hemigeno's Daytona restoration - a few more tweaks... again!

[maxwellwedge]

Most original coil wires have white script whereas the plug wires are that yellow color....I'll have to check the boot color out - I have a bunch of original wires in a box I call "Box - O - Wires"   

Every starter I have seen on Daytona's is the earlier casting # starter...I will post the casting number on the weekend - number escapes me at present.

That motor looks like it will make some noise!

OK - Checked on the starter #'s - Me (a few Daytona's), Gibson and Badalson have pretty well seen starter casting # 2095219 on original Daytona's.

Darn - Forgot to forrage thru my "Box-O - Wires" 

Re the tape on the shift rods. Discovered that on the 'Cuda Roger did for me a few years ago...Also have them on my '70 Challenger. It was thin strips of the black cloth "friction" tape (or as we Canucks call it - Hockey tape).

Never found any on any pre-70 stuff but that's not to say it didn't happen.

[hemigeno]

Sorry for the delay in getting back - been a busy weekend...

Thanks, everyone, for the compliments - although I can't take a whole lot of credit for the work that's being done.  I'm learning through this process like most of us are, and digging into the what's and why's of the details is one of the most interesting things for me.

Just as a point of clarification... the starter that is on the engine is not the date-correct used starter I had given Vance for use on the completed engine.  The correct starter is still sitting in a box somewhere waiting to be sent off for restoration, even though I had suggested to Vance very early on that it was OK to have components like this restored and sitting on the shelf.  It's not a big deal though, as changing out the starter is a snap - and it won't hold up the rest of the engine testing, painting or detailing.  If that is indeed the later style starter in the pictures, I'm not surprised since Vance works on an awful lot of later E-body stuff.

It never hurts to find out information on the correct parts though - thanks, Jim, for digging up that info on the casting number.  Part numbers are easier to find, but casting numbers sometimes only come from looking at correct vintage parts.  I recently got an education on Hemi direct-drive starter nosepiece casting numbers, and that came with a lot of help from other folks in a similar fashion.   

Same goes on the coil wire details you shared.  I THINK the coil wire on this NOS set has yellow lettering like the rest of the wires, but I honestly didn't pay attention to that detail.  The large-size picture files unfortunately didn't show a picture of the coil wire's lettering.   Hopefully I'll remember to look next time, but my guess is that this set's lettering is yellow.  Were ALL of the original coil wires you've seen the white-lettered types, or were they mixed?  I know I didn't mess with this set at all - the plug wire itself is straight from the parts package.  A lot of you guys already know that there is often a difference between NOS replacement parts and factory-used assembly line parts.  This could be a classic example of such.

just to beat the rear axle bumper discussion to death did you find white painted stripes on yours?  there was one stripe running from front to rear (as they're mounted on the car) in the ribbed section on the GTX I'm working on--the paint even survived the glass beading I used (which worked phenomenally well, by the way.)

what I have is pinstripe width--i could take a picture of it if I remember my stupid camera... 

Doug, I had picked up one of the axle bumpers to look it over, and there was no white or other striping on it that I remember seeing.  I don't know what method Vance or his guys used to clean the bumper up, and it could be that a light sandblasting removed any evidence of such.  I'll try to remember to ask about the stripe (whether he's seen such before) next time I talk to him.  Vance handles all of the finer detail work on the parts himself, so what Tim & Joey had done may not reflect how the part eventually looks.

I sure wish someone made those jagged pieces to hold headliner tight. ? anyone know

I honestly don't know who - if anyone - reproduces them at the moment, although someone may already be doing so.  It looks like something Chris (Daytona R/T SE) could fab in his sleep though.  Someone has undoubtedly come across a solution to the problem before now.

No Kidding!!  Geno is setting the bar at 18' in the pole vault.

I see they even partially painted the battery cable in primer just like the final product gets partially painted with color.. 

Thanks Rene & Paul - but there are some guys on here and elsewhere who have done excellent jobs with their cars (Aero and otherwise) as well.  The bar was already set that high through their work, and I'm just hoping that my pole doesn't break and that I hit the mat on the way down.  I think the biggest reason I'm putting myself through the excruciating process called concours-restoration is to be able to educate myself and others how and why the cars looked the way they did when new.  This thread helps with the learning process, and the finished product can hopefully serve in the same capacity - to serve as an (admittedly flawed because it has been restored) example of the finer details these cars all had when new.

Oh, and I found it interesting that the negative cable was shot in primer as well.  Same thing for the ground cable at the rear of the engine.  I suppose if you're going to create the proper paint outline around the cable ends with bare metal underneath, you'd have to install the cable before priming.  The wire insulation would get a coating of primer for the same reason the originals were blasted with engine-color paint... it was in the way of the paint spray.

