Poor service from 440 Source.com

[firefighter3931]

I'm with you dspaulding. I made a mistake on an oil pump drive from summit and didn't find out till seven months later. Summit still took it back and I'll never forget that. Some policies will hurt business if they can't be bent once in a while.

Yea, that's one thing I really like about Summit... but then again, Summit is Huge by comparison. 440Source is just a small speciality shop.

It appears 440 Source is rather inflexible about their return policy. The Big vendors have no problem accepting returns long afterwards. Summit took an electric fuel pump back from me a year after purchase (sold vehicle) no questions asked. Year one will take stuff that has been purchased several years before....no questions asked. 


Allthough the "Source" has excellent pricing they do seem too rigid & inflexible, inmo. For them not to accept a return/exchange on a brand new $500 set of pistons seems rediculous. The guy i'm talking about ordered a set of .030 overbore slugs for his 440 stroker build and it turned out the block wouldn't clean up at .030 and he needed to go bigger and tried to exchange them for the .055 pistons. No deal 


That engine is now running Diamond Pistons and 440 Source lost a customer, forever....all of his friends were made aware as well. Word travels fast and you're really only as good as your last sale. 


My advice if ordering from them....make absolutely sure of what you need before placing your order. 




Ron

[Musicman]

My advice if ordering from them....make absolutely sure of what you need before placing your order. 

  That's their policy, and apparently they are going to hold you to it. Their pricing is great, but like the man said, make sure you order the right part from the start.

[1969chargerrtse]

Yea, that's one thing I really like about Summit... but then again, Summit is Huge by comparison. 440Source is just a small speciality shop.

Gee, I wonder why one shop is Huge and one is small?  Maybe a policy change or a little flexability is in need of order for them?   

[68rt]

business is slow right now, unless you're working for oil company. Im sure most businesses would appreciate a $600 even if they did have to give $50 for a stinking bolt set

[Troy]

Why is it that so many people think they are special? Why should companies be expected to treat you differently than everyone else? What if 440Source took this return and everyone knew about it? There would be hundreds of people mad when their returns are refused because "that one guy" was allowed to do it. Why was he so special? *IF* a company bends the rules they are doing that particular customer a favor but this should not be expected. I hate it when people think I "owe" them something (one of the primary reasons for not taking donations for this site). I see this all the time in retail where a person will ask for a discount and then leave if they can't get one (or get mad if they do get one and it isn't as big as they think they deserve). Hundreds - if not thousands - of other people feel the price is fair and gladly pay it so why should any individual be able to bully ownership to get what they want (especially if it makes no sense financially)?

By the way, Wal-Mart will take nearly anything on return - sometimes even stuff that wasn't purchased at their store. When you're dealing with massive inventory it's a bit easier to do this than if you have tight controls on cash/asset flow. You guys that think it's so easy to meet the whims of every customer need to try running a business. Specialty/boutique shops who will do anything and everything for the customer are usually far to expensive for most of us.

I build software for a living. There has to be certain unchangeable rules (agreed upon by both parties) or costs can spiral out of control in a hurry and neither side is happy in the end. I could go either way with this - totally modifiable on any day in any direction or totally rigid - but a compromise is usually the best solution. The more rigid things are the cheaper the price while more "custom" work usually raises costs exponentially (depending on when the changes are made). It is much easier for me to say "no" than it is to bend one tiny rule because once I allow the first one it changes the customer's expectations and they'll push as far as they can.

As for credit cards, fees are something like $0.30-0.60 per transaction (no matter the amount) plus 3% or so of the total purchase price. On a $5 purchase that can be close to 15% and many companies are lucky to break 10% profit (many large grocery stores for example plan on 3-6%). I guarantee there are a larger percentage of people making small food purchases than large ones so the reality is that the companies lose way more on the credit card fees for thousands of small purchases than they gain by the meager profit on a few large purchases.

Troy

[firefighter3931]

*IF* a company bends the rules they are doing that particular customer a favor but this should not be expected.

Troy

The point is really the rules themselves.  The orignal poster stated that he was disappointed with their no-return policy and he's stuck with some un needed parts. That's really his fault for not reading the return policy closely enough. 

