Would you trade your Charger for a less desirable classic Mopar with a Hemi?

[RD]

somehow this conflict is all about miscommunication.

If you read exactly what ron said, you would not be stating what you are stating.   But alas, it is not the case.

The truth about hemi's are that they are good "race" motors.   They were developed as race motors, detuned, and then put into cars, not vice versa.   The evidence to their greatness in the race arena was stated by ron as well as the hemi's weaknesses in regards to streetability, and I quote:

"The inherent flaws in the design of the cylinder heads with respect to the engine's displacement make it a poor performer in street type applications. Specificly, the port volumes are too big for the size of the engine and this makes it a dog on the street. The hemi works fine as a race engine but you need to wind it up pretty hard for it to work well. Port velocity is where it's at on the street....big heads aren't the hot ticket. A small efficient port will get the job done and make power throughtout the powerband....not just at wide open throttle.

The Hemi is a cool motor, no disputing that. But, it is by design a race motor.....that was detuned for street applications. A hemi is the perfect engine for a roots type blower and the large port volumes help it to breathe and make more power than a comparatively sized wedge. That is the one application where i see a hemi having some advantage over a wedge.

Ron did not say that the hemi "could not" be ran on the street, and he did not say that the hemi "is unable to produce power" on the street.   What he did say was that due to their volumetric efficiency deficiencies from the low to mid rpm ranges they are not as efficient as a wedge motor and their smaller port volumes.

question though, you run slicks to get those 13's?

[Brock Samson]

What's it costing for a HEMI these days?..
was approx $13K when i researched it 10 years ago...

[firefighter3931]

  There is a reason the factory stock appearing cars run hemis instead of 440 six packs, just ask Dave Dudek or hemi Joel,   then tell me who is getting their face kicked in.   If the hemi wasn't up to the task, they would build a "cheaper" 440.     

So, if you want to talk smack about hemis on the street, get your facts straight first.   By the way, my short times are 1.8 with street tires, so the low end runs good as well.

I think my facts are in order....you on the otherhand are living in Disneyworld  

I would hardly classify Joel or Dave's cars as stock hemis...give me a break dude ! Get your head out of the sand, lmao ! I've seen both cars run and am familiar with the builds....big roller cams, stroker cranks etc... This is where the hemi in STOCK HEAD configuration has an advantage....the bigger port volumes help the stroked roller cammed engine breathe. But the shortblock is miles away from stock. Last time i looked, the Vette was king of the FAST class so who's kicking who in the face   ....seen it run at the Nats in Columbus this past august. There's a certain Buick that's been pretty competitive if i'm not mistaken.   I guess you're missing the point....stock hemi's are pedestrian compared to a well designed 440 with a modern aluminum head casting that has been tweaked a little. It's not all about peak power....average hp and torque through the entire operating range is what gets the job done....anyone who builds engines knows that to be true.   

Mp crate 472 hemi : 525hp/540tq Those are the advertised #'s which are generous. I personally know the shop manager where these engines are dynoed and they don't make the "claimed" power numbers   

My little e-headed 446 : 535hp/540tq with a steel crank, stock rods and 6-pack pistons. Oh and it did those #'s with 93ul wintergrade crap fuel.

So Fuchs....when do you wanna line up....i've got 24 beers saying you'll be seeing tail lights   

Ron

[472 R/T SE]

What's it costing for a HEMI these days?..
was approx $13K when i researched it 10 years ago...

I just spent $14,250.00 for the 472.  For the extra hp and torq gain, it was "only" another $700.

[Orange_Crush]

Depends on the car.

66 Hemi Charger?  Sure
old Hemi belvedere post car - Yup
that Hemi coronet 4-door - in a heartbeat
Hemi E-body - Nope

[Shakey]

  There is a reason the factory stock appearing cars run hemis instead of 440 six packs, just ask Dave Dudek or hemi Joel,   then tell me who is getting their face kicked in.   If the hemi wasn't up to the task, they would build a "cheaper" 440.     

So, if you want to talk smack about hemis on the street, get your facts straight first.   By the way, my short times are 1.8 with street tires, so the low end runs good as well.

