hemigeno's Daytona restoration - a few more tweaks... again!

[hemigeno]

About the only component that didn't look absolutely pristine was the clip that holds the brake pedal switch in place.  Vance thinks that's the same clip as what holds the emergency brake front cable housing to the frame underneath the car.  He's confident he can either clean and replate this one, or find a new clip.  

Vance sourced another reinforcement bracket for the brake booster.  My original was pitted enough that the head markings on the studs were illegible, but this is what they should look like.  Incidentally, he's going to re-paint this bracket, by hanging it and using a diptank just like originally... there are several other components that were painted this way, so it'll be worth the time and effort to get a tank set up.  He'll probably dip as much as he can at the same time for efficiency's sake.

[hemigeno]

While we had the hood up to snatch the battery, I took a couple of shots showing the engine compartment which is empty again.  There will be a fair amount of additional detailing done in this area too, and I'll detail those efforts as they happen.


That's it for an update for now...

[gtx6970]

You sir are a glutton for punishment

but my hats off to ya anyway

[Aero426]

Does the K frame have a date code stamped, and if so, where is it located?

[hemigeno]

Does the K frame have a date code stamped, and if so, where is it located?

Yes, it does have a date code - and it's located right above the mounting location for the brace that runs to the radiator yoke.  It's stamped on the vertical face of the K-frame's top half.  Here's a photo posted earlier in the thread of my car's original date:



Another photo showing the original K-member's date code's location (it's the part that's been sanded clean):



and the replacement K-member's date code location... both read 158 9

You sir are a glutton for punishment

but my hats off to ya anyway

Thanks, Bill - and you're most correct about the glutton for punishment.   

[hemigeno]

On another topic discussed somewhere around here (and for the life of me, I can't find the posts)...  The question was asked about lacquer paint, and wondering when someone would show up with a Daytona showing mismatched paint.  I made the comment that lacquer wasn't available or that's what we would have done on mine.  Brian (1HotDaytona) made mention that lacquer was still available (which is indeed the truth, until the EPA regulates that out of existence too), which got me to thinking... why didn't we paint mine that way?  So, being of the inquisitive nature that I am, I asked Vance that question on Saturday.  Here's how the conversation went...

> Hey Vance, was there a particular reason you didn't use lacquer paint on the car?

> Yeah - because Creative didn't use it.

> Are you sure?  I thought they did?

> They may have used it on some components, but they did not use it on Chris' (Chris Sauer) car, Bill Card's car, Harold Sullivan's cars, or the other original cars I've seen.

> Hmmm.  Was there a reason?

> The advantage of using lacquer is that it dries from the outside inward, whereas enamel dries from the inside out - and as a result, lacquer can be wet sanded not too long after it is sprayed, since it develops a shell.  The disadvantage is that it takes a muuuuch longer time to spray it out and build up the color that would be needed.


Throughout the rest of my visit, Vance would periodically mention something about how he thought there would be no way a lacquer paint job would exhibit the same observable characteristics we almost always see on original cars - like wide overspray patterns, lack of spider cracks in original paint cars, and a few other such traits.  It really got him to thinking about the subject, but he remained adamant that in his mind the only explanation was that the paint was acrylic enamel.

Years ago I seem to remember hearing that you cannot spray lacquer over the top of enamel, which is why the tailpanel (Organisol) was sprayed before the body color and then masked off.  It seems to make sense that enamel is what Creative used on the Daytonas anyway, because of having to go over the top of Hamtramck's paint job in some areas (quarterpanels, roof, cowl, engine compartment, etc.).  I also remember reading that 'Birds used lacquer on their noses and wings, but that's a different situation - and also explains why there's often a noticeable difference in the color between body & nosecone.

Any more thoughts on this subject?

[Charger-Bodie]

Not saying that they used it originally,but lacquer can be sprayed over enamal . It used to happen all the time as the only primer repair shops had back in the days was lacquer. Its far more apt to "react" if its used over enamal. It lifys the enamal if it is soft. Not usually a problem on an oem baked enamal finish. Now if you had a repair done and the shop used enamal for the repair and you wanted to rework in that area you would be at far more risk if that existing repair was not baked.

[held1823]

On another topic discussed somewhere around here (and for the life of me, I can't find the posts)...  The question was asked about lacquer paint, and wondering when someone would show up with a Daytona showing mismatched paint.  I made the comment that lacquer wasn't available or that's what we would have done on mine.

i believe you are referring to this thread...

