hemigeno's Daytona restoration - a few more tweaks... again!

[hemigeno]

Doug,

I spent quite a bit of time going over this with Vance when I dropped that clip off, since that's certainly a big issue.  Last thing either of us wanted was to have the car crabwalking down the highway.

He said he would be working elbow-to-elbow with his guys on that portion of the metalwork, even though he said his son has been working around and with frame straightening equipment for 17 years.  His son could probably have handled it all by himself, but Vance wanted to make extra sure that things were done as well as they possibly could be.  One very nice thing about pulling the complete rear subframe out of that clip is that all the crossmembers, etc. retain their factory welds from the initial installation, which should really help keep things squared up.  There are also two bolts near the front of the framerails that both locate and draw up the whole frame section to the rear pan.  They could then get everything located, positioned, and welded up - plus they can double-check things using the factory locating dimensions as they went.  Vance said that replacing the whole rear subframe was not only easier, but would give a better end result than if we were replacing just the framerails.  I can definitely believe that.

I talked with Vance last Friday, and he said they had worked on getting that replacement taken care of for nearly 3 days, but that it was in there "right".  Apart from verifying all the proper dimensions, etc., the proof will be when it can be checked for a 4-wheel alignment, which is a ways down the road.

Point very well taken though...

[Charger_Fan]

Holy crap, that B3 back end looks almost perfect! Even the 1/4's look good from here...even to the point of being an easy resto, maybe.
At least it's good stuff is going to a very worthy cause.

Do you wanna sell that tail panel if it doesn't get used?

Grant, you are exactly right, there's a lot of useable sheet metal on that clip.  The trunk was toast, and there was a little rust around the sail panel/back glass area, but it wasn't too bad overall.  I'd be in trouble if I started selling parts off of it though... When I bought this Daytona, my agreement with Dave H. (who owned the Daytona and this clip both) was that I would use the quarters off of that clip for the Daytona.  When Vance decided to just patch in the Daytona's quarters, that meant I didn't need the ones off the clip.  As it turns out, I needed the framerails instead - so I "swapped" getting the quarterpanels from that clip for its framerails.  The rest of it belongs to Dave H., and I'd be in deep dutch if I tried to help ya out. 

Not a problem, thanks anyway, Gene.

[69_500]

Looks like they have done quite a bit of work since I went up there. I made you a CD of the photo's Gene. I took out all of the duplicates, and the ones where the codes weren't readable. So your down to 248 photo's of your car. You can blow them up to 20x30 if you wish and see all the details you want.

I'll try to get it mailed off to you before this weekend, but I won't make a promise as I'm trying to get evrything together to go to Vegas.

[hemigeno]

WooHoo!!!

Beggars can't be choosers, so don't worry about any deadlines getting it mailed out to me.  Hopefully you still have my mailing addy from the DVD's I got from you a while back.  If not, let me know.

Thanks again!  Hmmm... 248 pics...  Did you happen to get one of the stamping on the right front corner of the hood?  I didn't even know the hoods were stamped here, but sure as shootin', you can make out a faint '69 stamping.  One more infernal date code I didn't know existed until everything was disassembled and stripped.

[65post]

Some nice work going on there hemigeno.Can`t wait to see the paint start flying. .From my experience in restoring old and not so old cars ( 22 years and still learning ) I have found that a car with rust problems you can sandblast everything you see on the outside and cut out the bad spots and weld in new metal and all is well for the short term.... but there is still rust on the back side of the panels and in the pinch welds where you cannot see and rust never sleeps.The one good thing about dipping is that if the metal is thin anywhere you will see the holes now instead of later.Not saying that if a car is not dipped it is not going to last.It all depends on the amount of rust and where it is located.On the cars we have done that do not get dipped we make it a point to spray rust check in every seam and in every nook and cranny before they leave the shop.Oil is the only thing that keeps rust at bay....Terry

[daytonalo]

Oil is a body shops worst enemy

[Aero426]

Add silicone to that.  That's probably worse than oil as it atomizes and floats places where you never thought it would go.

I think media blasting is still the best way to go.   It doesn't get the inside of the rails, but with dipping, you never know if they got all the acid out, or if it's sitting there in the seams cooking away.  I had a problem with my Superbird nose after being dipped.    I also did a NOS Superbird hood years ago that had flash rust all over it, and had it ecoated.  That came out nice.   

