Vibrations

[FLG]

Wow...good luck with her. Those walls look like crap 

[firefighter3931]

Pistons were lowcompression instead of the HP the previous owner payed for, so why the biggervalves and portjob?

Is there a stamping # on the piston ? 2266 or 2355 possibly ? How far are the pistons in the hole with the engine at tdc ?


If they are indeed the low comp 2266's with an open chamber head and composite head gaskets that would go a long way to explaining the poor performance. You could easily have 8:1 compression in that engine. 


Couple that with a large camshaft and poor tuning and you see the results. 


Big valves don't allways translate into improved performance. The bowl area beneath the valve needs to be opened up and the chambers need to be deshrouded. Some heads that are poorly rebuilt with sloppy work will end up flowing less than a stock casting. Of course the shop makes it sound good to the customer and gets to bill for installation of new parts on the premise that "performance" will increase. 

The bores looks worse then the ones in my Chargerengine with it's 10000+ miles. What could have happend? Wrong honing? I will propably not get the pistonrings out without braking them. Am I looking forward to a total rebuild here?

Looking at those pics it appers that the piston to wall clearance was set too tight. Forged pistons need .001 clearance for every inch of bore diameter so roughly .0045-.0050 minimum on a stock bore. The forged aluminum will expand and drag along the cylinder wall creating the big mess you see as well as inducing lots of friction/heat which robs power. 


It looks like rebuild time to me....



Ron

[Belgium R/T -68]

Ron,
Am currently abroad but will remove the pistons next week. The distance between piston and deck was 3 mm.
Maybe it's the original bore?

//Per

[firefighter3931]

Ron,
Am currently abroad but will remove the pistons next week. The distance between piston and deck was 3 mm.
Maybe it's the original bore?

//Per

Per, if the piston to deck clearance is in fact 3mm that works out to .118 in the hole. With an open chamber head and a composite replacement gasket that works out to less than 8:1 compression. 

It's no wonder that the car felt so sluggish....

It's possible that those are stock replacement pistons and the block was just honed. You won't know until the machinist measures the bore.




Ron

[Belgium R/T -68]

Pulled the pistons today, indeed the engineblock has been bored. It's TRW 2266 pistons, 0,040 oversize. What I do find rare is that at the lower part of the bore there
is no signs of honing, maybe it was never done? Any influence on the high level of carbon?

Rod bearings (also new) looks terrible, you can feel the wear with your nails. Looks like all the dirt from cleaning the block was still there at assembly.

Pistons/rods were balanced, approx same weight and visible from the rods. Crankshaftbalancing has been done like I never seen before, everywhere it's possible to grind
or drill they have done it.

Will it now be enough to hone the block? I have a rotating assembly 0,040 I intended to use for my charger before I decided to go for a stroker so it would be super
if I could use that set. It has KB237040 flat pistons but I don't know what compression it will give with the heads on the engine today?

Concerning the heads, are they the reason for the amount of carbon everywhere? Guess I have to check for sealing.

[firefighter3931]

Pulled the pistons today, indeed the engineblock has been bored. It's TRW 2266 pistons, 0,040 oversize. What I do find rare is that at the lower part of the bore there
is no signs of honing, maybe it was never done?

The block would have had to been honed to fit the pistons properly....they probably set the piston clearances too tight and did a poor finish honing job. 

Any influence on the high level of carbon?

High levels of carbon is a tuning issue....mixture too rich or weak ignition....or a combination of both. A sparkplug with too cold of a heat range will also create lots of carbon buildup as well 

Rod bearings (also new) looks terrible, you can feel the wear with your nails. Looks like all the dirt from cleaning the block was still there at assembly.

Pistons/rods were balanced, approx same weight and visible from the rods. Crankshaftbalancing has been done like I never seen before, everywhere it's possible to grind
or drill they have done it.

It sounds like a hack job machining/assembly job inside there. Hopefully they didn't Fubar the crank too bad and it can be rebalanced properly. 


You might be able to get away with reusing this rotating assembly as long as there is adequate piston to wall clearance after the cylinders are re-honed. A machinist will have to mic the pistons and bores to see if that is possible.

You could transfer the rotating assembly from your other engine over into this block but the KB pistons would have to be larger than +.040 to achieve the correct fit. KB hyper pistons also require tighter clearances and wider ring end gaps than a standard forged piston so you have to find a machinist who understands this and can follow directions to the letter ! 


What is the bore spec on your KB's ? What is the advertised compression ratio ?


With the 2266's and an open Chamber head your static compression ratio is low. With a stock converter and 3.23 gears none of the cams you are using are very suitable. If i were picking out a cam for that build it would be a custom grind Engle split pattern k54/k56 on a 110* lsa installed on a 106* intake centerline. This cam would restore all the missing bottom end power your car is missing and make lots of vacuum for PB and easy carb tuning.....basicly transforming the car from a pooch into a tire frier ! 



