69 charger rear frame install

[riggs626]

Ok this is my first post but Ive got a 1968 charger Im capping the rear frame rails and replacing the rear cross member along with spring shackles, all the parts except the shackle mounts came from ART which been having nothing with problems with the fitment of the parts from them. I needed to know if anyone had any reference pictures of a finished rear cross member and frame cap. Im trying to find how close the cross memeber needs to be to the rear valance (I bought this car with them already missing so I wasnt available to get mesaurements) Thanks for your help

[Sweet T]

There are lots of places to get the measurements of the car.  I do not have them off hand but I am sure somewhere on here you can find a picture with all the dimensions.  Are you sure you want to just cap them instead of cutting them out and putting new sections in?  I've done this before with good success.

[69*F5*SE]

Welcome to the board. Post pics if you can.

[riggs626]

well  Ive been thinking about that and I already have the caps and cross member from ART which I wish I didnt buy the caps from them since ive had nothing but fitment issues and problems with the caps but its already put me back on the budget I have maybe I can sell them off somehow

[Sweet T]

You'll find budgets get thrown out the window pretty quick.  I thought I was doing an easy rest and now I'm figuring I'll be triple what I had set as me original budget.

[riggs626]

  well I know never to buy from auto rust technicians again spent over a thousand on parts and not one of them fit right rear cross member was too long the caps didnt even slide over the frame rails not to mention they dont even line up on the cross member Im not even getting started on the other parts I bought... even after dave assured me this was the right way to go and there would be no fitment issues. Any way would you guys suggest doing a half frame or full frame and who would you get them thru. I only think half cause the fron half of the frame is still in great shape

[Sweet T]

You get an argument asking that.  I don't think I have seen full frame rails anywhere in reproduction.  You can always find them at Mopar swap meets, usually with the shackle box still on which is great.  Most of the body guys I talked to were confident just replacing the rotten half was the better way to go, but I had a few swear that way was no good.  Year One carries the parts you need (last time I looked).  But I imagine most body guys can order the parts in.

[lilwendal]

I don't like the caps...Its a band aid over a bullet hole. Why would you want to cover damaged and rusty frame rails with a cap??   I've performed both full frame replacements and splices as well. Splices work nicely if only the back foot or two of the frame rail has issues.  If your entire rail has issues then its a full replacement preferable a  original with the spring perches still attached.  That makes the job much easier.
Can't speak much for the repop replacement frames. I always use original donor frames. They are still plentifull and readibly available.

[riggs626]

well i ordered replacement halfs I questioned caps but like I said dave said it was the way to go...anyways out 400 dollars from ART but i have new perch mounts from AMD and the half rails cause the back two feet of the original rails are rotted i  was able to go down to bare metal and find the good stuff so its the ft and half from the cross member back thats rusted out now I have to ponder why the previous owner didnt replace wheel well when they put new quarters on .

[suntech]

I have to ponder why the previous owner didnt replace wheel well when they put new quarters on .

Same thing with my car!! I can put my hand between the quarter and the wheelwell, not from rust, but rough cutting!! !
Was´nt aware of that Stevie Wonder did sheet metal work on the side
Anyways, it is the patch panels, so they will go off, together with the weel wells, to make it right, with new full quarters and wheelwells

[zerfetzen]

AMD has them listed here for $350, if they're out yet:

http://www.autometaldirect.com/listing.php?listingid=143&pageid=117

[AutoRust]

