Would you trade your Charger for a less desirable classic Mopar with a Hemi?

[69fuchs]

No, all blue,  not directed at you.  I am just not liking the opinions, and that is all they are is opinions.  Opinions tend to sway people-especially over time. When you hear B.S. that doesn't fit your own experience, it is a bit annoying.  And a forum, where people look for advice is a damn silly place to say that a hemi engine is not a good street performer, or it is not as dominant as it once was, or that for serious street duty hemis are not the way to go.  It IS a bunch of crap.  One of the guys in my club has a 70 runner with a ray barton hemi that was built for the street.  9 to1 compression, hydraulic cam, etc.  This guy can't even change his own oil, but when he put it on the chasis dyno after 2 years of street duty, it made 580 hp and 600 foot pounds, at the wheels!!!  He doesn't want to race it, but I sure wish he would!!!

firefighter: I built a 512 inch wedge, with b1bs heads, 660 roller,4.25 inch stroke, with a friend of mine.(it was a joint race effort) It had a m1 intake, a hp 950 holley,I even made the headers for the raised port heads.  It ran 11.20s at 124mph, in a stock body 69 bee with a 4 speed and ss leaf springs.  On street tires, it ran mid 12's, and performed quite well.  The problem is that on the street, without the added rubber and traction compound, it was NOT fast up to about 50 mph.  It would skate around like it was on Ice.  It destroyed a set of m&h street slicks in a week.  The rubber balled up, (while the tires were spinning)  and the tires destroyed themselves.  I would not race someone off the line on the street with that car, it was useless up to 50mph.  That is what I mean by low end on the street.  You are the one talking about a COMBINATION  to make a car run.  To much torque=slow street car.  I am sure that car would still outrun my hemicar on the street, but who would care?  It was a fast mopar with aluminum heads and a roller cam.  We still  have that engine, but the crank broke in two a couple years ago, and money doesn't grow on trees, so it sitting.  And that thing ran hot!!!  A half hour on the street was all you got. Aluminum radiator and all.

[JimShine]

I would not trade. Its not all about speed to me and anything other than the 1969 model Charger is (to me) automatically less desireable, no matter what the engine is in it.

[firefighter3931]

  One of the guys in my club has a 70 runner with a ray barton hemi that was built for the street.   9 to1 compression, hydraulic cam, etc.   This guy can't even change his own oil, but when he put it on the chasis dyno after 2 years of street duty, it made 580 hp and 600 foot pounds, at the wheels!!!   He doesn't want to race it, but I sure wish he would!!!

firefighter: I built a 512 inch wedge, with b1bs heads, 660 roller,4.25 inch stroke, with a friend of mine.(it was a joint race effort) It had a m1 intake, a hp 950 holley,I even made the headers for the raised port heads.   It ran 11.20s at 124mph, in a stock body 69 bee with a 4 speed and ss leaf springs.   On street tires, it ran mid 12's, and performed quite well.   The problem is that on the street, without the added rubber and traction compound, it was NOT fast up to about 50 mph.   It would skate around like it was on Ice.   It destroyed a set of m&h street slicks in a week.   The rubber balled up, (while the tires were spinning)   and the tires destroyed themselves.   I would not race someone off the line on the street with that car, it was useless up to 50mph.   That is what I mean by low end on the street.   You are the one talking about a COMBINATION   to make a car run.   To much torque=slow street car.   I am sure that car would still outrun my hemicar on the street, but who would care?   It was a fast mopar with aluminum heads and a roller cam.   We still   have that engine, but the crank broke in two a couple years ago, and money doesn't grow on trees, so it sitting.   And that thing ran hot!!!   A half hour on the street was all you got. Aluminum radiator and all.

How big was that 9:1 hemi ? Those are some pretty big rear wheel numbers....that sure ain't no stock hemi, lol !

Your 512 sounds like a nice motor. There are ways to improve traction, ladder bars, caltracs, 4link etc...take your pick. The new MT street radials are a fantastic hooking tire. Work great at the track as well as on the street...i know a guy running 10's with the 275 60 15's with caltracs on these tires...not bad at all ! The car is a 71 gtx with a blower and weighs 4000 + lbs which makes the accomplishment even more impressive. It's not really about racing on the street, i don't do that.   But i would like to have a car that is streetable and can run 10's with a simple tire swap at the track. That is my ultimate goal. I just don't see it happening with a 3.75 stroke street hemi. I think even you would have to admit that there was a huge difference between your 512 and the street hemi.