Ron

[Belgium R/T -68]

Ron,
Funny you mentioned the K56, I happens to have one ment for the charger but will as you know use the K60 for the stroker! 
The KB237 should give a comp of 10,3 with a 84cc head but I guess the -906 is 88cc? I would like to use the new pistons, Eagle rods and the
balanced crank from the charger in this engine so what instructions do I give a machineshop who has no experience in our engines but have a very good
reputation for machining all other european engines? Degree of honing? 

[firefighter3931]

Ron,
Funny you mentioned the K56, I happens to have one ment for the charger but will as you know use the K60 for the stroker! 
The KB237 should give a comp of 10,3 with a 84cc head but I guess the -906 is 88cc? I would like to use the new pistons, Eagle rods and the
balanced crank from the charger in this engine so what instructions do I give a machineshop who has no experience in our engines but have a very good
reputation for machining all other european engines? Degree of honing? 

The KB237's with your open chamber heads and the K56 cam would be an excellent match. 

Compression should be around 9.5:1 which is fine for pump gas. Hopefully they are large enough for your current block 

What over-bore are the 237's ? 


Here's a link to the KB instruction sheet for hyper piston fit & installation. Print it off and make sure the machinist follows the directions to the letter ! This is extremely important...failure to follow these directions will result in engine failure and one big mess !!! 


http://kb-silvolite.com/clearance_pop.php




Ron

[Belgium R/T -68]

They are just 0,040. Will bring the printout and a piston to the shop. Thanks Ron 

Will check the crank further tomorrow, maybe it's a cast. Could explain the vibrations.

[firefighter3931]

They are just 0,040. Will bring the printout and a piston to the shop. Thanks Ron 

Will check the crank further tomorrow, maybe it's a cast. Could explain the vibrations.

Maybe bring the block to the shop as well and have the machinist mic out the bores and measure for taper. Have him measure the KB pistons and then you will be able to make a decision based on those measurements. 

I would also bring a couple of the 2266 forged slugs as well for measurement. It's possible that those might be reusable should the bores be allready too large for the .040 oversize KB's 

Let us know what he says....


Ron


Ps. If you can....post some pics of the crank. If it is indeed a cast crankshaft that would explain the vibrations. Below is a pic of Cast VS Forged for identification purposes.

[Belgium R/T -68]

The number 010 is stamped 2 times so I guess it's a forged crank but with a lot of material grinded and drilled away for balancing with standard pistons and rods? 

I am still looking for my vibrationproblem I guess.

[Belgium R/T -68]

1 moore

[firefighter3931]

Sheeesh !  That's quite the hack job on your crank ! 

I can't imagine it needed that much grinding to balance out. The 2266 pistons weigh very close to a stock piston and usually the factory balance is very close. 



Ron

[Belgium R/T -68]

Just my opinion Ron, that together with the welded piece on the converter maybe  made the vibrations?

I did some "homemeassuring" with my digital tool and feelergauges and compared with some other parts in my garage.

Topring used in GTX engine had 0,00787" ringgap, same ring in my newly bored 0,040 chargerblock gave 0,0157"

GTX block inside bore selfmeassured 4,357", chargerblock 4,359"

TRW piston meassured on skirt 4,360", KB 4,358"

Take it as homemade meassurement but it indicates that you were right that the pistonclearence were to tight. I can't even get my thinnest feeler between
the wall and piston. With the TRW in the chargerblock I can.

This gives me hope that I can use the KB pistons after some machinework but gives me worries about my chargerblock, I should have waited with the machinework
with that one untill I had the strokerkit (on the way). I didn't think about the importance of clearence, I thought 0,040 was 0,040 

[l8rg8r]

by my figures that is .003 clearence on your pistons yep to tight I could be wrong but I think .005-.007 would be closer to what you want 

[Belgium R/T -68]

Things get worser, checked cylinder 4 moore carefully and the "craters" you see it's really feelable with the finger. How serious it is or if they are removeable
I don't know. If a rebore is needed I'm really serious concidering to ask myself why I am busy with this hobby.

[firefighter3931]

Assuming that your measurements are accurate then yes....the piston to wall clearance was too tight. The "witness marks" on the cylinder walls seem to bear that theory out. 

Bring the block to the machinist and see what he has to say....it might need a larger overbore to clean up the cylinders which would make your current pistons unusable in this block. You might be able to get by with sleeving just that one hole if the other cylinders can be made close enough to run with either the KB's or TRW 2266's.

Another option would be to use the block for your other project....assuming that it hasn't been bored out too big either. 

Then this block could be used for your stroker build.

A valuable lesson has been learned here.....don't bore anything until you have the parts in hand. I learned a long time ago to bring the parts to the machinist before any machinework was done....have everything measured...then bore the block to match the pistons. 



