Anyone else have problem's with stealth heads

[firefighter3931]

Hey AK. From what I see in the pics, it looks like the issue is where the retainer runs under the rocker arm. It looks like it may be close to hitting the rocker arm body where the shaft goes through the rocker. I circled the area in the pic.

Maybe it's just me but the rocker geometry doesn't look right in that pic. 

I'm wondering if the installed height of those valvesprings is too high....it looks that way to me. 




Ron

[RD]

Maybe it's just me but the rocker geometry doesn't look right in that pic.

I'm wondering if the installed height of those valvesprings is too high....it looks that way to me.
Ron

so is that a manufacturer issue then?  they say you can bolt them on and go... but obviously, they should say have them checked out before you bolt them on and go?

[Musicman]

Here are 2 shots comparing the Stealth to a stock 452... taken with a tripod from the same angle, there may be a slight distortion in the geometry due to the fact that the camera was zoomed in a little closer on the Stealth.

[Musicman]

Looking at 6pac's picture it appears that the keeper is not parallel to the valve stem... Looks like it's cocked on the stem... The entire spring looks curved... Assembly issue perhaps, or maybe it's just an optical illusion  Either way, something appears to be off as Ron stated.

[AKcharger]

OK...So it's the radius of the spring that is hitting the inboard part of the rocker. I thought the problem was the  rocker was left or right of the valve spring

[Chatt69chgr]

My engine is at the machinist and I have a set of the Stealth's too.  From the pictures, it sure looks like the diameter of the valvespring is excessive to properly work with the stock rockers (which I plan to use).  So does anyone know if comp cams makes a valvespring that could be used on these heads that is a smaller diameter.  I have bought the Engle K56 cam for my engine.  Also bought the 10 degree locks for insurance.  So the spring pressure would be need to be something that would be correct for that cam and I think a lot of guys use that Engle cam.  For that matter, why can't you use the spring that is on the 452 shown above.  Height?   Wonder what they use on the Eddy heads?  Havn't heard of this issue with them.

[Runner]

the problem looks like there isnt enough valve stem sticking up past the retainer to me.    mabe its the locks, mabe its the retainer or mabe its the valve or mabe the wrong locks for the reatainer.  but i bet in your case you woulda had a problem with most rockers.      i wonder what the installed height on the springs are?


   that head looks repairable to me.

   my understanding is afr heads are nice right out of the box, to bad they dont do mopar heads!     

   im sorry for your problems 

[firefighter3931]

the problem looks like there isnt enough valve stem sticking up past the retainer to me.   

Yep, that's my take on it as well. 

Personally, i would prefer a "sturdier" retainer with a lower installed height for increased rocker clearance.   



Ron

[Chatt69chgr]

Ron-------could you translate that into parts that I could order from somebody like Comp Cams.  I'd rather spend more money now instead of waiting for the supplied parts to fail.  I already bought the 10 degree locks and retainers from Comp Cams that were discussed on earlier threads.  Hopefully, I can still use those.  I am getting the idea that I will need new valves and valve springs.  Sure hate to have to spend this extra money but if that's what it takes, so be it.  I would think that if this is what the solution turns out to be that 440Source would want to step up to the plate and take care of their customers.  After all, they did advertise that these were bolt on right out of the box.  When I read bolt on, I read using stock valvetrain components, ie, stock rockers.  Being a realist, I am not expecting that to happen.  Thanks.

[Runner]

it it were me, and i didnt have the ability to check installed height, spring presure, retainer to spring fit then i would take the heads to a reputable shop and have them look them over and deside what parts was needed, it might save you money in the long run.

[Steve P.]

The valve stem looks bent to me.. This could easily cause the problem we are looking at with the retainer. Also the retainer looks much thicker, maybe all to the top. This can make it all look like the wrong stem hight as well..

I have to wonder if 440 source isn't looking harder at these for the next batch.....

[firefighter3931]

Chatt ;

The Stealth springs are supposed to be very similar to the Eddy RPM valvesprings which would make them fine for your Engle cam. 

Like Runner said have the heads inspected and corrected if need be. The installed height should be 1.88-1.90 and I would like to see 120 lbs of seat pressure and 300 Lbs+ open.

From what i've seen the Stealth heads are hit or miss when it comes to the hardware (retainers/locks)....some are fine, some aren't. 




Ron

[Rolling_Thunder]

when I get mine I'm planning on going with some sort of Comp beehive spring...   shouldnt have any interferrence at that point with the rockers... 

[RD]

when I get mine I'm planning on going with some sort of Comp beehive spring... shouldnt have any interferrence at that point with the rockers...

very good point.. would definitely eliminate the retainer/rocker interference issue.