Ron

[R2]

I would keep my Charger ,,, and pass on the HEMI...
Nothing beats running low 11's, pump gas, on the street, for the price of a Wedge....
The HEMI does have the "cool" factor....but I wouldnt give up my Charger for another type of car optioned with a hemi....

plus,,,my "new" 65 Belvedere,,,(also a Wedge),,,,runs well into the mid 10's (solid cam/alum heads)...
the Charger has a 496, alum heads........

[69fuchs]

  One of the guys in my club has a 70 runner with a ray barton hemi that was built for the street.  9 to1 compression, hydraulic cam, etc.  This guy can't even change his own oil, but when he put it on the chasis dyno after 2 years of street duty, it made 580 hp and 600 foot pounds, at the wheels!!!  He doesn't want to race it, but I sure wish he would!!!

firefighter: I built a 512 inch wedge, with b1bs heads, 660 roller,4.25 inch stroke, with a friend of mine.(it was a joint race effort) It had a m1 intake, a hp 950 holley,I even made the headers for the raised port heads.  It ran 11.20s at 124mph, in a stock body 69 bee with a 4 speed and ss leaf springs.  On street tires, it ran mid 12's, and performed quite well.  The problem is that on the street, without the added rubber and traction compound, it was NOT fast up to about 50 mph.  It would skate around like it was on Ice.  It destroyed a set of m&h street slicks in a week.  The rubber balled up, (while the tires were spinning)  and the tires destroyed themselves.  I would not race someone off the line on the street with that car, it was useless up to 50mph.  That is what I mean by low end on the street.  You are the one talking about a COMBINATION  to make a car run.  To much torque=slow street car.  I am sure that car would still outrun my hemicar on the street, but who would care?  It was a fast mopar with aluminum heads and a roller cam.  We still  have that engine, but the crank broke in two a couple years ago, and money doesn't grow on trees, so it sitting.  And that thing ran hot!!!  A half hour on the street was all you got. Aluminum radiator and all.

How big was that 9:1 hemi ? Those are some pretty big rear wheel numbers....that sure ain't no stock hemi, lol !

Your 512 sounds like a nice motor. There are ways to improve traction, ladder bars, caltracs, 4link etc...take your pick. The new MT street radials are a fantastic hooking tire. Work great at the track as well as on the street...i know a guy running 10's with the 275 60 15's with caltracs on these tires...not bad at all ! The car is a 71 gtx with a blower and weighs 4000 + lbs which makes the accomplishment even more impressive. It's not really about racing on the street, i don't do that.  But i would like to have a car that is streetable and can run 10's with a simple tire swap at the track. That is my ultimate goal. I just don't see it happening with a 3.75 stroke street hemi. I think even you would have to admit that there was a huge difference between your 512 and the street hemi.

Ron

yea, the hemi is big it is a mega block  with a 4.15 crank. domintator w/4corner idle circut, barton intake, but it has excellent street manners, and the mods sure have made it a great street car.  At a cruise this summer, I asked him how hot it ran,  he told me he was going to put a higher temp stat in it, 'cause it wont stay above 170 now.

Traction.  sure, we could back half the super bee, but then the streetability would suffer more.  I work on alot of mopars up here ( it is a side job/hobby), and last summer I worked on a 68 satelite with a 4 link and tubs.  It is a street car, but its manners are horrible.  When you turn a corner, it feels like it is going to tip over.  And to be honest, that car didn't hook at all either.  And I don't remember the tire sizes, but they were steam rollers.  I don't know about your car, but the ones that I have driven hook a lot better on the track than on the street.  I've looked at caltracs, but have no experience with them (street or strip)

The hemi with 3.75 crank is not going to run like a wedge with a 4.25.  How about a 4.25 in a 4.35 bore street hemi? ( Yes, some will go 4.35) You already know the answer to that one.  your engine with a 3.75 is great (looking at peak #s).  I am just lucky enough to have Walt Reed here in la crosse.  he raced hemis through the 70's, and built some for the street. (even a 2wd truck)  His car was the scavenger, a 70 hemicuda.  I learned alot from him, and his engines were all 3.75 stroke.  One he built, which was admittedly a race hemi, made 765 hp.  Believe me when I say NONE of his hemis were dogs.

