We had an aunt that we despised because she made us wear belts in the back seat of the car in the 70's...we made so much fun of her..... but with what we know now....I don't know how I would ever sleep again if I lap belted my kid into the car and something happened.  I'm all for the nostalgia of the good old days and I agree that the world is sometimes a bit "too safe" but I just cannot abide by not belting kids up in a way that's generally accepted as safe.   my kids missed out on a couple of years of cruising while life got in the way of the install...no regrets at all. 

[Mike DC]

 
Decades ago, we mainly just had to make sure we didn't crash ourselves. 


The roads are literally about twice as crowded now as they were 30 years ago.  With idiots in safer-feeling cars, so they drive them twice as close to their limits all the time.  And most modern cars have twice as many electronic distractions and sometimes people talk on cell phones.


----------------------------------------------------


If you're gonna wear lap belts for sure, then you might as well wear retractable shoulder belts on them too.  IMO it's really not that much of a difference in convenience between those two. 

I'd just weld into the car and install them right.  Do it right and the brackets could be ground off later without evidence. 

It's already gonna cost you several hundred dollars just to get the retractable setups themselves.  I see little point in messing up the install just to avoid cutting up $150 worth of (non-original Legendary made) upholsterly pieces.  That stuff won't even cost you any replacement money at all unless you actually want to remove the belt setups later. 

[472 R/T SE]

I'm glad this was brought up.  In my mind I cringe every time my daughter gets in the back.  A little thought can save her from going through life like her Dad.  This will be one of my projects this winter. 

Yes the old days.  I always remember my Mom doing the clothes line on me to keep from eating the dash.  Riding on the edge of the lowered tail gate so we could let our baseball cleats touch the pavement every once in a while so we could ew & ah over the sparks was just one of the many moments.

Seatbelts were frowned on back then like smokers are nowadays.

[bill440rt]

I think we all need to consider what types of seats we are talking about here.  As i understand child seats, and I have two kids, 4&7, there are basically two types. 

infant/toddler seats that have their own seat belts:  If you have ever strapped one of these jobs into your new car, then you see that the shoulder part does basically nothing to hold the seat in.  so strapping your kid into one of these in a lap belt in back of your charger seems pretty ok to me, six of one/half dozen of the other.  I don't know what the law says, but common sense tells me that it's safe.

Booster seats.  usually has a base and a back.  the back is used when they first grow large and strong enough not to be in the infant seat anymore. the back part does have a pass through for the car's shoulder belt, but it's mainly for positioning the belt so it's not up in your kid's jaw.  As they grow even larger, you can toss the back and just use the base because the torso is long enough that the belt sits in the right spot.  IF YOU USE ONE OF THESE SEATS WITH JUST THE LAP BELT, YOU NEED TO HAVE YOUR HEAD EXAMINED.  All of us think nothing of strapping ourselves into just the lap, but we are adults and make our own choices...for kids, big f'ing no no. 

No matter what the law says, put the 3 pointers in the back for the kids.  i'm sure that knowing "if the car wasnt required to have them at the time, your not required to have them now" isn't going to make you feel better when they are scraping your kid off the road with a shovel.

As far as 2nd gen chargers go, you can do 3 pointers in back with the only alteration to the car being that you sacrifice your package tray cover.  if your car is a points car with an original tray cover, then store it and use a repro, dirt cheap.  other than that, it's a bolt in deal and can be reversed easily. 

I was under the impression that kids are not allowed in the front until age 12. unless it's a standard cab pickup or a two seater.

here's how i did mine.  I cannot for sure say it's perfect or as safe as a new car, but it's better than the 40 yr. old torso cutters that were in there.....



http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,11621.0.html

Excellent advice!! 
Perfect timing, too. My son is at the age where he is growing out of his 3-point toddler seat & into a booster using the vehicle's shoulder belt. The toddler seat works fine with the rear seat lap belt, but I would NEVER put him in a booster using only that one belt. His toddler seat is good for a while yet, so whenever he rides in the back of the Charger he's always strapped in correctly.

Damn, times HAVE changed. Standing up in the back?? Heck, I remember lying flat on the PACKAGE TRAY in my mom's big ol' Caddy when I was a youngster. I used to love falling on the big back seat when she stepped on the brakes! Good Lord, how am I still ALIVE? 