My point is that their return policy isn't fair to begin with. Perhaps a 15% restocking fee to cover adminstrative expenses would be reasonable 

Eating a $500 set of pistons wouldn't make anyone happy. In this case they have lost a customer and lots of potential future business from his friends and associates. 


Maybe 440 Source doesn't care because sales volume is good...who knows, but a little goodwill between the vendor and customer can go a long way to enhancing a business' image. The Mopar marketplace isn't that large....and word travels fast. 



Ron

[Drache]

What if 440Source took this return and everyone knew about it?

Except it wasn't a return it was an exchange from what I understand, the chrome bolts for the black bolts and they said no....

I can understand not accepting a return because of the hassle and fees, but a simple exchange is way different IMO...

[1969chargerrtse]

Why is it that so many people think they are special? Why should companies be expected to treat you differently than everyone else? What if 440Source took this return and everyone knew about it? There would be hundreds of people mad when their returns are refused because "that one guy" was allowed to do it. Why was he so special? *IF* a company bends the rules they are doing that particular customer a favor but this should not be expected. I hate it when people think I "owe" them something (one of the primary reasons for not taking donations for this site). I see this all the time in retail where a person will ask for a discount and then leave if they can't get one (or get mad if they do get one and it isn't as big as they think they deserve). Hundreds - if not thousands - of other people feel the price is fair and gladly pay it so why should any individual be able to bully ownership to get what they want (especially if it makes no sense financially)?

By the way, Wal-Mart will take nearly anything on return - sometimes even stuff that wasn't purchased at their store. When you're dealing with massive inventory it's a bit easier to do this than if you have tight controls on cash/asset flow. You guys that think it's so easy to meet the whims of every customer need to try running a business. Specialty/boutique shops who will do anything and everything for the customer are usually far to expensive for most of us.

I build software for a living. There has to be certain unchangeable rules (agreed upon by both parties) or costs can spiral out of control in a hurry and neither side is happy in the end. I could go either way with this - totally modifiable on any day in any direction or totally rigid - but a compromise is usually the best solution. The more rigid things are the cheaper the price while more "custom" work usually raises costs exponentially (depending on when the changes are made). It is much easier for me to say "no" than it is to bend one tiny rule because once I allow the first one it changes the customer's expectations and they'll push as far as they can.

As for credit cards, fees are something like $0.30-0.60 per transaction (no matter the amount) plus 3% or so of the total purchase price. On a $5 purchase that can be close to 15% and many companies are lucky to break 10% profit (many large grocery stores for example plan on 3-6%). I guarantee there are a larger percentage of people making small food purchases than large ones so the reality is that the companies lose way more on the credit card fees for thousands of small purchases than they gain by the meager profit on a few large purchases.

Troy

Respectively speaking,
" As for credit cards, fees are something like $0.30-0.60 per transaction (no matter the amount) plus 3% or so of the total purchase price. On a $5 purchase that can be close to 15% and many companies are lucky to break 10% profit (many large grocery stores for example plan on 3-6%). I guarantee there are a larger percentage of people making small food purchases than large ones so the reality is that the companies lose way more on the credit card fees for thousands of small purchases than they gain by the meager profit on a few large purchases."

No matter how you put it, Dunkin Donuts has no problem taking my AM EX card for a medium coffee cream and sugar all day long.  Then I swing by there in the am and grab the kids donuts also ( I've even had lunch there ).  Explain it any way you wish, and make sense.  Bottom line is I'll be at DD 4 times a day and not at the little store that has a sign saying 10.00 min for CC purchase.  It seems to be all the big chains that bend or are more customer friendly, and that's why they are big.

The poor guy was looking for an exchange that's all.   They lost a customer, 145.00 and maybe more, shame on them.  And yes I understand they have a crappy policy.  " The customer is always right "  Man am I old school. 

I think dspaulding70 explained it perfect back a bit.

"I am a business owner myself.  The number one policy for my company is that the customer is the lifeblood of my company.  I face many situations like this in my business and I believe that if my company appears to be unappreciative to my customers, it is an absolute certainty they will not return.  Policy is a general guide for employees.  Owners of companies can and should make exceptions.  Customers expect service above and beyond "Policy".  When a customer feels that you have made an exception for them, they respect and appreciate the gesture and they become loyal.  The $50 "policy" that 440source.com is unwilling to reconsider cost them a $145 order today and a guarantee that I will not place another order with them."