As far as patching goes and thin metal,  you can still cut out to good steel, weld the patch, but the key is to get it sealed up.  You're banking on a perfect weld, and getting it sealed up and corrosion protected on the back side.    Any time you are patching, there are more opportunities for problems down the road.   Obviously these guys are competent in their abilities.

Gene, was the decision to repair the quarters versus replace panels based on maintaining more integrity of the unibody while the rear frame rail work was done, or other reasoning?     Did they feel they could give you as good a repair versus the cost and labor of putting quarters on it? 

[Magnumcharger]

Nice job.

[hemigeno]

I think media blasting is still the best way to go.   It doesn't get the inside of the rails, but with dipping, you never know if they got all the acid out, or if it's sitting there in the seams cooking away. 

Pretty much what Vance had said about dipping also.

I'm no expert when it comes to these sorts of things - but on the surface it seems like if they dip it in acid/chemical, couldn't they dip it in neutralizer too?  Even if it took several progressively milder tanks to get to the point that there was no more corrosive material left (acid or base), that would seem to eliminate the objections that I've heard to the process.  Some of the tech articles I've read show them just hosing off the stripped metal, and I can see where that wouldn't do near as good a job of rinsing out everywhere the acid/chemicals had gotten to.  Vance said he might dip the cars he works on if they could ever find a better way to eliminate seeping.

Gene, was the decision to repair the quarters versus replace panels based on maintaining more integrity of the unibody while the rear frame rail work was done, or other reasoning?     Did they feel they could give you as good a repair versus the cost and labor of putting quarters on it? 

We didn't do a pro/con analysis or anything.  When I dropped the car off in November, I told Vance up front that I had access to good quarterpanels (thinking of the ones on that B3 rear clip).  He said to hold off on bringing them up, as he wanted to see what was there when they got the car back from the media blaster.  When I did hear back from him, he said that there was enough good metal left - especially on the right side - that it didn't make sense to yank the quarters off.  My guess is that the left side was borderline, but since they could easily save the right side it probably made sense to keep the left side too and just patch it back.  Working around the rear window plug would HAVE to complicate things considerably on a quarterpanel replacement for a 500/Daytona.

Either way, it was Vance's call to make.  I'm really glad it worked out like it did, since I would have hated to yank just one quarter off of that rear clip.  That would have left Dave H. with only one useable quarterpanel for his other projects.

Under the circumstances, I would actually prefer to keep &patch as many original body panels as possible.  Some things were just too far gone to save, but that's alright too.  If the car had been rust free, chances are I would never have had the opportunity to purchase it - since Dave H. would have really preferred to keep this 4-speed car over his F6 Auto Daytona.  The 4-speed car he decided to sell is (by far) a tougher restoration project, which is why it went and the other stayed.  I'm just glad he was willing to sell me the car in the first place!

[hemigeno]

Great minds think alike......
Batman on my Ram, since 2003.

Nice touch!     I can't take credit for the idea though - the pic I posted was from a car in Vance's shop, but I thought it was pretty cool. 

[Troy]

I think media blasting is still the best way to go.   It doesn't get the inside of the rails, but with dipping, you never know if they got all the acid out, or if it's sitting there in the seams cooking away. 

Pretty much what Vance had said about dipping also.

I'm no expert when it comes to these sorts of things - but on the surface it seems like if they dip it in acid/chemical, couldn't they dip it in neutralizer too?  Even if it took several progressively milder tanks to get to the point that there was no more corrosive material left (acid or base), that would seem to eliminate the objections that I've heard to the process.  Some of the tech articles I've read show them just hosing off the stripped metal, and I can see where that wouldn't do near as good a job of rinsing out everywhere the acid/chemicals had gotten to.  Vance said he might dip the cars he works on if they could ever find a better way to eliminate seeping.

I was always under the impression that they could "bake" the cars after the acid dip which would evaporate any of the chemicals left behind. Also, an e-coat afterwards would be the only way I would ever consider it. My problem is finding anyone close who can/will do those steps. The local dipper just dunks it and hands it back. The local soda blasting place doesn't neutralize or prime the car afterwards either. The local plastic media blaster primes the car/parts immediately. Guess which one I'd rather use?