I think my facts are in order....you on the otherhand are living in Disneyworld  

I would hardly classify Joel or Dave's cars as stock hemis...give me a break dude ! Get your head out of the sand, lmao ! I've seen both cars run and am familiar with the builds....big roller cams, stroker cranks etc... This is where the hemi in STOCK HEAD configuration has an advantage....the bigger port volumes help the stroked roller cammed engine breathe. But the shortblock is miles away from stock. Last time i looked, the Vette was king of the FAST class....seen it run at the Nats in columbus this past august. There's a certain Buick that's been pretty competitive if i'm not mistaken.   I guess you're missing the point....stock hemi's are pedestrian compared to a well designed 440 with a modern aluminum head casting that has been tweaked a little. It's not all about peak power....average hp and torque through the entire operating range is what gets the job done....anyone who builds engines knows that to be true.   

Mp crate 472 hemi : 525hp/540tq Those are the advertised #'s which are generous. I personally know the shop manager where these engines are dynoed and they don't make the "claimed" power numbers   

My little e-headed 446 : 535hp/540tq with a steel crank, stock rods and 6-pack pistons. Oh and it did those #'s with 93ul wintergrade crap fuel.

So Fuchs....when do you wanna line up....i've got 24 beers saying you'll be seeing tail lights 

Ron

Let me know when and if and where this goes down - I would love to see it and would bring 24 beers to share after the race with whomever.

Back in the early 90's I was thinking about buying a muscle car and told a fellow that worked for my Father who had about 10 years on me, that I wanted a HEMI.  He had said "that the when the HEMI engine was ordered in a new car, the car usually came with a good pair of walking shoes".  "They were difficult to keep running and when they were running, they ran too hot."  This again, from the eyes of a mechanic / consumer speaking about a car for simply booting around town.  Do these statements sound true? 

[472 R/T SE]

There was that article in a rag recently where the writer was from back in the 60's, 70's and did road tests on all these cars.  He said the reason Hemi numbers were low was nobody wanted them, flat out.  Something about the motors were NOT designed to be driven on the street.  And that it was not uncommon for it's younger sibling 440-6 to spank them. 

I just purchased a Hemi, and I have no experience driving,let alone riding in one.  I do know I have several friends that have had them for years and they're practically begging me to stay with the single carb. 

Sorry I turned the wrong direction bull.

[69fuchs]

  There is a reason the factory stock appearing cars run hemis instead of 440 six packs, just ask Dave Dudek or hemi Joel,   then tell me who is getting their face kicked in.   If the hemi wasn't up to the task, they would build a "cheaper" 440.      

So, if you want to talk smack about hemis on the street, get your facts straight first.   By the way, my short times are 1.8 with street tires, so the low end runs good as well.

I think my facts are in order....you on the otherhand are living in Disneyworld   

I would hardly classify Joel or Dave's cars as stock hemis...give me a break dude ! Get your head out of the sand, lmao ! I've seen both cars run and am familiar with the builds....big roller cams, stroker cranks etc... This is where the hemi in STOCK HEAD configuration has an advantage....the bigger port volumes help the stroked roller cammed engine breathe. But the shortblock is miles away from stock. Last time i looked, the Vette was king of the FAST class....seen it run at the Nats in columbus this past august. There's a certain Buick that's been pretty competitive if i'm not mistaken.   I guess you're missing the point....stock hemi's are pedestrian compared to a well designed 440 with a modern aluminum head casting that has been tweaked a little. It's not all about peak power....average hp and torque through the entire operating range is what gets the job done....anyone who builds engines knows that to be true.   

Mp crate 472 hemi : 525hp/540tq Those are the advertised #'s which are generous. I personally know the shop manager where these engines are dynoed and they don't make the "claimed" power numbers   

My little e-headed 446 : 535hp/540tq with a steel crank, stock rods and 6-pack pistons. Oh and it did those #'s with 93ul wintergrade crap fuel.

So Fuchs....when do you wanna line up....i've got 24 beers saying you'll be seeing tail lights   

Ron

Compare apples to apples please.   Do I get to run some aftermarket rocker gear, a decent cam, intake and exhaust?
Or am I racing a stock hemi against an engine with aluminum heads, roller rockers, modern cam, intake and carb?   And what part of those heads, cam, rockers, intake, carb, and exhaust came from mopar?   Your engine is modified, and with some updating to my hemi, I would make more power.   As it stands, I am outclassed and I admit it.   