You can go overboard easily on certain details .Did you know on 4 speed shift rods the excess threads were wrapped with a skinny paper tape.I had seen this a few times .And emailed Roger Gibson who recalled this tape on the shift rods

Can't say that I've observed that phenomenon myself, but I wouldn't doubt it.  I would, however, be curious to know the purpose of that tape.  Would it be to preserve the threads so that the rods could be easily adjusted in the future?  You'd think that if it was for inspection purposes that a paint daub would have served just as well and taken less time.  I'll ask Vance if that is a late 1969 detail in addition to '70+.

[maxwellwedge]

Hey Gene.

The white lettered coil wire must have been an assembly line deal - Have not personally seen it in NOS wire sets....But never say never!

All the taped shifter rods I have seen on cars I own or have owned have been on E-Bodies. I guess because the shifter is a lot further back than a B-Body. The factory had to adjust them and remove them (1-2, and 3-4 rods) because the rods pass through a loop(?) in the tunnel...Once installed, the taped swivels on the rods are still in perfect adjustment. I have some pics somewhere   

A lot of parts are randomly marked during inspection. Some cars a lot - others not so much. I had a survivor 'Cuda that had a white stripe on every single body plug on the car! My guess is some worker forgot to put in a few once and the foreman was busting his chops to mark each one. A lot of parts were color coded as well....I have seen bumpers with and without a paint code. There is no 100% firm answer here.

When you come up I got a bunch of stuff to show you.

Car is looking good - You are going to drive it...right?   

[hemigeno]

Jim, thanks for the info on coil wires, and I'm not surprised to hear that it's an assembly line thing.  Yet one more topic I need to do some research on...  Your explanation on E-Body shift rods makes sense, and that might mean it wouldn't be applicable for a '69 B-body.  I'll dig around some and see if anyone knows more on the subject. 

When you come up I got a bunch of stuff to show you.

I'm looking VERY forward to that trip, although my camera isn't... 

Car is looking good - You are going to drive it...right?   

To answer your question, yes and no.  When the car is fresh off its restoration, I'll probably resign it to temporary trailer queen status.  How long that lasts, I don't know.  My fear isn't as much that something will get damaged, as it is that I'll not want to spend the time cleaning everything up again to concours-level standards.  After the car has gone through Carlisle (and MAYBE the 'Nats) judging once, I'll not worry as much about that sort of thing.  One of the things I REALLY liked about Vance Cummins was his desire to see the finished cars driven as much as possible.  He told me a story about Harold Sullivan almost freaking out over a dent put in one of his Hemi E-bodies from driving it.  Vance says he told Harold he would fix the dent for free, just to prove a point that driving the cars does not ruin them.  Almost anything you can do to the car can be repaired.  I liked that philosophy a lot, and plan to put it into practice not too long after the car is done.  Although, I won't be cruising the backroads on this 40 year old set of rubber tires I bought... 

[hemigeno]

One piece of good news I received today is that the rubber radiator air seals will officially be on order either Friday or Monday.  The manufacturer thinks they can get the material shipped out around the 16th of January.  David Patik may be able to get the seals cut out, properly cured to match the original stiffness, and delivered to me before the 29th of January - which is the date I'm heading north to Vance's shop again.

Another huge development from a discussion with David P. today is that he gave me some pointers which may allow the original fender-to-nosecone seals to be refurbished to the point they could be reused.  THAT is a relief to me, as I have been getting increasingly worried that I was not going to be able to "create" a new set of seals as planned.  Once we figure out that the process works, I'll outline what was done. 

If the rubber air seal and nosecone seal issues are resolved, there is not too much keeping the car out of the paint booth.  That's great news...   

I also talked with Vance today (and I'm sending him another link to this thread so perhaps he'll chime in  ).  While I was bugging him about some other stuff, I asked about the axle bumper striping that Doug mentioned.  The originals did indeed have a white ink mark on them, as Vance has observed that before.  Like I suspected, he has not detailed everything just yet, and that was on his list of things to do before installation on the framerails. 

He also said that all of the original coil wires he's seen had yellow lettering to match the spark plug wires.  He specifically remembered that Chris Sauer's Daytona retained its original coil wire, which had the single red boot and yellow lettering.  That's not to say coil wires never had white lettering, but it was definitely not an exclusive trait - plus, to Vance's knowledge (and mine too, FWIW) the coil wire is no different internally than any other spark plug wire.  More research to do here, but I'm pretty comfortable that the wire on the engine is fine to use.  Question for Jim B... What do the DocTona and DiscoTona have on their coil wires (are they still the originals)?  I haven't checked Jim McCauley's F5 car for that, but you'd think it would be another good one to look at.