I do have a date with a 1970 coronet R/T,  about 60 miles from me, and it is a 440 mag, that has never been apart. (Low miles 1 owner until recently) It runs very good for a stock 440, and of course he wants to race me.  It didn't happen this year, (he has dinky tires on it now) but I am looking forward to puttin the hurt on him.    I will be glad to post the results for you, hell I'll even try to get a video of it if I can.  And if that thing beats me, I'll have to bow to your superior knowledge.....But it AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN.

[firefighter3931]

Hmm....now we're talking race hemi's, megablocks....a little off topic huh ? You should try a set caltracs if you can't get it to hook. All the comforts of leaf spring suspension with the performance of a ladderbar/4 link.  

So your car runs 13.0's....no big deal inmo. A well sorted out iron 452/906/915 headed 440 can go easy mid 12's with a bowl blend and a little creative cam selection for a fraction of the cost of your hemi....you're still missing the point. The hemi just doesn't deliver on a cost per horsepower basis. Case in point, my buddy's 3800 lb Cuda goes 11.80's with a basicly stock pump gas 440, headers, 509 cam, performer rpm and 750dp. With slicks and caltracs it 60ft's in the low 1.60's. The car is very streetable.  

As for mine, it made 560hp with a Victor and cfs 905 racecarb. Those posted #'s were for the street dominator/830dp induction setup. Throw on an electric waterpump and run some lightweight synthetic lube and it would be good for another 20hp. No bad for a stock rod, heavy piston combo that runs on pump gas and cost 6.5k to build. The basic street hemi crate from mp is more than double the cost and comes up shy to the tune of 100hp. That's a hell of a price to pay for the privelege of saying...."ya, it's got a hemi".  

Ron

[firefighter3931]

I would keep my Charger ,,, and pass on the HEMI...
Nothing beats running low 11's, pump gas, on the street, for the price of a Wedge....

Bingo !  

[Duey]

I would keep my Charger ,,, and pass on the HEMI...
Nothing beats running low 11's, pump gas, on the street, for the price of a Wedge....

Bingo !  

Heresy or not, I also like the sound of a wedge better than the hemi...hard to describe it, but it just sounds sweet!

Cheers,
Duey

[bull]

I like to boil things down to their simplest form. I know I could never get my hands on a crate 426 Hemi for anywhere near as cheap as I could a 440. And yet the performance results vs. money outlay would heavily favor the 440 over the 426, so that tells me right there that the 426 is more about image, legacy, reputation, whatever, than it is about true results. They're both elephants but the 426 is all dressed up in circus regalia and the 440 is bareback in the zoo. No one opens the hood of a 440 car and oohs and aahs because they look just like any 383 or 400. There's something special about the word Hemi and the plug wires dropping straight into the valve covers that gets people giddy. It's like California black plates, a fancy steering wheel or a pistol grip shifter. All these things are cool but they're no more practical or functional than the bone stock equipment. As long as it's all wrapped up in a beautiful Charger body, who cares? (Well, unless it's a 6-banger )

[6pkrunner]

Funny and I thought we were talking about stock hemis as delievered by Ma. Anything leaned on can be built to run. Apples and oranges.
But as delievered by Ma - stock, no mods these were not hyper runners. Mega blocks, aftermarket or leaned on heads, aftermarket cams, aftermarket intakes, carbs - aren'tquite  how it left the factory.
My mistake for not realizing the " Would you trade your Charger for a less desirable classic Mopar with a Hemi?""  meant anything goes.

The Factory designed the 426 to get the heads up on NASCAR. Ford retaliated with the 427 SOHC. That's when NASCAR said you had to sell at least 500 examples to the general public for it to qualify as a legal engine to run. ford backed off Chrysler didn't. The Street Hemi was the actual engine detuned enough to make it streetable. The compromises by the factory to get it on the street were telling in their nature and the STOCK engine showed that. This is what I am talking about. Not a modified aftermarket version.

I'll be the first to say a modified hemi is a stellar performer. Without a doubt. But this wasn't what I thought the topic meant.

[MoparYoungGun]

Hmm, that's hard to say. If it was a '68/'69 Roadrunner, '68/'69 Coronet, or a '64 Polara I would definitely consider it. But, it would also depend how much work and time I have put in the car. I mean, if I had spent a couple years restoring it, putting days and days and days of time into it, then there would be no chance in hell of me selling or trading it.

[69fuchs]

Hmm....now we're talking race hemi's, megablocks....a little off topic huh ? You should try a set caltracs if you can't get it to hook. All the comforts of leaf spring suspension with the performance of a ladderbar/4 link. 