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,87691.0.html

[hemigeno]

On another topic discussed somewhere around here (and for the life of me, I can't find the posts)...  The question was asked about lacquer paint, and wondering when someone would show up with a Daytona showing mismatched paint.  I made the comment that lacquer wasn't available or that's what we would have done on mine.

i believe you are referring to this thread...

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,87691.0.html

Yep, that's the one... 

I guess Jim/maxwellwedge and Vance can duke it out about what was originally sprayed by Creative.  Based on the lack of spider cracking, I tend to gravitate towards enamel myself - but I'm the furthest thing from an expert when it comes to paint.

[held1823]

dad has long maintained that the body shop manager (at the dealership his daytona came from) told him of the different paint types. apparently the creative-applied paint was peeling off in chunks from around the rear window on dad's b5 car within weeks of picking it up from the dealership. the dealership's painter attributed this problem to creative's lacquer paint not adhering to the factory enamel.

the paint issue was not color specific, as the other daytona here in town at the time also had major paint issues. this f6 car would later become larry b's. the ship list timing doesn't seem to offer any sort of explantion either, as dad's car was #302, while the green one was #94.

[maxwellwedge]

    Draggin' me in huh?

My quick couple of centavo's

Got a couple of original wings that are lacquer....cracking and all.

The factory FSM's even say it is OK to spray lacquer over the acrylic enamel....like Brian mentioned - OK over a baked finish. Did they use acrylic enamel at Creative ever? They may have.....anything to "get it done" was possible over at that place.

[hemigeno]

  Draggin' me in huh?

My quick couple of centavo's

Got a couple of original wings that are lacquer....cracking and all.

The factory FSM's even say it is OK to spray lacquer over the acrylic enamel....like Brian mentioned - OK over a baked finish. Did they use acrylic enamel at Creative ever? They may have.....anything to "get it done" was possible over at that place.

Yep, I'm dragging you in!  

I definitely agree about the wings, as mine had cracks in its original paint too - which is part of the reason I am not sure they sprayed lacquer on the body.  I haven't seen the cracking evidence on body panels like you'd expect to see... although that doesn't apply to DiscoTona for obvious reasons    Vance certainly didn't rule out the use of lacquer on components (I was thinking about wings as he and I were discussing the subject), but it was his opinion it didn't get used on bodypanels on the cars he's messed with.  That's obviously far short of every car...

Vance wasn't the one who said that lacquer couldn't be sprayed over enamel, that's my (somewhat suspect) memory.  I still think the factory sprayed out tailpanels first and then body color, but that might have been because the enamel wouldn't have been baked on when the tailpanels were painted.  Both were baked at the same time, I would think.  Makes sense.

Is there any other way to empirically determine what's on (at least some) original paint cars?  There could have been different procedures followed from car to car, as the conversion process evolved.  I started to say "perfected" there rather than "evolved", but I'm not sure Creative ever perfected much when it came to the conversion process - as confirmed by held1823's comments about his family's Daytona...  

[maxwellwedge]

Tail panels, hood performance paint package - painted bumble-bee stripes etc. were painted first mainly because it was easier to mask than the other way around.

I know Roger has done a bunch of Daytona's and Frank has definitely seen a ton of them and they always said that it seems the noses etc. were lacquer. Beyond that - none of mine were original paint so I cant weigh-in with my own examples....I've always gone by what they have said......For better or worse - lol

[Mopar John]

     Holy crap Gene I'm calling this a re-restoration! You guys have taken it back apart!
Thanks for the update! 
MJ

[jonw29]

Gene this is just my  .It will NEVER be enough.I just finished my car but I would like to take it to the next level.

[hemigeno]

Tail panels, hood performance paint package - painted bumble-bee stripes etc. were painted first mainly because it was easier to mask than the other way around.

True enough.

I know Roger has done a bunch of Daytona's and Frank has definitely seen a ton of them and they always said that it seems the noses etc. were lacquer. Beyond that - none of mine were original paint so I cant weigh-in with my own examples....I've always gone by what they have said......For better or worse - lol

I respect both of those guys' opinions greatly, and I'm open to correction on this subject - but my inclination is towards the use of enamel on the body panels.  What other tell-tale indicators of lacquer paint would be present on an original-paint car?

Gene this is just my  .It will NEVER be enough.I just finished my car but I would like to take it to the next level.

You're probably correct, but I'll have fun getting it as far enough along as I can.  Well, "fun" might be a bit of a stretch, but it's the direction I chose anyway...