Vance knew about the friction tape on the shift rods, but he too pointed out that it was an E-body quirk.  He agreed that it could have been to hold the rods' adjustment in place as they were passed through the transmission support's "tunnel". 

That's all the updates at the moment...

[nascarxx29]

I think my old 440 daytona which had H269 in yellow lettering on the wires .Had the coil wire and boot as mentioned.Might have some pictures .I even seen the shifter rod tape on a friends survivor paperwork documented 69 340 speed AC Vinyl top Fastback Formula S Barracuda

[maxwellwedge]

He also said that all of the original coil wires he's seen had yellow lettering to match the spark plug wires.  He specifically remembered that Chris Sauer's Daytona retained its original coil wire, which had the single red boot and yellow lettering.  That's not to say coil wires never had white lettering, but it was definitely not an exclusive trait - plus, to Vance's knowledge (and mine too, FWIW) the coil wire is no different internally than any other spark plug wire.  More research to do here, but I'm pretty comfortable that the wire on the engine is fine to use.  Question for Jim B... What do the DocTona and DiscoTona have on their coil wires (are they still the originals)?  I haven't checked Jim McCauley's F5 car for that, but you'd think it would be another good one to look at.

Hey Gene,
Doc and Disco... LOL.

Doc still has all of its original plug wires -  2nd quarter of 69 - some still have engine paint on them. Unfortunately 'Ol Doc put the 6-Pack on and put on a generic longer wire for the relocated coil and the original is gone. Disco had early 70's Mopar orange wires so that's a no-go as well. I checked with Frank and Roger and they have seen both white and yellow on the coil wires - so it is not white only. Most of the ones I have had were on Hemi's which may or may not mean anything as a couple were on 440's. I have some white ones here. As Terry McCann once told me, "Me and you have not seen every car ever built". 

Bottom Line - Yellow writing on the coil wire is 100% legal in 48 States and most of Canada 

[hemi68charger]

Wow Geno..
I haven't visited this thread in a while.. Your engine's looking spot on man.............. Things are looking great.................

Troy

[hemigeno]

Thanks, Troy!

Your own engine install is going good I see.      One of these days I'll have a little more progress to show too.

Speaking of which, the rubber manufacturer just told me that the air seal shipment is expected to arrive at David Patik's place on Friday the 23rd.  David may not have enough time to cut everything out, process it and have it shipped to me before my next trip to Vance's on the 30th, but the pieces will be in Michigan very early in February.   

Doc still has all of its original plug wires -  2nd quarter of 69 - some still have engine paint on them.

Jim, dumb question here - should there have been engine paint on the plug wires?  Was it from where the plug wires were installed while the engine paint was still wet?  Just curious...

As Terry McCann once told me, "Me and you have not seen every car ever built". 

Bottom Line - Yellow writing on the coil wire is 100% legal in 48 States and most of Canada 

Very true quote from Terry.  I'm still relieved to know that the white lettering isn't the accepted "standard" on a late-built '69 440-4.  Vance was pretty convinced that yellow lettering is quite normal, but weird stuff happened all the time back then - and that whole mid/late 1969 period was one of the worst for quirks.

[PocketThunder]

286 days till Talladega.. 

[maxwellwedge]

Doc still has all of its original plug wires -  2nd quarter of 69 - some still have engine paint on them.

Jim, dumb question here - should there have been engine paint on the plug wires?  Was it from where the plug wires were installed while the engine paint was still wet?  Just curious...

As Terry McCann once told me, "Me and you have not seen every car ever built". 

Bottom Line - Yellow writing on the coil wire is 100% legal in 48 States and most of Canada 

Very true quote from Terry.  I'm still relieved to know that the white lettering isn't the accepted "standard" on a late-built '69 440-4.  Vance was pretty convinced that yellow lettering is quite normal, but weird stuff happened all the time back then - and that whole mid/late 1969 period was one of the worst for quirks.

Funny thing about the paint on the plug wires - that is usually a Hemi thing. Maybe I can have a close look at the wires and contact points on the engine and figure something out. I'll show you the wires when you guys roll in - we should start a list of questions/show and tell etc. Pack your mink-lined Speedo's - It has dipped pretty darn low a few times up here!     Actually I noticed St. Louis hasn't been very tropical either 

White lettered coil wire vs yellow was random on Hemi's and have been found on a few 440's.

[hemigeno]

Funny thing about the paint on the plug wires - that is usually a Hemi thing. Maybe I can have a close look at the wires and contact points on the engine and figure something out. I'll show you the wires when you guys roll in - we should start a list of questions/show and tell etc. Pack your mink-lined Speedo's - It has dipped pretty darn low a few times up here!     Actually I noticed St. Louis hasn't been very tropical either 

White lettered coil wire vs yellow was random on Hemi's and have been found on a few 440's.