Well, send them back to me if they are not altered. I have no problem returning someones $$.
I am unsure what your fitments issues are, and wish you could elaborate a bit. Did you cut away the old crap? Did you make sure everything was out of the way and did you test fit and trim back as needed?
I tell people all the time that fabrication skills are necessary and they dont just slip over and your finished. Our instructions clearly state you must cut away the rusted area. Sometimes this entails cutting away more then what we send to you to use. Our kits are called " Frame repair kits" for a reason. They are not replacement rails made in China, or Taiwan, they are built here in the U,S of A, and are just that, A frame repair kit. We do NOT represent them as being replacements, nor do we recommend them as save-all, fix-all, solve-all problems repair kits.
We are a rust repair facility, and have been repairing rusty cars for over 31 years. For many years there was NOTHING avaialable to repair rusty cars, no panels, no sheet metal, no nothing unless you could still buy OEM stuff. We developed these kits to use in our shop, so we had something to work with. People started asking how they could fix it themself in there repair shop, or at home, so we cobbled together something that helped them get it back on the road. After a while, more and more people started ordering them, so we invested in CNC equipment, and CAD systems, in order to produce a better product. We tell people right out, these will not just set in place and get welded in. You must have some fabrications skills, and welding skills in order to put them in. Its not a simple job, your reconstructing a major structural component of your automobile. Take your time, make them work. You cant expect to just throw a kit in and tack weld it in place, you have to work the metal to make it work for you.
There is no easy solution for rust repair. It will kick the $hit out of you and a budget. I have had plenty of people use these kits and have great results, other people have high expectations and are unsatisfied with them. Hey, it takes all kinds. Some folks have the skills to back half a car, in there driveway with a floor jack. Some folks have a body shop at there disposal and can mount a car on a jig or rotesire and have a full shop of tools available to them as well as skilled workers to utilize. Some folks are working at night and weekends in a 1 car garage, with a minimum of tools and skills, but a ton of desire. Some are even working in the driveways with not much more then a few scattered tools and no one to even help them. It takes all kinds. We all want the same thing, and thats a car we can drive at the end of the day. I tell people all the time to look at our project pictures, you will see what it takes to save these cars, and see how we do it in our shop.
http://autorust.com/gc0.html

However you do have to be realistic with these cars. They are old. They will need shovels full of cash to get them done correctly, in the long run, you get what you pay for. If you buy a car for $10,000 or less, and all the other ones are selling for $25-30,000, then you really must expect to spend the difference, or more to get an equal machine.
Sorry to get so long winded, but if you want, call me up, I will try to help however I can, tips and techniques on repairing, a discount, or a return, whatever helps you best.

Dave

[riggs626]

 except for the cross member which was just too long which fine had no problem with that at all simple cutting and resizing. the frame rail caps were a different story after the old rails were cleaned and everything stripped down the caps were not even wide enough to slide over or be pressed in. so I took a couple port a powers and rams and bent them out to where they could be pressed over the rail with some rams worked ok but the rail didnt line up at all with the factory measurments it was off by 1inch on both sides facing outwards and two inch's lower to the ground  where it didnt line up to the cross member I dont think you will take them back since I had already painted them with weld thru primer. I expected a little TLC to make them fit but these two must have just  slipped past quality control. the perfomance pac that I still have to install looks alot better tho.

[Mike DC]

 
I've dealt with ART a couple of times.  Always been treated well.  They're not doeing OEM gorgeous stuff, but they make no bones about it either. 

Like other people have said in the past about ART, I could probably make the stuff at home out of raw steel stock. 
But my time & effort isn't totally worthless to me.  ART sells it cheaper (and probably better) than I'd ever get it done myself.   If they're charging $400 for an order, it's not worth spending several days of my life hard at work with my welder & air tools just to get it built at home for $275.


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The replacement rear subframe rails are said to be in the works from AMD. 



If the subframe rails are gone, then usually everything else around them is cooked too.  Crossmembers, spring mounts, etc. 

Add the price of all that up, throw in the issues of parts being made by multiple different brands not fitting each other, and getting it all lined up again correctly to weld together . . .  I wonder how the costs will compared to just buying a whole used rear clip from one of the Mopar salvage places. 




But my larger concern is the Asian metal of the AMD repro frame components. 

This is not a "buy American" rant, I just want the new rails as strong as the old ones.  Asian repro stuff has a decades-long history of always promising this but never delivering it.  There's no point in AMD producing a great-fitting quarter panel skin, if their great-fitting subframe rails are gonna let the body flex too much and crack the welds on the quarters anyway.



Time well tell about what we're getting from AMD.  They seem to be trying hard so far but it's too early to know.

[lilwendal]

Mike DC
I agree with you on the frame rails.  Thats why for those I always recomend and use original stuff.  AMDs products have been superior so far with fit and correctness but as you stated "Time will tell" about the repop frame rails integrity.   For some of these projects the original frames and cross members has deteriorated to a point were it is no longer safe and the repop rails would definetly be better than that.
When all it takes is a phone call to get a complete original rust free frame rail at the same price as a repop.... There is no debate... Get the original piece.  No issue with fit or metal gauge/composition.  IMHO

[AutoRust]