[69charger2002]

I did all that same stuff as a kid too.  We had an aunt that we despised because she made us wear belts in the back seat of the car in the 70's...we made so much fun of her..... but with what we know now....I don't know how I would ever sleep again if I lap belted my kid into the car and something happened.  I'm all for the nostalgia of the good old days and I agree that the world is sometimes a bit "too safe" but I just cannot abide by not belting kids up in a way that's generally accepted as safe.   my kids missed out on a couple of years of cruising while life got in the way of the install...no regrets at all. 

have you seen a lot of kids split in half by lap belts only or something? i'd like to know why lap belts only are so unsafe? i agree that shoulder belts help, i'm not disputing that, but you make it out like lap belts kill if you get in a wreck, and i don't necessarily agree
trav

[bill440rt]

Lap belts just don't offer the amount of protection shoulder belts do.

This may prove the point:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2kO8AxKbrM

This is downright scary:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oN-zv6n5pTk

And, now for the educational portion:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WD9fWlyL_hk

[Kevin68N71]

I'll add one more dimension to all this.

10 years ago when my 14 year old was 4, we used to cruise in the cars all the time.  The 1964 Olds was the vehicle of choice.  There are only lap belts.

Back then, his booster seat (not an infant seat, it was basically a seat with no arms) came with its own shoulder belt, part of the seat itself.  The seat could be belted in with a shoulder belt combo or JUST a lap belt.  I had that sucker in there tight!  And my son had the seat's shoulder belts on at all times.

I gave those seats away years ago.

Now, when my present 5 year old son grew out of his baby seat, our first step, before the aforementioned "backless" booster seat, was a seat very similar to what we had before, except, it does not have its own belt.  You use the cars belt, OVER the child.  IN other words, as most people know these seats now, the child uses the car's belts, the seat is not anchored to ANYTHING like in an infant seat.

I was so doubtful when I got mine that I called up the company and asked what is up.  She told me that the designs have changed, and now they want the child's seat to move WITH the child in an accident, evidently it is safer that way.  I don't know what to think.  Today's seats are sloppy, and it kind of bothers me that the centrifugal force in an accident would include the weight of the seat against the child.

Solution?  I have not taken my little guy in a lapbelt only car yet.  He can ride in the front of my Mustang GT as it has a shoulder belt and no airbag.  My other son and I ride lapbelt only all the time in some of the cars.

I believe the child seat industry simply turned its back on lapbelt only support for cars.

[dkn1997]

I did all that same stuff as a kid too.  We had an aunt that we despised because she made us wear belts in the back seat of the car in the 70's...we made so much fun of her..... but with what we know now....I don't know how I would ever sleep again if I lap belted my kid into the car and something happened.  I'm all for the nostalgia of the good old days and I agree that the world is sometimes a bit "too safe" but I just cannot abide by not belting kids up in a way that's generally accepted as safe.   my kids missed out on a couple of years of cruising while life got in the way of the install...no regrets at all. 

have you seen a lot of kids split in half by lap belts only or something? i'd like to know why lap belts only are so unsafe? i agree that shoulder belts help, i'm not disputing that, but you make it out like lap belts kill if you get in a wreck, and i don't necessarily agree
trav

So what if they don't kill you?  I don't know about you, but i'm all for stacking the deck in my favor.  A lap belt does not have to split you in half to hurt you.  Your bottom half stays while your spine, kidneys, spleen, and other internal organs, not to mention your head/face....all of that shit keeps going.  If your going at a decent clip, it's gonna leave a mark .

My brother was in his  66 polara 4 door back in 1985.  going about 15 mph, skidded in the rain and went into a tree.  almost no visible damage to the car, and he was wearing a lap belt.   I'll bet he wants his two front teeth back that got smashed on the steering wheel.  a shoulder belt would have prevented that. 

My point is that why bother when it's so easy to put 3 point belts in. easily done with no permanent mods to the car.  and again, I would feel like a pretty shitty dad if one of my little ones got any more hurt than they had to.  It's something you can control...unlike the unlicensed motorist who is attracted to your car like a moth to a candle and won't rest till he puts you in the haybails.

yeah, the torso cutter comment was a bit over the top...it could happen, but you might have to be going about 150mph.... 

[NMike]

my kids ride around the back of my old ramcharger with just booster seats and lap belts.

as long as they are buckled in with booster seats i wouldn't worry about the OPP smacking your PP.

if you do get a ticket just fight it. explain to the judge that you are not an  engineer. cars have to be engineered for the shoulder harness mounts. the car was never designed for them and installing them might be more harm than good.

just another reason why Ontarible is the Armpit of Canada........ all the crappy Lieberal government laws.....