So your car runs 13.0's....no big deal inmo. A well sorted out iron 452/906/915 headed 440 can go easy mid 12's with a bowl blend and a little creative cam selection for a fraction of the cost of your hemi....you're still missing the point. The hemi just doesn't deliver on a cost per horsepower basis. Case in point, my buddy's 3800 lb Cuda goes 11.80's with a basicly stock pump gas 440, headers, 509 cam, performer rpm and 750dp. With slicks and caltracs it 60ft's in the low 1.60's. The car is very streetable. 

As for mine, it made 560hp with a Victor and cfs 905 racecarb. Those posted #'s were for the street dominator/830dp induction setup. Throw on an electric waterpump and run some lightweight synthetic lube and it would be good for another 20hp. No bad for a stock rod, heavy piston combo that runs on pump gas and cost 6.5k to build. The basic street hemi crate from mp is more than double the cost and comes up shy to the tune of 100hp. That's a hell of a price to pay for the privelege of saying...."ya, it's got a hemi". 

Ron

Funny and I thought we were talking about stock hemis as delievered by Ma. Anything leaned on can be built to run. Apples and oranges.
But as delievered by Ma - stock, no mods these were not hyper runners. Mega blocks, aftermarket or leaned on heads, aftermarket cams, aftermarket intakes, carbs - aren'tquite how it left the factory.
My mistake for not realizing the " Would you trade your Charger for a less desirable classic Mopar with a Hemi?"" meant anything goes.

The Factory designed the 426 to get the heads up on NASCAR. Ford retaliated with the 427 SOHC. That's when NASCAR said you had to sell at least 500 examples to the general public for it to qualify as a legal engine to run. ford backed off Chrysler didn't. The Street Hemi was the actual engine detuned enough to make it streetable. The compromises by the factory to get it on the street were telling in their nature and the STOCK engine showed that. This is what I am talking about. Not a modified aftermarket version.

I'll be the first to say a modified hemi is a stellar performer. Without a doubt. But this wasn't what I thought the topic meant.

Yes we were talking about stock stuff---YOUR EDLEBROCK DOESN'T COUNT THEN!!!!!  Like I said, I am racing a STOCK 440magnum in the spring, against my STOCK hemi.  If you have a 440, that is stock and unmodified (like my hemi is) you wont beat me.  If you want to "tweak" on your engine, I will want to "tweak" on mine.  So if your point is that a tweaked wedge will beat a stock street hemi, you win, I lose.  Unfortunately, that is not how it works.  That is like me saying that my 318 coronet performs better than your 440 because I put nitrous on it.  Wouldn't you just put nitrous on your 440 to even things up a bit?  If you are proud of how your engine outperformed a crate engine, kudos to you.  You are the underdog defeating the giant.  A 472 hemi, in my opinion will make tons of power....But hemis didn't come with a 4.15 crank so that doesn't count either.  I have read some of Bob K.'s articles, comparing his six pack bee to his hemicuda,  and even he said if the hemi had a blueprint job (like his sixpack does) the hemi would be faster.  The way they came, there is no comparison, the hemi in good tune is going to win every time.  And yes, I understand that most people that have a real hemicar are not going to modify it because of value,  But there are a quite a few clones now days.....like my buddys 70 runner, that run hard.  Modified? yes. just like yours, just to a larger extent.


So just what is the point? I think I still disagree.  Hemis run great on the street.  They are expensive.  You could build a small block chevy with more power than your 440 for less than 6.5k.  Are you gonna build one of those boat anchors too?

[6pkrunner]

I think you are lumping the two of us together in your post 69fuchs. I was saying that an as delivered off the floor typical stock street hemi wasn't set up to deliever the way it could. The actual runs of the cars as delievered were usually in the low 14 to 15 - yes 15 second range. A good tune, from constant icing of the engine between runs, plug changes to hotter than stock ranges, rewelding distributor advance block, lighter curve springs, wiring open the air door and removing the filter element, rejetting would put them into the 13.1 to 13.5 range. That is what I am saying. Now this is something that anyone can and could do - but it ain't how it left the factory.

Ron is speaking of port velocity as opposed to port volume and making power across a broad RPM range in modified format with long arm cranks and flattops.

Two polar points.

[RD]

I think some are getting a little emotional over this.  It is nothing to take personally, it is just two differing opinions in regards to the matter.  If the emotional ones are to look at this thread from that perspective, maybe, just maybe you will be a little more understanding? 

[472 R/T SE]

But it's some damn good reading....