I have had the chance to use AMD's sheetmetal. I am impressed with the fit, but NOT impressed with the quality of the metal. When we weld it in place, there is a lot of popping, and nasty noises, it kind of reminds me of what I call "monkey metal". It just doesnt seem to have the same carbon content as what we are use to. I suppose its ok to use for a beauty queen, but for someone to go out and flog the snot out of there Mopar, I have my doubts about the overall structural integrity of it.
I hear a lot of mixed feelings about using the AMD stuff, they are trying to get a lot of product out, but its all made overseas, and that dont sit well with a lot of people. I was in Detroit, MI for the Woodward Ave Dream Cruise. There are a lot of pissed off people out there at the Imported stuff coming into this country. The unemployment rate is over 8% there, and looking to get a lot worse in the near future. If the big 3 are losing money and laying off a lot of people, the trickle down effect is going to be brutal. Not to many people want to hear about buying Chinese parts for there American Made Detroit iron.
However,back to what I said in my earlier post about skill levels and abilities. There are some that can back half a car, no problem. Its a huge undertaking no matter who you are. Some people can drill spot welds and disassemble a car with ease, and get it back together again. Its always easier to take them apart, getting it back together is another story. Not everyone can do that. We see it all the time. Some people bought a car they thought was done, and come to find out it has rust on the floor, or trunk, or frame. They might live in a condo, with no garage, and have no place to work on it, they just want to drive it, thats why they bought it. Now they post a comment on here " what do I do?" and the replies start rolling in, from go to Gibson in Wisconsin and bring him a check for $75000, or to go in your garage and cut the rear frame off it, or buy a cap and patch it up and keep driving it this month, not next year, or in 5 years. It all boils down to skill level and budgets. Some people can pour lots of time and money into a car, no matter what it takes. Some peole cant afford to pay for there dreams, but still want something fun to drive and cruise with. Hey its all good.

Sorry if I get off topic a bit, and this is not a " buy American" rant, just 30 years of industry knowledge.

Dave

[Mike DC]

The Dynacorn repro unibodies have been described as actually made of decent-grade metal. 

I don't know whether or not it's true. 


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The American/Asian issue is unfortunate but there's no stopping it.  The price difference is just too wide of a gap. 


It sucks that the UAW will end up without many living-wage jobs, but honestly they're fighting for stuff that all the other similar American industries have already lost a long time ago.  The OEMs are just dealing with worldwide labor changes much larger than the auto industry alone.  It's a worldwide shift, and Detroit is ground-zero for the worst end of the bargain.

         

[SFRT]

I just replaced my entire DS front rail and I got a complete rail with shock tower and all from Texas Acres for 250 bucks plus 100 for shippingIt came in a week. he cut it off the original (lime green!) car PERFECTLY...so for stuff like this I would recommend them. Thing just fit right on. no hassles.

[AutoRust]

I just replaced my entire DS front rail and I got a complete rail with shock tower and all from Texas Acres for 250 bucks plus 100 for shippingIt came in a week. he cut it off the original (lime green!) car PERFECTLY...so for stuff like this I would recommend them. Thing just fit right on. no hassles.

If, and its a BIG if, you have the tools and skills to do it, it is a great way. Some people can, some people cant.
We had a 70 AAR Cuda in the shop, we got 2 rails from Texas for it. Of course they fit. It was a lot of work even for us, and we do this stuff all day every day.
People do what they can with what they have. Its all good

[suntech]

It just doesnt seem to have the same carbon content as what we are use to.

It should be a fairly straight forward analysis prosedure, to actually figure out what kind of metal the parts are made of??

[Mike DC]

Yeah, it's not a challenge to figure out what's correct. 

But unfortunately the Taiwanese producers are just doing some fairly straightforward corner-cutting.

[Bobs69]

This forum is great.  Thanks for letting everyone know about you dis-pleasure with ART.  We should have a special area in the site (if we don't already?) where we can express our disappointments and avoid more.  Of course someone always has to take one for the team, but we can also have a thread that we can rave about products that worked good.  Maybe we can force retailer to make better products?  I could be dreaming.........

I seen the caps in a magazine once and though of yeah that's within my ability that could be fun.  Then as earlier mentioned I'm not sure I like the idea of leavin the old crap underneath.  But that could make the car stiffer?  I know I wasn't happy when the original body man I worked with on my car put the rocker panels on over the old ones....

[suntech]

Yeah, it's not a challenge to figure out what's correct.

I work in a buisness that are using services like that on regular bases. I just might send an original piece, and a rpop piece in for analyzing