[Dodge Don]

Good info guys. I'm not concerned with beating a ticket. My only two concerns are:

1) Protecting my kids

2) Not butchering up my restored Charger

[THE COLONEL]

I'm kind of inthe boat with everyone else.  I have three of my four kids ride with me.  My 3 year old, and 6 year old just rideon their booster seat with the lap belt.  I would nenevr think in a million years I would get a ticket for that.  You have to do what you have to do...and the only we have in these cars are the lap belt.  I make sure mine are tight for them, and I really feel they are safe.  Now my oldest, who is 8, rides up in the front, and at 8 years of age, he does not need a booster seat now.  I am assuming (yes I know what it means when someone assumes ) that because of these cars not having airbags, there should be no reason why he can't ride up front....right?  That is the only question I have about kids in the old cars.  the reason they are put inth eback is because of the airbags. 

[Ghoste]

I just never took the kids in the 67.  Even if I had installed a tether for the back (and that big space behind the seats in a first gen would make a great anchor point), I still would have been uncomfortable about them being in those fold down seats.  We discussed putting the car seats in there and my wife was going to look into what was legally needed but I just didn't want to do it.  I don't recall ever hearing that we would have needed to retrofit shoulder belts but even though my kids have only been out of that phase a short time, things can change pretty quickly in Ontario law without us ever knowing.

[Dodge Don]

Well I discovered that the Ontario law on this does not apply to vehicles that are only equipped with lap belts. That is on the Ontario Ministry of Transportation site. So under the law we are not obligated to change anything. That is good news.

However I still will need to consider the safety of my kids aspect.

[Old Moparz]

Well I discovered that the Ontario law on this does not apply to vehicles that are only equipped with lap belts. That is on the Ontario Ministry of Transportation site. So under the law we are not obligated to change anything. That is good news.

However I still will need to consider the safety of my kids aspect.

Don,

My daughter is 9 now, but when she was younger & rode in my Satellite convertible, all I did was use the lap belt to hold her child seat in place. The child seat had the side bolsters & a harness that went over her shoulders & clipped into the seat bottom between the legs. (Like a race car set up.) I did put her in the front seat so the windshield gave her better protection from debris & wind. Even though there wasn't a shoulder belt or anchoring point for the tether, the child seat stayed in place tightly. I would fold a large towel & place it on the seat to help keep the vinyl from getting scratched or indentations. The child seat we have is adjustable & has the ability to match the angle of the car seat which prevents it from rocking & sliding. There's even an adjustable stabilizer on the bottom, front, of the seat base to make up for different factory seating shapes or angles.

I felt that this was very safe since I did the exact same thing with her seat in th rear of the 1995 Ford F-150 pick up truck I used to own. The reason I say this, is that she was unhurt after the F-150 was rear-ended by a tractor trailer while she was in it with my wife one day. I'd center her child seat in the rear where there was only a lap belt, then pull it as tight as I could to pull the child seat snug to where it wouldn't rock or slide. She was asleep when the accident happened & had only bumped her head on the padded lap bolster. The F-150 was hit hard, since the driver's seat bent from my wife who was driving, & the frame of the truck buckled in the center where the cab meets the bed. My wife was okay as well, but said her body was sore for days. I did the same thing in my 2004 Ram as far as location, but it had anchor points for the tethers I used. Did this until she was too big for the seat.

[1972Rallye]

I work for an aftermarket & performance seating company that also produces child seats.  After having a good, long discussion with the child seat engineer, I am going to be purchasing a new child seat for my 5 year old.  My company does make a child seat (not a booster) that will accept up to 70lbs. with just a lap belt.  I might consider installing a top-tether anchor, but it is not required for this particular seat.  She rides with me frequently to shows and cruises... 

I don't care what the law says about requirements for older cars, I'm going do what's right for my kids.  This thread got me to re-think things a bit... Thanks!

[Mike DC]

 
Another wrinkle in this whole thing is the strength of the Charger seats themselves. 


I know the '68/69 lowback buckets are literally unsafe in terms of the steel frames themselves.  I've seen several Charger wrecks where the weight of an average-size adult passenger's torso alone bent the seatbacks way out of shape during a hard impact.   

[dodgecharger-fan]

Well I discovered that the Ontario law on this does not apply to vehicles that are only equipped with lap belts. That is on the Ontario Ministry of Transportation site. So under the law we are not obligated to change anything. That is good news.

However I still will need to consider the safety of my kids aspect.