[AKcharger]

OK pulled the covers and looked over the valves, no obvious interference (although very close) and no marks on the spring retainers. Only thing I noticed is it looked like the spring is exposed on a couple of valves under the retainer (1st photo 1st valvse on rt) is that normal?   you guys see anything else to be concerned about


Oh BTW, that engine runs VERY good 

[firefighter3931]

OK pulled the covers and looked over the valves, no obvious interference (although very close) and no marks on the spring retainers. Only thing I noticed is it looked like the spring is exposed on a couple of valves under the retainer (1st photo 1st valvse on rt) is that normal?   you guys see anything else to be concerned about

I'm not too thrilled about the fit....it looks like the retainer is floating around on the top of the valve spring. 



Ron

[General_01]

update.... dont think 4406pac has had a chance to post this... but the stealth heads cannot be ran with stock rockers.  the rockers will ride the retainers (i.e. touch) causing too much pressure/load on the keepers, hence the reason why this keeper went south.  owner is contacting 440source to see what is the next step.

This is right off of 440 Source's web site:

Clearanced for large diameter valve springs, our Stealth heads use factory type rocker arms and stock diameter shafts, so no special "high-dollar" offset rockers are required. Any rockers that work on a stock Mopar head will work on our heads. This includes roller rockers, or even stock type stamped steel rockers. Heat crossover is blocked off for increased performance. Factory port windows, exhaust and intake manifold locations make sure you can use any "off the shelf" intake manifold and/or exhaust manifold/headers without any fitment hassles or special "spacers" required. Made of lightweight aluminum alloy, one of these heads weighs only 22 pounds bare or 29 pounds complete with valves and springs. 


If they can't be run with stock rockers now, then 440 Source needs to make it right for him and get the word out to anyone who bought these heads

[Runner]

OK pulled the covers and looked over the valves, no obvious interference (although very close) and no marks on the spring retainers. Only thing I noticed is it looked like the spring is exposed on a couple of valves under the retainer (1st photo 1st valvse on rt) is that normal?   you guys see anything else to be concerned about

I'm not too thrilled about the fit....it looks like the retainer is floating around on the top of the valve spring. 



Ron

did those springs and retainers come on the heads?       

[fourspd440]

Bill,
    Look at your #2 exhaust valve.  I'm a little concerned about that spring.  It seems to be sliding out more than the rest. 
Look at EVERY rocker arm to valve retainer clearance as you rotate the engine through a revolution.  Just because one has good clearance doesn't mean they all do.  Check the clearance between the compressed springs at full lift as well.  Also, take a black felt tip marker and color in the top of the valve stem.  Then rotate the engine through a revolution.  You should see a nice clean, even, bare line across the MIDDLE of the valve stem. 
Are you using aftermarket springs that came with your cam or the springs that were on the head.  I don't mind the aluminum castings themselves.  BUT....  Think about all of the stresses put on those keepers, retainers, and valve stems at 6,000 RPM's.  Do you really want Chinese components there? 

ANY TIME you use non-stock components, you should blueprint the assembly.  In my mind, nothing is "bolt-on" and go.

Hemi Stan

[Musicman]

Hi fella's

I've been away for a few days... catching up on a little rest & relaxation up in the White Mountains of NH.

I see the sky is still falling here... what is now, Keepers? OK... Below is a side by side of the trusted Mopar style and one from a Stealth.

First let's talk about the Mopar piece... As you can see in the image, the shoulder that actually keeps the spring centered in place is rounded and rather shallow. Mounted on top of a stock Mopar spring this keeper allows about 3/32" of side to side spring movement, and with the shallow rounded shoulder, a spring could easily slip and ride up under the keeper in a sloppy valve train assembly. Fortunately, normal spring pressures assure that this will not happen, or at least shouldn't.

Now let's look at the Stealth piece... As you can plainly see, the shoulder is not only taller than the stock Mopar (almost twice as tall in fact), but it also has a nice square edge to help detour the spring from slipping and riding up under the keeper. The valve train would have to be really, really, really sloppy to slip a spring under one of these. Mounted on a Stealth spring this keeper had almost no slippage side to side, less than 1/32" anyway.

Say what you like folks... I'll take the Stealth piece any day of the week over the stock Mopar piece...

In Bill's case, the very end of the spring appears to be sticking out a bit, so it may be the spring itself that is or is not at fault. Perhaps the very end of the spring where it was cut and re-curved to sit flat got sprung a little during manufacture. A couple of quick measurements taken in place with a set of calipers would reveal that answer.

