Wikipedia Charger Errors: Should We Edit?

[Brock Samson]

                             http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodge_Charger_(B-body)

  subjective opinions  include:

" The name is generally associated with a performance model in the Dodge range (designed off the Ford Shelby Cobra Concept);"

                             "In 1964, when the Pontiac GTO started the American muscle car era"

"In the 1970 Nascar season it was the 1970 Charger that tallied up more wins (10) than any other car....including the notorious 69 Dodge Charger Daytonas and Plymouth Superbirds, giving Bobby Isaac the Grand National Championship. Lower sales, higher performance and more options has made the '70 Charger the most collectible of the 2nd generation Chargers."

clunky structure and word usage

I think we should take some time and either edit htis or come up with a totally revised effort.


Anyone else agree?..

[SFRT]

just change it...you where an editor right?

[41husk]

Just leave it, it will be our secret

[WingCharger]

Fix it man! When I was 12 and 13, I got a lot of info from Wikipedia, and it really got me researching into Mopars. It would really help a person who has a interest in these cars, but has noidea where to get info.

[SFRT]

is it true the wing car fender scoops reduce drag 3% ?

[Dodge Don]

                             http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodge_Charger_(B-body)

  "In the 1970 Nascar season it was the 1970 Charger that tallied up more wins (10) than any other car....including the notorious 69 Dodge Charger Daytonas and Plymouth Superbirds, giving Bobby Isaac the Grand National Championship. Lower sales, higher performance and more options has made the '70 Charger the most collectible of the 2nd generation Chargers."

The NASCAR stuff is true. The 70 Charger kicked the Daytona's hindquarters by winning more Nascar races than the aero cars combined. Sorry, but it is in the record books.

[Joshua]

Fix it man! When I was 12 and 13, I got a lot of info from Wikipedia, and it really got me researching into Mopars. It would really help a person who has a interest in these cars, but has noidea where to get info.

Hahaha.....you must be young, Wikipedia ain't been around long....
What in the world did kids do before the internet?

I would think that the fender scoops ADD drag.....they were there for tire clearance......

As for editing Wikipedia......so what? Can't anyone go and edit it back?

[Chris G.]

I think we should take some time and either edit htis or come up with a totally revised effort.

Anyone else agree?..

When you say WE should do something, do you really mean someone else other than YOU?

Let's hear your version of how it should appear. I would love to read it...doubt it will happen, but I would love to read it. 

[Brock Samson]

No, im not an expert but i think between us first, second, third, fourth -  etc. fans - we gotta be able to do justice to the marque. 

[Arthu®]

Fix it man! When I was 12 and 13, I got a lot of info from Wikipedia, and it really got me researching into Mopars. It would really help a person who has a interest in these cars, but has noidea where to get info.

Hahaha.....you must be young, Wikipedia ain't been around long....
What in the world did kids do before the internet?

I would think that the fender scoops ADD drag.....they were there for tire clearance......

As for editing Wikipedia......so what? Can't anyone go and edit it back?

I am no expert on the subject at all, but I would think that the fender scoops are there to release the air that's kept under the fender, reducing the air under the fender and thereby making it more stable at high speed.

Arthur

[Chris G.]

No, im not an expert but i think between us first, second, third, fourth -  etc. fans - we gotta be able to do justice to the marque. 

Well, you specifically quoted this part:
"In the 1970 Nascar season it was the 1970 Charger that tallied up more wins (10) than any other car....including the notorious 69 Dodge Charger Daytonas and Plymouth Superbirds, giving Bobby Isaac the Grand National Championship. Lower sales, higher performance and more options has made the '70 Charger the most collectible of the 2nd generation Chargers."

clunky structure and word usage

Un-Clunk the words (as you say) and let's hear your version...or better yet, do justice to it. 

[TK73]

               
"In 1964, when the Pontiac GTO started the American muscle car era"

What is wrong with this??  It has been generally accepted auto history for decades... or do you mean to do the Marque justice by changing Pontiac history?