[firefighter3931]

Ron is speaking of port velocity as opposed to port volume and making power across a broad RPM range in modified format with long arm cranks and flattops.

Exactly ! If Fuchs had any kind of clue he'd realize that this is what the discussion was really about. We are making some progress though...there is agreement on a mildly tweaked wedge being faster than a street hemi....and it doesn't take aluminum heads to do it either.   

As for a 350ci stock stroke small block chevy outpowering mine, that i'd like to see. Same rules, stock crank/rods, 10.5:1 pistons, flat tappet, pump gas, single carb and 6k shiftpoint. It might get close on Hp but torque won't even compare. There is such a thing as rod ratio, but that's another subject better left alone for now.   

Fwiw, one of the top hemi builders in North America lives 50 miles away from me. You've heard of MaCallum racing i assume Fuchs, being the hemi guru that you are. A coworker is friends with him and has assured my i can rent the dyno anytime for some thrashing. After i've built the big wedge we'll haul it down to Don's dyno and show him what an "inferior" wedge motor can do compared to the "allmighty" hemi. It won't make the same power as one of his 70K SS Hemi's but it will be respectable for a pump gas wedge...that i can assure you.

Well, i'm done on this subject for now. Suffice it to say that we'll agree to disagree and leave it at that. Good luck in your future racing career but i have to admit i'll be pulling for the wedge when you guys hit the track.      Nothing personal...i'm just a wedge man !  

Ron

[R2]

 

[kamkuda]

I think some are getting a little emotional over this.  It is nothing to take personally, it is just two differing opinions in regards to the matter.  If the emotional ones are to look at this thread from that perspective, maybe, just maybe you will be a little more understanding? 

Wow,
BTW you are all wrong.  The stroker small block is the way to go. My factory numbers matching 408 in my Cuda vert is much better than your puny Hemi's LOL.  

But in all honesty,  with a new Street Strip car being built it will definately be a wedge.

[volk68]

I couldn't vote.  Everyone knows that Mopar collections are supposed to GROW, not remain the same   You mortgage your house for the Hemi so you can try to restore both at the same time.  C'mon people, it's just basic MOPAR 101

[kamkuda]

I couldn't vote.  Everyone knows that Mopar collections are supposed to GROW, not remain the same   You mortgage your house for the Hemi so you can try to restore both at the same time.  C'mon people, it's just basic MOPAR 101

Absolutelty, One of everything!

[bull]

Funny and I thought we were talking about stock hemis as delievered by Ma. Anything leaned on can be built to run. Apples and oranges.
But as delievered by Ma - stock, no mods these were not hyper runners. Mega blocks, aftermarket or leaned on heads, aftermarket cams, aftermarket intakes, carbs - aren'tquite  how it left the factory.
My mistake for not realizing the " Would you trade your Charger for a less desirable classic Mopar with a Hemi?""  meant anything goes.

The Factory designed the 426 to get the heads up on NASCAR. Ford retaliated with the 427 SOHC. That's when NASCAR said you had to sell at least 500 examples to the general public for it to qualify as a legal engine to run. ford backed off Chrysler didn't. The Street Hemi was the actual engine detuned enough to make it streetable. The compromises by the factory to get it on the street were telling in their nature and the STOCK engine showed that. This is what I am talking about. Not a modified aftermarket version.

I'll be the first to say a modified hemi is a stellar performer. Without a doubt. But this wasn't what I thought the topic meant.

Someone pulled the steering wheel off this topic long ago, but we're still rolling. As far as the cost of a 426 vs. 440, you can't buy a used 426 for anywhere near as cheap as a 440, nor could you get a new 426 as cheap as a 440 back in the late '60s. The 426 Hemis have always been more of a novelty to own and therefore cost more money to buy.

[6670charger]

I'd have to say no.  Hemis are like supermodel girlfriends; they're nice to have and to look at, but, they're also very high maintenance and in the end, not worth the trouble.

[Ghoste]

But also like the supermodel girlfriend, it sure is fun to brag about the workout you gave your Hemi the other night.

[69fuchs]

I'd be glad to agree to disagree.  I'm done to, now that I've wrecked bulls post.  If I start a post, bull you are welcome to get off topic as much as you want!!!!! Sorry to you again, bull.


ANY GOOD HEMI GUY WILL SEE YOU IN THE REARVIEW MIRROR, UNLESS YOU'VE GOT SOME BIG CHIEF HEADS ON YOUR WEDGE!!!!

[BMC440]

No way