If the child seat has a harness for the child, that'll keep all their body parts in one general motion - wherever the seat is going. The lap belt would be used just to hold the seat down. So, not a risk to the child's mid section if the design of the seat allows for the belt to run through the seat rather than across the child's lap.

I think that would work fine.

I know. Booster seats are not full seats with harnesses, but you can get the full seats for bigger kids that do..

Britax is one company that comes to mind....
http://www.britax.com/

[472 R/T SE]

Neat set up this dude did in his blown '70 Charger.

[Shakey]

I plan on installing an achor in the package tray and concealing it with a cover as found on the newer cars.

I feel that that, with the lap belt holding the children's seats in place should be sufficient.

One of these years when I get to it, I'll post some photos.

[Skued]

Neat set up this dude did in his blown '70 Charger.

Now that's a safe seat! Even comes with pink ear protection!

I'm always nervous with my 7 & 5 years in Charger.  The five point seat has me really thinking.  Great topic Don, I'm glad you brought it up.

[Mike DC]

 

That pic has a scary lack of rollbar padding though.  (And look at the bends on the horizontal hoop - I smell some thin-walled exhaust tubing there.) 

Even with the seat fully strapped in, it's a mistake to assume that the kid couldn't get heaved around violently enough to contact one of those bars. 




Rollbar padding is a subject that we're often neglectful of.  I think the safety people have raised the minimum density/stiffness guidelines a couple of times in the last 15 years. 

The current padding recommendation for head-contact areas is so stiff that it actually feels more like a padded vinyl dash than a foam item.

[472 R/T SE]

Kind of an in jest poke at DD.  If you'd seen the quality and detail, direction he's going with his car, there's no way a roll bar will ever grace the interior of his car. 

Above pic is of an 80's Pro Street lookin' car that'll never see the track.  No matter how hard I worked him over.  It's strictly a show poodle, trailer queen. 

[Dodge Don]

Kind of an in jest poke at DD.  If you'd seen the quality and detail, direction he's going with his car, there's no way a roll bar will ever grace the interior of his car. 

Mike is right (like usual). No way will a roll bar get installed. If I had a drag car then yes absolutely. It's going to be nerve racking enough driving the thing looking out for every pepple on the road that might jump up and hurt my baby. 

[Rolling_Thunder]

Well - I am convinced...   I do not have kids of my own but hell - I drive with GOOD friends of mine in the car...   a shoulder belt can only help...   child or adult - it is only a GOOD addition...   I'll be adding these to my Charger...    granted my charger is not a 100 point resto but more of a fun driver - I'll also end up installing a 3-point system for the front drivers as well...     

[dkn1997]

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,50200.0.html

Not even a scratch on my 8 year old.  WEARING A SHOULDER BELT!!! 

[1969chargerrtse]

Not for nothing but I grew up in an era that we didn't have or wear seat belts, all 6 kids. When we took the bus to school we had to stand up in front and wait until our stop, while it was traveling at 40 plus mph.   Those were the days.  Muscle cars, loud noise and no protection.  But I made it.   I didn't wear a helmet on my motorcycle either, my thought was drive defensive and don't get hit.

[dkn1997]

Not for nothing but I grew up in an era that we didn't have or wear seat belts, all 6 kids. When we took the bus to school we had to stand up in front and wait until our stop, while it was traveling at 40 plus mph.   Those were the days.  Muscle cars, loud noise and no protection.  But I made it.   I didn't wear a helmet on my motorcycle either, my thought was drive defensive and don't get hit.

I would submit that we did all of that stuff because we didn't know better back then.  We do know better now.  I survived all of that too.  I actually fell out of the car when I was 5.  doesn't mean I want my kids reliving that so I can feel like a tough guy. It goes against my grain to live my life in a sanitary/ultrasafe world, but there are some things I won't compromise on when it comes to safety

[1969chargerrtse]

Not for nothing but I grew up in an era that we didn't have or wear seat belts, all 6 kids. When we took the bus to school we had to stand up in front and wait until our stop, while it was traveling at 40 plus mph.   Those were the days.  Muscle cars, loud noise and no protection.  But I made it.   I didn't wear a helmet on my motorcycle either, my thought was drive defensive and don't get hit.

I would submit that we did all of that stuff because we didn't know better back then.  We do know better now.  I survived all of that too.  I actually fell out of the car when I was 5.  doesn't mean I want my kids reliving that so I can feel like a tough guy. It goes against my grain to live my life in a sanitary/ultrasafe world, but there are some things I won't compromise on when it comes to safety

I'm hearing ya.