[69CoronetRT]

               
"In 1964, when the Pontiac GTO started the American muscle car era"

What is wrong with this??  It has been generally accepted auto history for decades... or do you mean to do the Marque justice by changing Pontiac history?

I'm sorry but it hasn't been generally accepted for decades, except by magazines and Pontiac fans, as there is no finite definition of a 'muscle car'. Until someone defines a muscle car, there can be no 'first' or one car that started it all. There was an evolution to performance cars. 'Muscle cars' just didn't magically appear with the debut of the GTO.

[Brock Samson]

OK, i was just wanting to get folks opinion, I thought perhaps few if any would care, it just seemed we could do better,..

  "I" can't even say '69s are "my" field of expertise, since I have probably forgotten most of what i thought was true.
I'm constantly learning here, today in fact, I received the Shift knob I purchased for the set screw a small part i have been searching for for several years now,.. turns out the set screw is different between '68 and '69, as i found out, as the knob is conciderably different.

That particular Paragraph wasn't particularly "clunky", several others are however.

And TK, some - such as I, feel the 1956 Chrysler 300 with three hundred H.P. or the Plymouth Fury also in '56 was the beginning of the Muscle car. seven years prior to the Pontiac Option package on the Le Mans.

I just think we could do better.  It might take some time and effort, I'd be willing to try.

[69CoronetRT]

No, im not an expert but i think between us first, second, third, fourth -  etc. fans - we gotta be able to do justice to the marque. 

Well, you specifically quoted this part:
"In the 1970 Nascar season it was the 1970 Charger that tallied up more wins (10) than any other car....including the notorious 69 Dodge Charger Daytonas and Plymouth Superbirds, giving Bobby Isaac the Grand National Championship. Lower sales, higher performance and more options has made the '70 Charger the most collectible of the 2nd generation Chargers."

clunky structure and word usage

Un-Clunk the words (as you say) and let's hear your version...or better yet, do justice to it. 

The 1970 Charger tallied more wins (10) during the 1970 NASCAR season than the notorious '69 Dodge Charger Daytonas and '70 Plymouth Superbirds propelling driver Bobby Isacc to the Grand National Championship.

[SFRT]

'9 out of 10 docors agree that driving a 1st,2nd or 3rd generation Dodge Charger increases potency, stamina and regrows hair follicles'

[John_Kunkel]

The claim that the GTO was the first muscle car is based on the belief that the definition of a muscle car is:

A midsized car with a larger than normal engine

The car must be "badged" (save the steeeeenking badges remarks)

The badging is part of a "package"

Since not all agree and nobody can say with certainty what the definition is, the point is moot.

[Brock Samson]

"Despite the Chargers' NASCAR racing success of 1966, sales slipped by half. In 1967 only 15,788 Chargers were sold. The Chargers faced competition from the Trans-Am Series, the Ford Mustang and the just introduced Chevrolet Camaro. Dodge decided that a major redesign was in order, rather than a minor face-lift."
  that hardly explains what actually happened.. 

neither does this:

"It was clear after the sales drop of the 1967 Charger that a restyle was in order. Dodge was going to restyle their entire B-body lineup for 1968 and decided that it was time to separate the Coronet and Charger models even further. "

"The SE added leather inserts to the front seats only, chrome rocker moldings, a wood grain steering wheel and wood grain inserts on the instrument panel."

"The Charger 500 had 500 made but only 392 were bought for street use. The rest were bought by racers and gutted, stripped, modified and repainted. 67 Charger 500s were 426 Hemis and 27 were 4-Speeds, 40 were Torqueflites"
are these numbers correct?..   

"The Charger Daytona's wing also helped out in an unintended way, by giving the car directional stability as well.:
I read the wing supports were purposly designed to add directional stability by being wing shaped...