And I race my car like it is on the street,   with hoosier street slicks.   But as much of a dog as it is, I could just run the f70-15 'cause god knows it can't spin the tires due to the large port heads!!!   

And as far as dudek and hemi Joel,   You hit it on the head there.   They are not stock.   They are heavily modified, yet they retain the 559 casting MOPAR cylinder heads, and they are as much of a street car as your edlebrock engine.   Why don't they build 440's?   Firefighter, give me an answer on that one.   I would love to be enlightened!!!!

[1970 FE5 RR]

I would trade my 74 318 2 bbl for a Hemi car.

[bull]

Correct me if I'm wrong but it seems most of the debate surrounding the Hemi's dominance in this thread has focused on drag racing. Wasn't the Hemi designed more for the circle track? If you think about the heavy duty design it's obviously more suited for that, which is why Chrysler built it in the first place. I think in the real world the engine would probably work best in a pickup hauling trailers full of horses if gas wasn't $2.60/gal. Even then it would run comperable to most other similarly sized gas engines. Again, I wasn't really asking for the sake of performance or worth as much as I was for the prestige.

[firefighter3931]

Compare apples to apples please.   Do I get to run some aftermarket rocker gear, a decent cam, intake and exhaust?
Or am I racing a stock hemi against an engine with aluminum heads, roller rockers, modern cam, intake and carb?   And what part of those heads, cam, rockers, intake, carb, and exhaust came from mopar?   Your engine is modified, and with some updating to my hemi, I would make more power.   As it stands, I am outclassed and I admit it.   

And I race my car like it is on the street,   with hoosier street slicks.   But as much of a dog as it is, I could just run the f70-15 'cause god knows it can't spin the tires due to the large port heads!!!   

And as far as dudek and hemi Joel,   You hit it on the head there.   They are not stock.   They are heavily modified, yet they retain the 559 casting MOPAR cylinder heads, and they are as much of a street car as your edlebrock engine.   Why don't they build 440's?   Firefighter, give me an answer on that one.   I would love to be enlightened!!!!

Fuchs, this is all in good fun...i hope you're taking it that way.

Sure, my heads are slightly worked, but, they still don't flow as well as your stock hemi heads....that i can assure you. The roller valvetrain is of no significant advantage....mine made peak power at 6000 rpm. The solid cam i'll give you....that is certainly not stock and i admit it. The induction package is a street dominator and 830cfm double pumper....the street hemi has me beat there. You see it's not about the parts per sey....it's about the COMBINATION of those parts and how well they work together. The reason a 3.75 stroke 440 can outpower a 4.15 stroke hemi is for those reasons, plain and simple.

The stock hemi head is a good head, i'm not disputing that. What i am saying is that it's a poor choice for a 426ci based engine with street friendly compression and hydraulic cam. Even if you cam it up the hemi will still be softer on the bottom end until you build more cubes underneath those big heads....or fill the cylinders with a forced induction package. It's really about balance and maintaining port velocity....the smaller more efficient port just plain works better on the street....


As for the fast class : they don't build wedges because the stock heads don't move enough air....that is true. Remember though that these guys are running roller cams and stroker cranks...so that is where the advantage of the bigger head comes into play. If the hemi's were limited to 3.75 cranks and flat tappet cams there would be less of a discrepancy between the wedge and hemi. I'm pretty sure those FAST cars are running bigger compression numbers than factory to compensate for the long duration cams. This helps to build cylinder pressure at lower engine speeds.

As for the wedge head : Chrysler never really developed it much with all the focus on the race hemi program. The wedge was thought of as mainly a station wagon motor that could be tweaked a bit to perform better in certain applications. A little more cam here, a better exhaust manifold there and maybe a 6-pack....and voila....you had a pretty hard running torque monster. The aftermarket has provided us with an abundant choice of heads and associated components to level the playing field. Building a stout kick ass 440 is fairly easy these days and that brings me to my point :

The original question was would you trade your car for a lesser original hemi car ? The answer still is and allways will be... NO !!! I'm building a bigger wedge in the future that should make another 100hp/100tq over the current engine and it will be a pump gas combo as well. The hemi holds no mystique over me, never has, never will. No way i'd trade the car for an engine that i consider a poor street performer. My opinion of course   

Ron

[firefighter3931]

I think in the real world the engine would probably work best in a pickup hauling trailers full of horses if gas wasn't $2.60/gal.