Ron

[Belgium R/T -68]

Ron,
Indeed I have learned a very expensive lesson here in many aspects. Now looking into my options:

The GTX beeing a vert in excellent condition needs a -69 block to keep up the value, long term would be to look for a -69 block.
Short term would be to use a -68 block with standard bore I have, intended for a Challenger I have coming over later this year.
Use the balanced rotating assembly (incl the KB pistons, K56 and eddy heads) wich was initially ment for the charger but since I bought a
440source stroker kit for that one it's available. In that way the GTX gets on the road again and I can look for a correct block without stress.
In that way I can build the GTX engine according to -69 HP spec fitting the rest of the car.
The Chally project wouldn't start untill the charger is ready anyway.
The block for the Charger is the matching numbers block but  unfortunately then already bored 0,040 without pistonfitting 

Any help with my desiciontaking is appreciated.

//Per

BTW, learned a lot about pistonclearence here but what about maximum clearence? Read on the KB site that they can take some but no figure was mentioned.
Is it the noice that will be the biggest issue?

[six-tee-nine]

Per,

Two things :

1) Think good before deciding on a guy to do your machinework...... We do have good engine builders and machinists here BUT very few of them have little to no expierience with V8 engines.
And if they do, it's mostly Chebby or Ferd. If you don't want to go trough a hassle again next yearwith your engine, then I advise you to talk to someone like Pascal from "Sixpack" for instance to help you get a good machinist or (why not) get your machinework done via him. I'm pretty sure you'll get your engine back in the best possible cond.

2) Your 440 from the GTX was .40 over you mentioned? right? In that case it does'nt mean your engine is a boat anchor now you can still have it bored again or even sleeved if necessary.
Get the crank checked and see if it's junk or not.
In the best case you'll need 8 new pistons, in the worst, 8 pistons an a crank. Hardware like gaskets, rod and main bearings will ben needed anyway.
I don't see why you should hurry, winter is jumping on us fast now here so I don't see too many nice driving days coming for this year...


I hope to make you get everything in a line here, and I also hope to see you soon again (that means our crate has arrived and I'm damn curious to see my interior stuff)...

Greetz


Koen

[firefighter3931]

I guess you need to define what the GTX is going to be used for. My guess is that you plan to cruise the car and it's not a hot rod...correct ?

If that's the case, the most economical way to get it back into service would be to use the existing rotating assembly, assuming the crank is servicable. It sounds like you have a "spare" forged crank laying around that came out of the Charger engine....which could be pressed into service if the mangled GTX crank is too far gone.

How i would fix it : Bring the block in and have the bores measured....from the looks of things it needs to be honed out for increased piston clearance with the TRW pistons....if you can hone it out and clean up at .006 over the measured diameter of the TRW's then you're good to go.  You might have to sleeve one cylinder but that's no big deal.    Have the rotating assembly balanced and you're back in business. To make it run descent, the custom Engle cam (k54/k56) i specced will work fine....run it and enjoy the car. With a stock converter & 3.23's this will be a very nice driving/cruising car with lots of low end torque. The key to making it run good is to not overcam it with the low compression....make the cam work with the existing combination....don't build an engine around a cam. 


On a cruiser type build the e-heads are a bit of a waste....i would save them for the stroker build. 



Ron

[Belgium R/T -68]

Koen,
Nice to hear from you! I will use a machineshop in Antwerp with good reputation and his work on my charger block and crank looks super.
Thr container is still in Miami waiting to be full, or we fill it up ourselves  or wait for another car needed to go to Antwerp but with
financial disaster everywhere that can take a while. I am going to Crazy Sunday with the Chrysler 300, are you coming?

Ron,
Indeed the GTX is suposed to be a cruiser giving people a ride when they get married or whatever so it needs to be available. Without customers my
hobby of restoring Mopars wouldn't survive financially. Second thing is that the block in GTX today is a non HP 70 wich also makes my desicion easier to take.

I will bring the -68 (ment for the Chally) block to the machineshop together with the KB pistons, build the engine with crank and rods/pistons already balanced,
eddyheads, K56, RPM manifold ( parts ment for the charger). In that way the GTX gets on the street again and the Chally engine well tested 

The Charger will have the strokerkit, 440source heads and K60, hopefully the pistons will fit in the bored block otherwise new solution has to be found.

I will look for a -69 HP block to build a GTX engine according to factory spec to increase/keep the value.

The GTX block will be kept as spare for any car.

Maybe complicated but I find it a good compromise.

What about maximum pistonclearence?

[firefighter3931]

What about maximum pistonclearence?

With the TRW/Speedpro forged pistons you need 5-6 thousandths to allow for thermal expansion....aluminum grows when it gets hot.

With the KB hyper pistons the bore clearance is tighter and the ring end gaps are larger than on a conventional forged aluminum piston....the KB link explains this in detail.


What are you running for exhaust on the GTX ? Most headers are a PITA with an angled plug head like the Edelbrock RPM 


Ron

[Belgium R/T -68]

Ron,
The GTX has stock exhaust manifolds, Charger and chally will have TTI.

//Per

[six-tee-nine]

Per,

I won't be making it sunday,  already booked for other things......again.

About filling the container : no prob, i'll be ordering sheet metal, subframe connectors, torque boxes and other stuff soon now.

[Belgium R/T -68]

Ron,
Any special instructions for my machinist concerning honing for my Sealed Power plasma-moly rings? 

//Per