Any other thoughts? 

[dodgecharger-fan]

Bottom line is I'll be at DD 4 times a day and not at the little store that has a sign saying 10.00 min for CC purchase.

DD doesn't pay as high a transaction fee as the little store because they do a higher volume of transactions. Not just in the one DD, but across the entire chain. Heck, they might even process the transactions themselves before "bulking" them to the CC companies.

The 15% or so that Troy mentions is a reality for that little store.

[Silver R/T]

*IF* a company bends the rules they are doing that particular customer a favor but this should not be expected.

Troy

The point is really the rules themselves.  The orignal poster stated that he was disappointed with their no-return policy and he's stuck with some un needed parts. That's really his fault for not reading the return policy closely enough. 

My point is that their return policy isn't fair to begin with. Perhaps a 15% restocking fee to cover adminstrative expenses would be reasonable 

Eating a $500 set of pistons wouldn't make anyone happy. In this case they have lost a customer and lots of potential future business from his friends and associates. 


Maybe 440 Source doesn't care because sales volume is good...who knows, but a little goodwill between the vendor and customer can go a long way to enhancing a business' image. The Mopar marketplace isn't that large....and word travels fast. 



Ron

agree, I know our company does its best to keep and make new customers. We stand behind our products and have excellent warranty.

[Kevin68N71]

My thoughts on this....

Any company is entitled to whatever return policy they wish, from all sales final to a liberal return policy a la Home Depot.  And customers are entitled to buy where they wish.

That said, I don't agree with bashing the original poster because "he didn't read the policy".  Come on guys, every one of you reading this has tried to return something somewhere past its due date, or taped up something you opened that you didn't want and returned it.  Or lost the receipt and sweet talked the cashier into giving you a refund.

Don't BS the group with "oh I never did anything like that in my life"! 

All businesses depend on transactions, and there is always an exception.  This guy was buying more parts and they would not return something perfectly good.  Sure, that's their policy.  They have a right to it, and the guy has a right to vent about his personal case. 

The sword cuts two ways.  And guess what, I am left with the impression that this company is perhaps someone I should think twice before doing business with.  I would not exclude them based on one person's experience, but it does make me think twice and give pause.  It's like, in a sense, the Dixie Chicks are free to call the President a loser, and I am free not to buy any of their crappy CDs.  You are entitled to your policy, and your politics, and consumers are entitled to decide where their cash goes.

I have ordered from other Mopar houses and have yet had any customer satisfaction issues.  I like to hear about when others have issues, that's what forums like this one are all about.

[Troy]

I'm not saying there aren't other ways to run a business - just that there's usually a reason behind what companies do (although not always since some companies seem to make decisions for no logical reason). The big chains are more flexible because they can be (cash flow) - that isn't necessarily what got them where they are today. Of course, the big chains are also the ones everyone complains about for squeezing out "the little guy" who is more customer oriented so figure that one out. No company can make every customer happy so you just have to look for the path that will please the most customers and let the rest find somewhere else to go. However, the company still has to make money in the mean time so that trumps all else. If the policy needs changed to shift this balance then that's what will happen at some point. I worked in the mail order business for a long time and it never failed to amaze me that someone would order something (usually heavy) Next Day Air and then (after receiving the item) expect the freight charges to be dropped because they were too high. We always confirmed the shipping charges and total cost for the order on the phone before ending the call so they knew - and agreed to - the cost before the order printed in the warehouse. Why should the company have to eat the cost for the customer's inability to comprehend simple math? Or their lack of planning which put them in that spot to begin with? Sure, it would be a nice thing to do that for the customer but it's not the smart thing to do. To be honest, the decision to refund the money was based on past order history and not what the customer may or may not order in the future.

Also, the customer is NOT always right. I was a bartender for several years and only once did a manager second guess my decision about a customer (I had cut them off). He lost a bartender and a pile of regular customers in the process. Cliche's are mostly true - but words like "always", "never", "all", and "every" are used way more often than they should be. The more specialized the business the more often the customer is wrong.