   This entire paragraph is misleading:
"The Charger Daytona introduced to the public had a fiberglass nose without real headlamps and a wing without streamlined fairings. The media and public loved the car, but were mystified by the reverse scoops on the front fenders. The PR representatives claimed it was for tire clearance. Actually, they reduced drag 3%."

well the press intro car did but the nose was metal and the wing was a production wing, but the paragraph reads like the DAYTONA didn't have working headlights or a metal nose...
No mention of the A-pillar farings in  either the 500 or DAYTONA discriptions...






 
     

[pettyfan43]

No, im not an expert but i think between us first, second, third, fourth -  etc. fans - we gotta be able to do justice to the marque. 

Well, you specifically quoted this part:
"In the 1970 Nascar season it was the 1970 Charger that tallied up more wins (10) than any other car....including the notorious 69 Dodge Charger Daytonas and Plymouth Superbirds, giving Bobby Isaac the Grand National Championship. Lower sales, higher performance and more options has made the '70 Charger the most collectible of the 2nd generation Chargers."

clunky structure and word usage

Un-Clunk the words (as you say) and let's hear your version...or better yet, do justice to it. 

The 1970 Charger tallied more wins (10) during the 1970 NASCAR season than the notorious '69 Dodge Charger Daytonas and '70 Plymouth Superbirds propelling driver Bobby Isacc to the Grand National Championship.

Bobby Isaac raced the 70 Charger as well as the Charger 500.  The car that actually won the most races between 69 and 70 was the Charger 500.
Most of the races you see credited to the "69 Dodge" were the 500.

The little car that couldn't, actually DID.

[BigRed66]

I would absolutely edit it if there are any discrepancies or untruths. That's the whole point of Wikipedia.

I edit shit in there all the time if I see something.

Because I know it all, I feel it is my duty to impart said wisdom on the uneducated, fat-fingered, slovenly, unwashed masses. 

Change it.

[BigRed66]

             

[69_500]

"The Charger 500 had 500 made but only 392 were bought for street use. The rest were bought by racers and gutted, stripped, modified and repainted. 67 Charger 500s were 426 Hemis and 27 were 4-Speeds, 40 were Torqueflites"
are these numbers correct?..   

Those numbers are partially correct or should I say accepted. 392 is the supposed production figure. But in no way shape or form were the rest of the 108 used for racing. I can't confirm how many HEMI 500's there are, but I know for sure that there are at least 83 HEMI 500's, the number I've always heard is that there were 112 total produced.

[SFRT]

I was thinking about that musclecar definition....

I think:

produced between 1965-1974
American Brand ( or its foriegn subsidiary, like in Australia) and 'American feeling'...no European cars !
2 door
mid to full size
V-8 engine
'high performance' factory features and styling emphasis on 'performance' not 'comfort'
marketed to young men
used in some sort of motorsports like track or drag racing by 'professional' drivers as part of the marketing of the line.

[Ghoste]

I'm still trying to figure out how Wikipedia became such a generally accepted and reliable source of information.

[G-man]

As far as I know, the 1963 Corvette Stingray is definatelly a muscle car. So 1964 is already out the window. I never look at tha encyclopedia cause u get funny numbers all the time.

In general... its a piece of metal with wheels under it, whocares whether theres 50 or 100 hemis etc etc. Better things to spend your time on. 

[WingCharger]

I was thinking about that musclecar definition....

I think:

produced between 1965-1974
American Brand ( or its foriegn subsidiary, like in Australia) and 'American feeling'...no European cars !
2 door
mid to full size
V-8 engine
'high performance' factory features and styling emphasis on 'performance' not 'comfort'
marketed to young men
used in some sort of motorsports like track or drag racing by 'professional' drivers as part of the marketing of the line.

You need to extend the date earlier. What about the Super Stock Max Wedge Factory Flyers in 1962-1963. Then the early street Hemi in 1964?

[BrianShaughnessy]

Obviously the page was written by a fan of the '70's... ie: Daytona clone hood and fender donor - and is entirely biased that way. 