[4406pac]

Here is another update, thanks to Musicman's pic of his stealth head with stock rockers I noticed allot of the valve stem, the pic I put in of mine I was at a higher angle so it looked like I had more of the valve tip showing than I actually do. Not every rocker was hitting, just the ones with no valve tip showing, I took a couple pics with a putty knife on top of the tip so you can see how much it sunk down in the retainer. I do believe on initial setup we had the correct pushrod geometry, I still believe the cause of the problem was the cheap retainers and keepers on the stealth heads. With a little RPM say 6000 it's pulling the keepers thru the retainers causing them to hit the rockers. I didn't mean to scare everybody running stock rockers, I just don't want this to happen to anybody else! I would suggest if you are planning to drive your Mopar like it should be, then replace the retainers and keepers. Any other suggestions of the cause are welcome.

[Musicman]

6 Pac... Don't no if you checked them out before assembly or not, but there have been many cases noted in the past where the Lock & Keeper assemblies were not correctly put together at the factory... They were there, but they were not locked on correctly, which causes the stem protrusion to vary valve to valve, and is a potential problem waiting to happen. Just another one of those things that should always be looked at before final assembly.

It has also been stated many times that the standard 7 degree Locks & Keepers are probably good enough for most of the modest applications, but that 10 degree sets should always be used for higher performance applications, especially higher lifts.

[RD]

Only mild build 383, .060 over, 8.5.1 maybe(120-125 cylinder pressure), 509 hyd cam, stock rockers.

clearly this is not a high performance build.  the locks/retainers should be able to handle this without any issue.  there is a quality control issue here and it should be addressed.

i am not saying the stealth heads are turds, they totally arent.  they are awesome heads at a great price, for the mopar guy who cannot afford a lot.   they perform quite well from what i have personally seen and read about from other members.  What i am saying is that if you purchase a product then stuff like this should not occur shortly after installation and usage.  you should NOT have to buy new items and replace the stock items to insure longevity and performance.  Such items should be up to standard initially, with an option by the buyer to purchase better products, but not mandatory.

That being said, though it may be wise to inspect your heads if you know what you are looking at, if a pair of heads that are being brought to market in direct competition with edelbrock, indy, and any other manufacturer; then its quality should be at a level to handle such a mild build as the above.  If not.. then it is time to address the issue, fix it, and insure each customer is aware of the design issue.  Afterall, the automotive companies do this all the time (i.e. recalls). 

I wont fault 440 source for making this right, addressing the issue and developing a logical and fair resolution; but I will fault them for not doing anything about it.  I am biased in the sense that I know the owner of these, so I will not blame him for this happening.  Do you really believe he wanted to ruin his engine?

[Musicman]

Having read all of the stories now concerning locks & keepers on the Stealth heads, I have come to the conclusion that the Locks themselves seem to be the weak link in this chain. Apparently, while one set of heads may have a nice clean sharp set of locks, another set may come through with a set of less than spectacular locks. I think they must just pull these out of an old rusty bucket full of locks at the factory somewhere. I have personally examined all of the components that make up my heads, and it is my opinion that the locks are by far the worst piece. The ones on my heads are not bad... I've seen better of course $$$, but their not bad. Then again I've seen pictures of some that looked almost rusty with what appeared to be smoothed over edges, almost cast looking. So I guess the bottom line is if your going to by these heads fully assembled, then you would be wise to follow the suggestions made by Ron and others like myself. Take them apart, examine everything, get a 1st rate valve job done, and replace the 7 degree locks & keepers with a decent 10 degree set. Don't expect them to be "Bolt On Ready To Go" right out of the box.... Don't expect that from any factory assembled head period.

You could always by them bare bones as well, then you can decide for yourself what to use on them right from the start.

I'm not ready to fault 440source for the few discrepancies that have arisen since these heads were introduced. Problems do and will occur with even the best of products. I've read plenty of horror stories concerning the ever popular Eddy and Indy heads as well, so 440source is by no means alone in this category. I believe that Eddy puts out a better product overall, but they cost quite a bit more as well. The Stealth heads have their place in the food chain. They are a good inexpensive alternative for the guy on a tight budget, but you can't expect miracles out of the box. Your not paying for 1st class, so why would you expect to receive it. As long as you follow the simple rules and practices outlined above you should not have an issue like this in the future. At least you can say that you have done your part to avoid it. But then again, as we said in the old days... Shit Happens 

[SeattleCharger]

I don't know much about engine building here, but my     from talking to machine shop:

   When I was talking to machine shop about getting heads with long block rebuild, he said he would only warranty the engine build if he bought the heads and inspected and made any corrections and fixed any found problems first.   This was in reference to eddy heads back then, last summer?  anyways, he said the last 3 pairs of eddy rpm heads he had built an engine with needed some sort of small fix up on the springs or retainers or something, can't remember.   So, seems that bolt on from either company is at your own risk without an expert or semi expert double checking factory assembly/parts.