Troy

[Silver R/T]

Ive bought an attachment for my weed trimmer the other year. When I installed it and tried running it wouldnt run. It was seized up. Upon further inspection it looked like it was used before and they broke it and returned it and store has put it back on shelf. Of course service dept at the store tried to refuse it but manager agreed to refund it. I guess it was their fault that they tried to sell a used/broken product but I still shop there since they agreed to give me a refund.

[1969chargerrtse]

I'm not saying there aren't other ways to run a business - just that there's usually a reason behind what companies do (although not always since some companies seem to make decisions for no logical reason). The big chains are more flexible because they can be (cash flow) - that isn't necessarily what got them where they are today. Of course, the big chains are also the ones everyone complains about for squeezing out "the little guy" who is more customer oriented so figure that one out. No company can make every customer happy so you just have to look for the path that will please the most customers and let the rest find somewhere else to go. However, the company still has to make money in the mean time so that trumps all else. If the policy needs changed to shift this balance then that's what will happen at some point. I worked in the mail order business for a long time and it never failed to amaze me that someone would order something (usually heavy) Next Day Air and then (after receiving the item) expect the freight charges to be dropped because they were too high. We always confirmed the shipping charges and total cost for the order on the phone before ending the call so they knew - and agreed to - the cost before the order printed in the warehouse. Why should the company have to eat the cost for the customer's inability to comprehend simple math? Or their lack of planning which put them in that spot to begin with? Sure, it would be a nice thing to do that for the customer but it's not the smart thing to do. To be honest, the decision to refund the money was based on past order history and not what the customer may or may not order in the future.

Also, the customer is NOT always right. I was a bartender for several years and only once did a manager second guess my decision about a customer (I had cut them off). He lost a bartender and a pile of regular customers in the process. Cliche's are mostly true - but words like "always", "never", "all", and "every" are used way more often than they should be. The more specialized the business the more often the customer is wrong.

Troy

" Also, the customer is NOT always right. I was a bartender for several years and only once did a manager second guess my decision about a customer (I had cut them off). He lost a bartender and a pile of regular customers in the process. Cliche's are mostly true - but words like "always", "never", "all", and "every" are used way more often than they should be. The more specialized the business the more often the customer is wrong."
Yea, I agree with that 100%  I never felt that was a wise cliche.  Reminds me of " That's the way it's always been done "  That one has to go also. 

[Musicman]

Yea, that's one thing I really like about Summit... but then again, Summit is Huge by comparison. 440Source is just a small speciality shop.

Gee, I wonder why one shop is Huge and one is small?  Maybe a policy change or a little flexability is in need of order for them?   

Summit is huge because they have to cater to a much larger crowd, across a much wider base. 440source sells parts for one particular customer only... the owner of a Big Block Mopar... which makes my shopping day a little easier. Little shops like 440source don't get the same deals & catered contracts from vendors that a company like Summit does. Why do you think big box stores like Home Depot & Walmart have such lenient return policies... it's not costing them a dime.

[RD]

Summit is huge because they have to catter to a much larger crowd, across a much wider base. 440source sells parts for one particular customer only... the owner of a Big Block Mopar... and that makes my shopping day a lot easier.

I'm not saying there aren't other ways to run a business - just that there's usually a reason behind what companies do (although not always since some companies seem to make decisions for no logical reason). The big chains are more flexible because they can be (cash flow) - that isn't necessarily what got them where they are today. Of course, the big chains are also the ones everyone complains about for squeezing out "the little guy" who is more customer oriented so figure that one out. No company can make every customer happy so you just have to look for the path that will please the most customers and let the rest find somewhere else to go. However, the company still has to make money in the mean time so that trumps all else. If the policy needs changed to shift this balance then that's what will happen at some point. I worked in the mail order business for a long time and it never failed to amaze me that someone would order something (usually heavy) Next Day Air and then (after receiving the item) expect the freight charges to be dropped because they were too high. We always confirmed the shipping charges and total cost for the order on the phone before ending the call so they knew - and agreed to - the cost before the order printed in the warehouse. Why should the company have to eat the cost for the customer's inability to comprehend simple math? Or their lack of planning which put them in that spot to begin with? Sure, it would be a nice thing to do that for the customer but it's not the smart thing to do. To be honest, the decision to refund the money was based on past order history and not what the customer may or may not order in the future.