Even then it would run comperable to most other similarly sized gas engines. Again, I wasn't really asking for the sake of performance or worth as much as I was for the prestige.

Sorry for the hijack Bull :

The hemi would be my last choice for hauling trailers with horses....unless the engine was running above 3500 rpm all the time, then it wouldn't be too fuel efficient. A small port head on a big cubed motor is what you'd want for that type of application.

Prestige can't be seperated from performance....because the prestige is based on the performance by and large, if that makes sense. Too much focus on the name and not enough on the performance helps to create the illusion of a fast/desirable car. The reality isn't allways so pretty when the guy who just popped 100K on a hemicar gets spanked by a mildly built 340 dart....

Ron

[71Charger500]

No because the 383 has tons of potential and you get a lot from adding just a little bit.  Also, when its tuned right, when it rarley is, it can run with a 440.  Plus, with 5 miles to the gallon, I don't think i could handle a hemi, considering my charger is going to be my daily driver.  Only if it was a Challenger or a Cuda.

[RD]

Prestige can't be seperated from performance....because the prestige is based on the performance by and large, if that makes sense. Too much focus on the name and not enough on the performance helps to create the illusion of a fast/desirable car. The reality isn't allways so pretty when the guy who just popped 100K on a hemicar gets spanked by a mildly built 340 dart....

Ron

  I have seen that happen twice!

[kab69440]

No. I would not trade my "ruined, butchered, etc..." 69 for the Isaac Daytona.

[moparguy01]

i probably would. depending on the car. not because its worth more, but i like certain older mopars more than my charger. if i could find a nice 2 door 64 polara i might try to snag it cause i had a 4 door 64 in HS.

[69fuchs]

Bull, I apologize for the hijack as well,  I just get a little warm when people try to cut down a street hemi, without any real life experience, or an experience that was poor.  There are only so many hemis out there, and when some high buck idiot gets a hold of one but can't tune it, word of the black eye travels fast.   


firefighter, no harm, no foul.  Just remember that a 426 hemi is not a 302 boss.  The ports are huge, but contrary to popular belief, they run very well.  My car is not "soft" on the bottom end, and it keeps pulling up top.  The thing I don't understand is why you would want any more low end torque on the street than I already have?  Traction was a problem for me until I got the hoosier quick time pro's, before that I had N50 mickey thompson sportsmans on the car, and off idle to 30 mph was up in smoke, with no control.  I fully understand and agree with you on the "combination" issue.   


I have to wonder, if I started my own post that read  "would you trade your hemi car for a regular charger",  how smart would I look?  I think I will let someone else make that mistake!!!

[6pkrunner]

I had my 1968 coronet R/T hemi from 1973 to 1986 or so. I raced anything that came near me. It was a daily driver for me, except for winter when I used C bodys for transport. I did all my own work on it, including rebuild. So please don't lump me into one of the "don't know" categorys. I know very well what a street hemi will and will not do in stock and slightly modified format. There were four others around during that time so between the 5 of us we pretty well knew what made these things tick.
What upsets me is kids that weren't even born at the time thinking they know it all. These engines were not some super rocket ships that ran 8s off the floor. The were large cold blooded large ported engines that needed a lot of rpm to work. When they got rolling they were poetry. But from a dead stop the torque of a 440 would say goodbye to you. By the top of second you were making back ground.
But if you didn't live with them and only read about them in some nostalgia magazine, well........

[Brock Samson]

What's it costing for a HEMI these days?..
was approx $13K when i researched it 10 years ago...

I just spent $14,250.00 for the 472.   For the extra hp and torq gain, it was "only" another $700.

Thanks, what $ would ya figgure it will take to get it in the car and up and running?..

[ChargerBill]

Bull, you handicapped my response right off the bat. Anything UGLY...probably not. And since beauty is in the eye of the beholder it's a pretty subjective question. I could tell you that I HATE the looks of the 70 Super Bees, and then I'd say,"YES, I'd take a 70 Hemi Super Bee", but that would be lying. I just can't see taking an UGLY Hemi car just for the Hemi, unless I could flip it for a big profit and buy another Charger in better shape...then maybe buy a crate Hemi and have a Hemi Charger... That's cheating, right?