Here's a page of the 1970 season with the winners, etc.   I''m quoting it but the text comes out screwy... click the link if you can't understand it.
http://www.teamterrier.com/RaceWinners/1970.html

1970 Grand National Race Winners
Race # Race Location Winner
1 Motor Trend 500 Riverside  CA A. J. Foyt
2   Daytona Beach  FL Cale Yarborough
3   Daytona Beach  FL Charlie Glotzbach
4 Daytona 500 Daytona Beach  FL Pete Hamilton
5 Richmond 500 Richmond  VA James Hylton
6 Carolina 500 Rockingham  NC Richard Petty
7 Savanna 200 Savanna  GA Richard Petty
8 Atlanta 500 Hampton  GA Bobby Allison
9 Southeastern 500 Bristol  TN Donnie Allison
10 Alabama 500 Talladega  AL Pete Hamilton
11 Gwyn Staley Memorial N Wilkesboro  NC Richard Petty
12 Columbia 200 Columbia  SC Richard Petty
13 Rebel 400 Darlington  SC David Pearson
14 Beltsville 300 Beltsville  MD Bobby Isaac
15 Tidewater 300 Hampton  VA Bobby Isaac
16 World 300 Concord  NC Donnie Allison
17 Maryville 200 Maryville TN Bobby Isaac
18 Virginia 500 Martinsville  VA Bobby Isaac
19 Motor State 400 Brooklyn  MI Cale Yarborough
20 Falstaff 400 Riverside  CA Richard Petty
21 Hickory 276 Hickory  NC Bobby Isaac
22 Kingsport 100 Kingsport  TN Richard Petty
23 Greenville 200 Greenville  SC Bobby Isaac
24 Firecracker 400 Daytona Beach FL Donnie Allison
25 Albany-Saratoga 250 Malta  NY Richard Petty
26 Thompson 200 Thompson  CT Bobby Isaac
27 Schaefer 300 Trenton  NJ Richard Petty
28 Volunteer 500 Bristol  TN Bobby Allison
29 E Tennessee 200 Maryville  TN Richard Petty
30 Nashville 420 Nashville  TN Bobby Isaac
31 Dixie 500 Hampton  GA Richard Petty
32 Sandlapper 200 Columbia  SC Bobby Isaac
33 W Virginia 300 Ona  WV Richard Petty
34 Yankee 400 Brooklyn  MI Charles Glotzbach
35 Talladega 500 Talladega  AL Pete Hamilton
36 Myers Brothers  Winston-Salem NC Richard Petty
37 Halifax Co. 100 S Boston  VA Richard Petty
38 Southern 500 Darlington  SC Buddy Baker
39 Buddy Shuman Mem. Hickory  NC Bobby Isaac
40 Capitol City 500 Richmond  VA Richard Petty
41 Mason-Dixon 300 Dover  DE Richard Petty
42 Home State 200 Raleigh  NC Richard Petty
43 Wilkes 400 N Wilkesboro  NC Bobby Isaac
44 National 500 Concord  NC LeeRoy Yarbrough
45 Old Dominion 500 Martinsville  VA Richard Petty
46 Georgia 500 Macon  GA Richard Petty
47 American 500 Rockingham  NC Cale Yarborough
48 Tidewater 300 Hampton  GA Bobby Allison

If you look and notice... MOST of the season is short tracks - some are still dirt - not superspeedways like Daytona and Talladega.     The Daytona's and Superbirds were used on the big tracks but they weren't even used on short tracks  - although I've seen video of Petty's Superbird winning at Riverside  (road course).   

I'm sure several 68 and 69 race cars were remade into 70's as that's usuallly what happens with factory sponsorship.   Same stuff goes on today...  although it's probably just changing fake headlight and tailight decals anymore.