Also, the customer is NOT always right. I was a bartender for several years and only once did a manager second guess my decision about a customer (I had cut them off). He lost a bartender and a pile of regular customers in the process. Cliche's are mostly true - but words like "always", "never", "all", and "every" are used way more often than they should be. The more specialized the business the more often the customer is wrong.

Troy

totally agree with these statements.  again, i empathize with dspaulding, but you cannot expect one company to react to and provide the exact same service as another company.  where dspaulding takes his money now is his business, and 440source may have lost a customer, but i can guarantee you that their policy has enabled that company (in the long term) to provide a larger array of mopar specific parts at prices that even the lower economic status hobbyists can partake in.  where one customer goes, another comes into play.

this microcosmic review of dspauldings transaction with 440source cannot be held in reference to other large, high volume entities.  you are comparing apples to oranges then.  ultimately, its any of our decisions to identify what businesses will receive my money.  dspauldings transaction does not make me question whether or not I will buy from 440source, but rather it makes me focus on being sure of the components i actually desire/need.  Its not 440source's responsibility to tell me what i need.  I am the consumer, and if I need information, then I need to find it.

I am sure dspaulding could sell that bolt kit on here or on another mopar website, like many people do who order the wrong stuff or have changed directions.  that is how the other guys get great deals afterall   I know i have done it, and have read on both forums as the reasons why other members sell brand new stuff...  how many times have you read an ad that states" changed my mind and went another direction, here is what i have to sell?"

[Mefirst]

Allthough the "Source"... for them not to accept a return/exchange on a brand new $500 set of pistons seems rediculous. The guy i'm talking about ordered a set of .030 overbore slugs for his 440 stroker build and it turned out the block wouldn't clean up at .030 and he needed to go bigger and tried to exchange them for the .055 pistons. No deal 

Ron

Im no expert but thats a good exaple of how NOT to go about building an engine or any thing really -Why do people order internal parts for an engine before the block is even machined I at least lernt that first machine the block, this way one knows what one has to work with, then order the internal parts, not the other way around....

-Yes, I would be kinda pissed at the shop where I bought the pistons, but the truth is, in my opinion, that the most blame is on myself if I did something that silly...

My

/Tom

[General_01]

I ordered the 383/496 kit from 440Source. I took a block I bought, which I was told had already been bored to .030, to my engine builder. He checked it and told me it was actually .031. I thought about going to .040 over and asked about my options on here and then called 440Source. I then decided to go with the .060 over kit. I did not order the stroker kit from 440Source until my engine builder said the block was good. I did not have to try and return anything, but I waited to order my stuff like I did because I knew the return policy and did not want to get stuck holding the bag on a stroker kit or spend money on another block.

I am sorry that you feel you experienced poor service. I disagree. I agree with what Troy has stated in his previous posts. I can understand that you are disappointed in their return policy, but I think you do 440Source a disservice by starting this thread with "Poor service from 440 Source". You may as well have started the thread with "I can't read". Both statements are over the top and unwarranted.

My 

[HKCharger]

you didnt read the fine print before placing the order and are mad at them? Am I reading that right? Here is some cheese for you.

[derailed]

Why is it that so many people think they are special? Why should companies be expected to treat you differently than everyone else? What if 440Source took this return and everyone knew about it? There would be hundreds of people mad when their returns are refused because "that one guy" was allowed to do it. Why was he so special?

How is everyone going to know if they let this one guy slide and im sure they probably have let others under certain circumstances, maybe it was somone that knew somebody there but thats beside the point. I understand where your coming from but maybe there policy should take into consideration certain things like an even swap on an unopened part for somone who made a simple mistake and is willing to pay shipping to exchange that part. I could see if years had gone by but 7 months is acceptable. No one would be on the loosing end and you would maintain a good customer relationship.

[firefighter3931]

but i can guarantee you that their policy has enabled that company (in the long term) to provide a larger array of mopar specific parts at prices that even the lower economic status hobbyists can partake in. 

I can't see how that statement is even relative to the discussion. DS was not trying to return hardware for a SB chevy here....this is an item that they carry in their inventory and would have no problem reselling. I could see the point if this was a special order or custom one off part.... but that's not the case.