Troy

[daytonalo]

walnut shells ??

[hemigeno]

I think part of the problem with dippers is what Troy alluded to - some just want to dunk, rinse & return.  That probably gives other shops that may have a much better handle on what needs to be done a bad rap.  Using an oven sounds like it would work, although there couldn't be any rubber seals/bushings, etc.  left on the car.  I can just imagine how much the EPA would like the bake oven's return air emissions with all that vaporized acid too     Course they probably aren't too fond of the whole process in the first place.

[Troy]

walnut shells ??

Walnut shells leave oil all over the car.

Gene, you can't dip cars at all in places like California - of course I'm surprised you're still allowed to use paint, bleach or deodorant there. Hair gel is ok though.

Troy

[Ghoste]

And silicone.

[69_500]

Gene I looked through all the photo's, and no I didn't get a shot of those codes on the hood. As a matter of fact I didn't get but 3 or 4 shots of the hood at all. As it was off in the corner, and a little difficult to get at the day I was there.

[GeneralLeeTESH]

Did you have the car dipped-or just Media blasted ?

[hemigeno]

Just media blasted, due to the preferences of the restoration shop I'm using.

[hemigeno]

OK, so I got a few more answers on the approach they have and will take on putting the car back together and rust remediation steps.

Vance said that the "new" frame did fit perfectly, and they even mounted the rear bumper before finally welding things in to make sure that even it fits right.  They had it on the frame rack, with all the measuring equipment (hanging gauges?) to make sure that everything is arrow straight.  He said that in all honestly, the car's frame is probably in there straighter than it was from the factory.

They had a tough time getting one of the repro rear valance corners to fit properly, so they ended up rebuilding one of my old corners and reusing it rather than using both repro corners.  I've heard for years that those repro corners were really difficult to get fitted, and that apparently hasn't changed.

I asked about how they handled rust in the areas that are leaded up and prone to rust, such as the seam near the windshield channel.  He said that they usually end up melting out all the lead and welding up that area since they are terribly prone to crack there.  They also scrutinize all the leaded seams, for evidence of ANY lumps or bubbling which would indicate a developing rust problem.  If they can, they leave as many of the factory leaded seams alone (including the window plug), but if it needs to be addressed, they dig it out and fix it right.  Once they get all the welding work done, they will end up sand/media blasting the whole car again to get rid of all the moisture/oils from the metal before primering everything.  That is maybe a week or two away, since there are a whole lot of welds that need to be ground and finished to eliminate the visible evidence of the patchwork.

As it stands now, I plan on being back in Vance's shop on the 14th of this month.  Anyone who wants to drop by is more than welcome to do so.  Vance is sending me a couple of picture CD's, so I'll have an update maybe later this week.

[WINGR]

 Hi Geno, it sounds like she's moving along pretty good. I'm sure each step is more and more exciting for you. I'll have to check my schedule for the 14th and see if there is any way I can make it out there. Thanks again for your help in getting ahold of Danny. Talk to you later, take it easy.

Steve

[hemigeno]

Steve, it'd be great if you can make it on the 14th.  Unless things change, I'll be there about 8-8:30am and stay until around lunchtime.  Of course, I've had intentions before of heading out after only a few hours, and ended up spending 8+ hours there   

I do have to make it to Waterloo, IA that night (6+ hour drive), so I'll be leaving before dark if nothing else.

Geno

[69_500]

Ah return trip up on April 14th? Darn it, can't make that one, I'll be in Bakersfield California.

[hemigeno]

Well, I have another installment of progress pictures of my car from this past Saturday.  I didn't get to spend too much time actually talking with Vance, but that's another story.  It's coming along, but this is probably one of the slower periods for visible progress.  They are pretty much just working on the undercarriage to fill in and smooth out all the pitted metal.  Lots of tedious detail work, but what they have completed is really smoothed out.

[hemigeno]

More pics of the trunk area

[hemigeno]

Some closeups of the rear window channel and the serrated bracket that holds the headliner material.  Both the right and left side serrated brackets have broken tabs, for whatever reason.  They'll spot weld the brackets into place before long.