So the claim of 10 wins for the 70 in 70 may be technically correct...  but most everybody knows 1970 Champion Bobby Isaac as driving the #71 69 Daytona 

[Dodge Don]

If it was written by a 70 fan I wish they'd have made the 70 section larger 

Never heard of Plum Crazy FC7 referred to as Statutory Grape before 

Bobby Isaac won 8 races with a 70 Charger and 3 with a 500.....none with the Daytona. Netting him the 1970 championship.

All in, the 70 Charger won 10 races in 1970 season....the Daytonas won 4 and the 500s won 3.


The whole Wiki thing is full of biased opinions with a few facts here and there.

[Khyron]

The claim that the GTO was the first muscle car is based on the belief that the definition of a muscle car is:

A midsized car with a larger than normal engine

The car must be "badged" (save the steeeeenking badges remarks)

The badging is part of a "package"

Since not all agree and nobody can say with certainty what the definition is, the point is moot.

Personally I agree that the GTO was the first. for many of those reasons.

[moparstuart]

The claim that the GTO was the first muscle car is based on the belief that the definition of a muscle car is:

A midsized car with a larger than normal engine

The car must be "badged" (save the steeeeenking badges remarks)

The badging is part of a "package"

Since not all agree and nobody can say with certainty what the definition is, the point is moot.

Personally I agree that the GTO was the first. for many of those reasons.

55 chrysler 300 was the first muscle car in my book , and hemi powered

[Chris G.]

You will always have the debate about what the first muscle car was. General consensus is that it was the GTO.

Same goes for most everything. I mean who is truly the King of Rock-n-Roll? Elvis? The Beatles? Chuck Berry? The Rolling Stones? Night Ranger? 

[moparstuart]

You will always have the debate about what the first muscle car was. General consensus is that it was the GTO.

Same goes for most everything. I mean who is truly the King of Rock-n-Roll? Elvis? The Beatles? Chuck Berry? The Rolling Stones? Night Ranger? 

I think for sure we can rule out night ranger 

[BigRed66]

http://musclecars.howstuffworks.com/muscle-car-information/how-muscle-cars-work1.htm

Thought this was interesting...since I'm at home and not at work (where I usually patrol these waters from, sans link access)

Being a Mopar guy, I get that the '64 GTO is considered by "the masses" to be the first "muscle car", but I have always thought of the 1955 Chrysler 300 first...that's just me...

[Kevin68N71]

You guys are getting way too snarky with this stuff.  This happens with EVERY gathering of enthusiasts.  The worst are the AMC guys.  Get a group of them together sometime and drop in something like "the AMX is really just a shortened Javelin" and watch the arguments go to practically violent.

Let's face it.  We are all subject to facts AS WE KNOW THEM.  Mopars get especially murky.  The only facts you can be absolute about is what came on YOUR car when YOU bought it factory.  Production figures should be absolute, but how many exceptions have we found?  We have seen special order paint.  Options that don't appear on the tag.  Engines that should not be there.   Every one of us has most of our facts from someone ELSE we have read.  How many of you had had arguments with a fellow enthusiast who absolutely told you that Chrysler NEVER put a hemi in a four door?

As far as, when did the musclecar era begin, that is a matter of debate.  And yes, pretty much the majority of people agree that was the GTO.  If you don't like that, well I don't know what to say, you are pushing on a rope.  I have a library of books from prominent authors that make that claim; you can make the counter claim that they are wrong.  Prior to the GTO, most of the big engines went into big cars.  Yes there were always exceptions.  Hell, you could claim an old Duesenberg COUPE with the big supercharged engine was proof of an early "musclecar". 

It gets to be pretty much academic after a while.

Now, concerning the original topic.  Wikipedia is trash.  Yes, there are some good people that have taken some time to try to put in good information.  But anyone can write it (yes, I know you can say the same about a book, but at least there is some editorial oversight with a book).  The very idea of a community encyclopedia to me is disconcerting.  In my mind, an encyclopedia is something put together by professional researchers and culled from reliable and consistent source material.  Not something written as fact by enthusiasts of a particular subject.