     Holy crap Gene I'm calling this a re-restoration! You guys have taken it back apart!
Thanks for the update! 
MJ

Hi John, I just sent you an email.  Hope you and Danny have fun this weekend, as those are awesome kinds of visits to make.  I wish I'd have taken the chance and called you up last week, as it would have been great to check out your red Daytona and see the blue one again.  One of these days...

[Hemi Runner]

I just spent the last five evenings reading all the way through this thread. What an incredible job restoring this car and also an incredible task of research and continuous improvement. I can only dream of pulling something like this off. Very impressive. 

[bsakal]

Somehouw I missed this thread from the beginning. Beautiful car Geno. Good luck! 

[resq302]

Gene,

Amazing work you are doing (again).  I have just one thing to say..... you better have a correct green oil filter on there!   

[70gtx440dana]

Gene.....I stopped in at Vance's on Thursday and was surprised to see your car somewhat disassembled again. Vance explained to me all of the udpates you were working on. The last several posts have been even more informative in regard to the ultimate goal of the updates. It is amazing the amount of detail that has gone into this restoration. I have learned quite a bit from following this thread and the many visits to Vances shop while your car has been there. Hopefully, my 70 Charger will start moving along quickly once these next updates are completed!!!    Joe

[hemigeno]

I just spent the last five evenings reading all the way through this thread. What an incredible job restoring this car and also an incredible task of research and continuous improvement. I can only dream of pulling something like this off. Very impressive.  

Somehouw I missed this thread from the beginning. Beautiful car Geno. Good luck!  

Thanks, guys - and welcome to my personal World of Pain...  

Gene,

Amazing work you are doing (again).  I have just one thing to say..... you better have a correct green oil filter on there!  

Thanks, Brian - and I do have a couple of correct oil filters already sitting on the shelf, plus one or two oddballs I could use if I wanted to a bit.  I also have my bases covered if the consensus opinion is that the filters should have overspray on them, as I have two filters already "over"sprayed with engine-color paint.  There are two schools of thought on that topic... one is that the engine assembly plant screwed the filters in place and then painted leaving a fair amount of overspray on the filter housing; the other position is that they only placed a cap over the filter mount's threads and THEN painted the engine, installing the (no-overspray) filter later.  Vance is of the opinion, based on his observations of original-paint oil pumps from that era, that the filters were in place before paint rather than a cap.  Others point to a couple of photos showing engines being installed in chassis (or on test stands, which to me is a non-sequitur) and have no-overspray filters.  However, Paul Jacobs has seen a very low mileage '69 383 engine with its original filter still in place, and it had engine paint on it.  This is one of those topics that no matter what I do, I'll be wrong in someone's eyes.  Oh well.  

Gene.....I stopped in at Vance's on Thursday and was surprised to see your car somewhat disassembled again. Vance explained to me all of the udpates you were working on. The last several posts have been even more informative in regard to the ultimate goal of the updates. It is amazing the amount of detail that has gone into this restoration. I have learned quite a bit from following this thread and the many visits to Vances shop while your car has been there. Hopefully, my 70 Charger will start moving along quickly once these next updates are completed!!!    Joe

Hi Joe, I'm sorry that my OCD complex is pushing your project's schedule back a little bit.  My guess is Vance is looking forward to working on someone else's car for a change.  You have a unique opportunity to see some behind-the-scenes work, by checking out the progress in person.  My photograpy and narrative skills don't do the level of detail justice - and some of those details are covered up once everything is assembled.

BTW, your '70 will be an awesome ride when it's done, and I'm sure Vance will do a bang-up job on the sheet metal and paint for you.  He's probably itching to get his hands on a certain FE5 car too...

[FJ5WING]

WOW Gene...

youre sure a lot more of a perfectionist than I ever will be......

Im in the "filter should be painted camp" but who am I? definetly not someone to lean on for the type of work youre doing!

[hemigeno]

youre sure a lot more of a perfectionist than I ever will be......

Perfectionism's not necessarily a good thing, believe me - especially if you'd like to actually finish a project   

Im in the "filter should be painted camp" but who am I? definetly not someone to lean on for the type of work youre doing!

Well, at least I wouldn't be condemned by absolutely everyone! 

[tan top]

    amazing attention to factory / creatives handy work    awesome stuff Geno 

[resq302]

WOW Gene...

youre sure a lot more of a perfectionist than I ever will be......

Im in the "filter should be painted camp" but who am I? definetly not someone to lean on for the type of work youre doing!

Maybe it depended on what plant the engine was painted at?  Kinda like the striker latch for the trunk on our cars?  Some plants painted the entire thing where others removed it installed a prop rod and then replaced the cad plated striker latch.