Question on options, D21 (4speed) with H51 (Air Conditioning)

[az69rtcharger]

Ok I am really confused now, I thought you could not get a 4 speed with air conditioning on chargers. There is Charger R/T dash on ebay that the owner say it does.
He said in a e-mail to me;

"In the last 40+ years owning mopars I've probably owned at least 20-25 H51/D21 codes on fender tags on 68-70 B bodies which of course is 4-speed a/c. Never heard of a four speed a/c 6-pack or hemi car tho"

Is this true?

Here is the link
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4584751391&sspagename=ADME%3AL%3ARTQ%3AUS%3A1

[Doc74]

The only thing about this I know for sure is that no hemi car came with A/C, I believe there was just no room for it, experts will correct me on this.
I don't think a 4 spd with A/C is impossible, just more rare.

[694spdRT]

A 4 speed and A/C was available. I believe the seller is correct about the Six pack not having A/C...Hemi was definatley not.

Thinking about it I seem to recall something about no A/C available with the steeper 4.10 gears. 

[hemi68charger]

Nope... you couldn't get a 4-speed with a/c if it was a 440 4bbl, 440+6 or 426 hemi, any year....... Now, 383 configrations are another deal..........

Troy

[hemi68charger]

And another note.. If it was an original 4-speed car, where's the "reverse" light?   

Troy

[az69rtcharger]

In the photos its to hard to tell but it looks like it might have one by the ashtray. I also e-maild him for a closer picture of it but have not heard back

[Just 6T9 CHGR]

And another note.. If it was an original 4-speed car, where's the "reverse" light?

Troy

I was thinking the same thing.

383 was the only way you could ger 4 speed & A/C

[hemi68charger]

here's a pic I snagged off ebay.. it's a '69 Coronet R/T clone..... They have the reverse light in the same place as the Chargers.. Notice it just to the left of the ash tray...

Troy

[694spdRT]

Anyone know if that changed in the 3rd gens?

I know of a '74 400 4 speed with A/C...although, come to think of it the 400 is actually the 383 replacement anyway.

[hemi68charger]

Anyone know if that changed in the 3rd gens?

I know of a '74 400 4 speed with A/C...although, come to think of it the 400 is actually the 383 replacement anyway.

Nope, you still couldn't get a 440 with air running a manual tranny........ Now, a 400 you could..........

Troy

[MichaelRW]

I believe dealer installed A/C was available for any car including one with the Hemi. For it to be "correct" it must have the dealer paperwork to back up the claim.

[az69rtcharger]

I know that if it was a dealer installed unit, that would be an under the dash unit, and you could tell that. To make it look like a factory air the dealer would have to change out the whole dash unit since the non-ac dash and the ac dash are different.

[Brock Samson]

In the Princess car museum in Vegas, there is a gold, ex-Bill Harrah '66 HEMI Satellite with what appears to be factory A/C.. 

[694spdRT]

I know that if it was a dealer installed unit, that would be an under the dash unit, and you could tell that. To make it look like a factory air the dealer would have to change out the whole dash unit since the non-ac dash and the ac dash are different.

Did much dealer installed air installations really happen? It seems like a lot of work and the firewall would need some modifications also to make it look factory under the hood.

[az69rtcharger]

Here in arizona, there were lots of dealer installed air conditioners in the late 60s and early 70s. I used to work for a local Dodge Dealer and saw a few cars come in for air conditioners, mosly due to the fact that people moving to Arizona from colder states and they wanted to stay cool in the summer. 115 degrees in rush hour is murder without a/c

[694spdRT]

Here in arizona, there were lots of dealer installed air conditioners in the late 60s and early 70s. I used to work for a local Dodge Dealer and saw a few cars come in for air conditioners, mosly due to the fact that people moving to Arizona from colder states and they wanted to stay cool in the summer. 115 degrees in rush hour is murder without a/c

So would most of that happen on cars that were already sold and later brought in versus a "new" car off the lot purchase. My dad had A/C installed in a '82 Dodge truck once. They used factory vents but, under the hood looked different.

[az69rtcharger]

Yes most were done after the cars were bought, on the newer cars the dash panels are more universal as ac was becoming more standard as time whent on, and it was cheaper to use only one dash panel for all thats why you could use the normal vents. I have 2 extra dash panels for 69 chargers 1 is for A/C Cars and the other is for non-A/C Cars.

[hemigeno]

You guys are correct about a 383/4-speed/H51 combo being available.  One more thing - it was only available with the 383 4bbl (HP), not with the 383 2bbl option.  Big deal, I know, but I thought I would mention it anyway...   

Incidentally, I haven't seen any dealer-installed A/C setups on either a 440-6 or a Hemi.  Both would have had severe space limitations, and I don't know if they had perfected under-slung compressors back then.  I've heard a few people have added modern A/C systems to Hemi's (they mounted the compressor essentially underneath the alternator, and I think they switched to an electric fuel pump too) but they had to be real creative with the bracketry.  Someone from AZ would have been properly motivated to figure that sort of thing out, so maybe they did that back in "the day."   

My family has had A/C "added" to a couple of vehicles by the dealer.  I was not impressed with their performance at all.

[az69rtcharger]

Ok here is the official answer I got from Galen Govier;

Michael,
No such thing as an RB Engine with a 4-Speed and A/C, (426 & 440 V8)
No such thing as a Multiple Carbureted engine with A/C, (Six Pack & Hemi)
the only exception (I am not that familiar with them) would be the 1955-1964 Chrysler 300 Letter cars.

Keep the Faith,
Galen V. Govier

[69_500]

Well as far as the early 300's go you could get A/C with the HEMI however i'm not sure if you could get it with a 4 speed or not.

[694spdRT]

I believe the four speed was first available in 1963 up until that point it would have been a 3 speed or 3 speed OD. The 1963 4 speeds are rather rare and used a version of the Borg Warner T10. The Chrylser 833 started in 1964.

[Just 6T9 CHGR]

Ok here is the official answer I got from Galen Govier;

Michael,
No such thing as an RB Engine with a 4-Speed and A/C, (426 & 440 V8)
No such thing as a Multiple Carbureted engine with A/C, (Six Pack & Hemi)
the only exception (I am not that familiar with them) would be the 1955-1964 Chrysler 300 Letter cars.

Keep the Faith,
Galen V. Govier

Hope you didnt have to pay for that answer.

You got it for free right here

[az69rtcharger]

Luckly I did not have to pay Galen for the info, sometimes he does share info for free. But I'm glad every one here is as knowlegable as Galen, I really think information like this sould be shared for free for everyone. I'm not saying Galen should not charge for his service he is very knowlegable and spent a lot of time doing research, but I would rather get as much information here as we are all in this to help each other out. This is one way I do research along with my books, and networking with others and this group. I feel all information should be free to all of us, so we may all become knowlegable in our hobby. As with most of you have done, as I get more information I intend to post it to my website to share with all. My thanks to all in the group who have responded, we are all brothes in the Charger family

[John_Kunkel]

I've never understood Mopar's reasoning for not offering the 440-4 with a 4-speed and A/C. They undoubtedly lost lots of sales due to that policy; considering the other two of the big three offered their biggest motors with 4-speeds and A/C.

The reason for not offering it on the Hemi and 6-packs, even with the auto trans, was a lack of room for the compressor.

[694spdRT]

 

That probably is a large reason for the relatively low number of 4 speed R/T's compared to automatics as well. If you wanted air you had to go automatic.

[69_500]

I agree, I think that is one reason you don't see very many 4 speed RT/SE's. I mean if your going for the SE you want things to be plush on the inside meaning A/C so you couldn't get that 4 speed to bang.