This is why Wikipedia as reference material is not allowed in most places of higher learning. My son's JUNIOR high does not allow its use.  Yet everyone of us has read it, chiefly because it pops up first from a search engine.

I would not waste my time "correcting" it.  First, your corrections may not be exact, and there are always the "wiki lifers" who do nothing but change "their" article back as soon as someone edits it.   My advice, start your own webpage.  They're free and you can voice your thoughts and opinions any damn way you choose!

[moparstuart]

http://musclecars.howstuffworks.com/muscle-car-information/how-muscle-cars-work1.htm

Thought this was interesting...since I'm at home and not at work (where I usually patrol these waters from, sans link access)

Being a Mopar guy, I get that the '64 GTO is considered by "the masses" to be the first "muscle car", but I have always thought of the 1955 Chrysler 300 first...that's just me...

[Brock Samson]

Thank you Kevin. I've heard about "Wikipedia Lifers" before. Maybe we could have a more definitive history of the Charger here. 

I remember hearing of the Chrysler 300 going 120 miles an hour in the very early '60 on my way to school in a friend's Dad's car. must have been just about the time the GTO was comming out or slightly before. 1963 or thereabouts.

Thanks for all your comments guys. I'll try a couple small revisions on wiki and see how that goes.
No need to reinvent the wheel.

[SFRT]

I always felt that Corvettes where 'sports cars' not muscle cars.

[Brock Samson]

 
on a side note:

there's..
Sports cars generaly accepted as designed having only room for two persons.
Pony Cars being sporty cars baised on Compacts.
Muscle Cars being Intermediates.

Personal Luxury Cars like the Thunderbird, Riv. and what have you can "sometimes" be included in the muscle car Catagory
such as the 1970 Monte Carlo SS 454.
and some Full Size cars such as the 1965 Pontiac 2+2 or 1970 Hurst 300 or the '63 Galaxey 500 XL.
that sound about right?..

It seems to me the charger fit into both the muscle car and personal luxury Catagory depending on the year and options.
could a '68 /6 charger still be concidered a Muscle Car?.. 

[John_Kunkel]

55 chrysler 300 was the first muscle car in my book , and hemi powered

Some could point to documented evidence of that, after a road test of the '55 C-300 noted automotive writer Tom McCahill proclaimed "Detroit has finally produced a car with true muscle". Many attribute that statement as the first use of the word "muscle" to describe a car's performance.

[Kevin68N71]

It seems to me the charger fit into both the muscle car and personal luxury Catagory depending on the year and options.

Yes absolutely.  As a matter of fact, when the whole era was arguably over after 1974, you would see essentially B bodies, and even the Charger itself, live on as "personal luxury" cars.  Charger/Cordoba/Mirada come to mind.  One could argue that even a 60s 318 or an SE edition with the smaller engines might be more of a sporty personal luxury car.  Obviously, the Gran Prix, Torinos, Monte Carlos etc in their later varieties were all personal luxury cars and billed as such.

[WingCharger]

I still believe that the 1962 Wax Wedge Factory Flyers were the first Muscle cars.

[Ghoste]

One could argue that even a 60s 318 or an SE edition with the smaller engines might be more of a sporty personal luxury car.  Obviously, the Gran Prix, Torinos, Monte Carlos etc in their later varieties were all personal luxury cars and billed as such.

It'd be an easy argument Kevin since Charger advertising right from the very beginning marketed the car in those very words.

[Daytona R/T SE]

55 chrysler 300 was the first muscle car in my book , and hemi powered

Some could point to documented evidence of that, after a road test of the '55 C-300 noted automotive writer Tom McCahill proclaimed "Detroit has finally produced a car with true muscle". Many attribute that statement as the first use of the word "muscle" to describe a car's performance.

I'd say that pretty well sums it up

[Ghoste]

Of course isn't it Joe Oldham who boasts that he was the first one to use the term "musclecar" in print and that before him they were known as supercars?   Poor Mopar hatin' Joe.