I am sure dspaulding could sell that bolt kit on here or on another mopar website, like many people do who order the wrong stuff or have changed directions. that is how the other guys get great deals afterall I know i have done it, and have read on both forums as the reasons why other members sell brand new stuff... how many times have you read an ad that states" changed my mind and went another direction, here is what i have to sell?"

Sure reselling the parts is allways an option. I remember sending a set of brand new pistons to Kansas a few years back for a discounted price.....it's allways nice to help out fellow board members who are operating on a tight budget. 

Im no expert but thats a good exaple of how NOT to go about building an engine or any thing really -Why do people order internal parts for an engine before the block is even machined I at least lernt that first machine the block, this way one knows what one has to work with, then order the internal parts, not the other way around....

-Yes, I would be kinda pissed at the shop where I bought the pistons, but the truth is, in my opinion, that the most blame is on myself if I did something that silly...

My

/Tom

Tom, i have to agree but at the time the block was in the shop and the machinist told him it would clean up at .030 but upon further inspection the pitting in 2 of the cylinders was deeper than it appeared. He trusted the machinist's judgement and got burned....hey $hit happens. 

Had the slugs been purchased at Mancini or Summit it would have been "no problemo" for an exchange. 


Like i said before ; the 440 Source stuff is well priced and descent quality....not top shelf mind you. I have some of their parts and will purchase from them again in the future, but i'm also very aware that once purchased....i own it. It would be nice if they were just a bit more lenient with their return/exchange policy. 



Ron

[RD]

but i can guarantee you that their policy has enabled that company (in the long term) to provide a larger array of mopar specific parts at prices that even the lower economic status hobbyists can partake in. 

I can't see how that statement is even relative to the discussion. DS was not trying to return hardware for a SB chevy here....this is an item that they carry in their inventory and would have no problem reselling. I could see the point if this was a special order or custom one off part.... but that's not the case.

I meant that by adhering to their policy, they will not incur larger costs which in return, will be thrown back onto the consumer.  hence, by adhering to this policy, they do not have to raise prices, which in turn allow the lower economic status hobbyist to afford good, decent products.  when they stop adhering to their policy, the proverbial "passing of the buck" goes to higher prices.

I am sure dspaulding could sell that bolt kit on here or on another mopar website, like many people do who order the wrong stuff or have changed directions. that is how the other guys get great deals afterall I know i have done it, and have read on both forums as the reasons why other members sell brand new stuff... how many times have you read an ad that states" changed my mind and went another direction, here is what i have to sell?"

Sure reselling the parts is allways an option. I remember sending a set of brand new pistons to Kansas a few years back for a discounted price.....it's allways nice to help out fellow board members who are operating on a tight budget. 

boy i remember that and cant thank you enough! hehehe

[royt440]

My mechanic told me the block was bored 30 over so I ordered the whole enchilada stroker parts.  Come to find out, he had really gone 50 over.  Now I've got pistons and rings for a future build.

[Musicman]

Personally... If my machinist checked out my block, and then told me to buy "this", and it didn't work because "he screwed up"... he's the one that's going to eat it, not me.

I can't believe this thread is still going 

[dspaulding70]

Since I started this thread.....it is probably right for me to make my last comment on it before we give musicman a corinary.  A couple of days have passed and I have also read all of the previous postings on this topic.  I would like to end by saying that I never blamed 440 source for the error in the order.  I did not pay attention to the extremely limited return policy time frame as I have had no issues EVER with others such as Year One, Summit, Chargerspecialties, etc. on returns.  MY FAULT!

By posting my experience, I was not trying to be Cindy Sheehan and lead a rebellion against the establishment.  My previous experience with 440source was a typical customer/business transaction and they delivered exactly what I ordered and did everything right.  Ken, the salesman on the phone was extremely helpful when I was working on placing the second order.  I just disagree with their return policy (now that I am intimately aware of it) especially when I am in the process of spending more money with them.  Right or wrong.....it is just my personal opinion.

I have admitted in a previous post that in hindsight, I should have titled the thread a little differently because some think the title is misleading.  I do not believe that someone will boycott 440source just because of my story and I would be very disappointed if they do.  I just wanted to inform others of my experience so they would be knowledgeable.

Thanks to all of you that took the time to offer comments and opinions, both for and against.  Now it is time that I move on to the most important task at hand......finishing my car!!!!!

dspaulding70