I remembered the engine paint on the plug wires being a hemi detail, as nearly all of the engine assembly work was done at the Marysville plant - including test-firing the engine, IIRC.  Whether or not 440s had their distributors and plug wires installed while the engine paint was still wet, I don't know.  I seem to remember that some of the engine accessories were installed at the final assembly plant (e.g. Hamtramck), but you'd think the 440 engines were already earmarked for which distributor it was to receive by the time it left the Trenton engine assembly plant.  Might be a good question for Frank Badalson sometime.

It could be remnants of something Creative Industries did too, as not much could surprise me from that outfit...     Might be something as simple as the worker adjusting or laying a blanket across the engine that still had wet paint on it?   

Schedule some warm weather next week would you?  The border guards may not let me across since I don't have mink-lined anything much less a Speedo.  Maybe I'm just culturally-deprived, I dunno...   

[69_500]

I gotta admit that I'm actually happy that Gene doesn't have a Speedo, I don't think I"m that close of a friend to know information like that. 

I'm hoping the car is inside something a little warmer than the barn we looked at the 500 in Michigan in then if its that cold up that way. Either that or maybe this time I'll acutally bring a coat. That might be a good idea.

[maxwellwedge]

Worry not lads - The cars are in a warm building and Doc will be on a 2 post lift. Leave the Speedo's at home! 

[69_500]

Seems every trip I make with Gene other than in June/July time of the year its a snow storm. Either that or they have an ice storm. Can't seem to catch many breaks on trips so far.

[hemigeno]

Here's a short update on the status of my car:

The replacement rubber air seals have been delivered/installed, and were described by Vance as "perfect".  They took some effort on David Patik's part to get just the way we wanted them, but in the end I think they're as good as we could ever have hoped.  Vance was also able to refurbish the original fender-to-nosecone seals up to a point that he said they're very close to NOS condition.  That took some effort and time as well, but finding new seals (I've held NOS seals, but they weren't for sale) or making my own "new" set (couldn't find anyone who would splice or fuse new '70 Charger seals to replicate how the original seals were made) proved to be impossible. 

The car has been moved over to the "clean" side of the shop, and is being readied for the paint booth.  They've re-installed the nosecone and are re-blocking most of the body panels to make sure everything is laser straight.

I still haven't had time to resize and re-name the pictures I took on my last stop-off at Vances, but there wasn't a whole lot new to look at anyway.  Mostly axle and brake hardware details, plus a few other assorted components.  I think I was in too much of a hurry to visit maxwellwedge's place to dwell on my stuff anyway...

[69_500]

So Gene the question is, how hard are the rubbers that were installed? 70 or a 90-95? I'm nosey ya know.

[maxwellwedge]

  I think I was in too much of a hurry to visit maxwellwedge's place to dwell on my stuff anyway...

[moparstuart]

so is david going to be making more of the correct nose seals forsale ?

[hemigeno]

so is david going to be making more of the correct nose seals forsale ?

Yes, but I don't know exactly when.  I supplied a rather large roll of rubber stock to David, who definitely has intentions of offering the repro seal sets again.  You'd have to talk with him to find out if the sets are "officially" available or not, and whether or not he'll consider hardening another set in the same fashion he did mine.  I think he was hoping to wait until summer (long story).

So Gene the question is, how hard are the rubbers that were installed? 70 or a 90-95? I'm nosey ya know.

I don't know the exact durometer reading of the material we installed, but the untreated material sample they sent early on tested out at 71-74 depending on the exact place the test was made.  My guess is that the stuff we used was maybe 80-85 on the scale.  Well less than 90+ though.  There's more to the story about why we settled on this particular level of "stiffness", but that's another story for another day.



BTW, nice caption for that picture, Jim...     Here's another random guy that (strangely enough) struck a pose next to the same car

[hemi68charger]

Sweet !!!!!!!

[maxwellwedge]

"BTW, nice caption for that picture, Jim...     Here's another random guy that (strangely enough) struck a pose next to the same car"

Touche - From one "Random Guy" to another! 

[PocketThunder]

"BTW, nice caption for that picture, Jim...     Here's another random guy that (strangely enough) struck a pose next to the same car"

Touche - From one "Random Guy" to another! 

Is the checker floor in the shop just black squares and raw concrete?   

[maxwellwedge]

"BTW, nice caption for that picture, Jim...     Here's another random guy that (strangely enough) struck a pose next to the same car"

Touche - From one "Random Guy" to another! 

Is the checker floor in the shop just black squares and raw concrete?   

Yes and no. It is all white epoxy paint with the black painted over the white - It looks a lot nicer when I take a floor buffer machine to it but everything would need to go outside for hours. Not an option this crappy winter. 

[mauve66]

heck with the polishing just get some RaceDeck pieces