BTW: if you were fishing for,"Yeah, I'd take an '06 Creeder with a Hemi" you aren't going to get a lame answer like that from me... But I know how you feel about the Creeder, so you prolly weren't fishing at all...

[Big Lebowski]

  As a matter of fact, the only car i could trade my '70 six-pack Charger for, is a '70 Hemi Charger project, non console pistol-grip, Dana car, and cash (since mine is finished and CAN smoke the '06 SRT-8 Charger at the 1/4mi.) 

[69fuchs]

I had my 1968 coronet R/T hemi from 1973 to 1986 or so. I raced anything that came near me. It was a daily driver for me, except for winter when I used C bodys for transport. I did all my own work on it, including rebuild. So please don't lump me into one of the "don't know" categorys. I know very well what a street hemi will and will not do in stock and slightly modified format. There were four others around during that time so between the 5 of us we pretty well knew what made these things tick.
What upsets me is kids that weren't even born at the time thinking they know it all. These engines were not some super rocket ships that ran 8s off the floor. The were large cold blooded large ported engines that needed a lot of rpm to work. When they got rolling they were poetry. But from a dead stop the torque of a 440 would say goodbye to you. By the top of second you were making back ground.
But if you didn't live with them and only read about them in some nostalgia magazine, well........

I am to young to have been there.   But my dad was stock eliminator champion in '72,   driver of the year at Amber green dragway in Eau claire, Wi.   My mom drove powderpuff when she was pregnant with me, so I would say I have as much right as anyone to talk cars--I was born into mopars and racing.   It is funny though, my dads 69 charger rt 440 ran in E/SA,   was the fastest car in his class, and he ran 13.00 just like I do.   The difference is, that he had blue print 906 heads, an Isky cam, a ch4b intake, fenderwell headers tuned by sox and martin, a very loose converter, 4.56 gears, and a manual valve body along with 9 inch slicks.   He had 1500 dollars (that is 1970 dollars) in modifications, and the car ran the same ET that mine does now, and mine is stock.   He could have saved 600 bucks by just buying the hemi car to begin with, and not had to modify anything.   

And the guy he beat to win King of the hill for top driver had a 66 hemi plymouth.   (My dad got a 2 second handicap start)   and my dad said that his charger rocked back and forth when that hemi plymouth went by him.   (RED LIGHT)

I've had my hemi for 11 years, my 440 sixpack for 17 years, and there is no way I would replace the hemi with the 440, it is a half second slower!!!!

[firefighter3931]

These engines were not some super rocket ships that ran 8s off the floor. The were large cold blooded large ported engines that needed a lot of rpm to work. When they got rolling they were poetry. But from a dead stop the torque of a 440 would say goodbye to you. By the top of second you were making back ground.

Well said Mike, that pretty much sums up my feelings on the street hemi. I haven't owned one but have driven in a few. They were well tuned....timing, jetting etc...sure they pulled hard but ya had to wind them up. Good head, just needs another 50 cubes beneath it to work on the street. 

Ron

[firefighter3931]

My car is not "soft" on the bottom end, and it keeps pulling up top.   The thing I don't understand is why you would want any more low end torque on the street than I already have?  

Fuchs, soft is a relative term...if you've ever been in a 500ci wedge powered car you'd see my point.  

Is there such a thing as too much torque on the street ?  

Ron

[bull]

Bull, you handicapped my response right off the bat. Anything UGLY...probably not. And since beauty is in the eye of the beholder it's a pretty subjective question. I could tell you that I HATE the looks of the 70 Super Bees, and then I'd say,"YES, I'd take a 70 Hemi Super Bee", but that would be lying. I just can't see taking an UGLY Hemi car just for the Hemi, unless I could flip it for a big profit and buy another Charger in better shape...then maybe buy a crate Hemi and have a Hemi Charger... That's cheating, right?

BTW: if you were fishing for,"Yeah, I'd take an '06 Creeder with a Hemi" you aren't going to get a lame answer like that from me... But I know how you feel about the Creeder, so you prolly weren't fishing at all...

Of course. Who wouldn't trade a '68 383 Charger for a '68 426 Charger? Most people would unless there's sentimental value attached to their 383 car.

As far as the Creeder factor you'll notice I sprinkled the word "classic" throughout the thread title and opening post in order to eliminate the '06 possibility. But now that you brought it up.