Vibrations

[SeattleCharger]

   Start with easiest possibilities first. A balance issue won't make your engine lazy. From my experience, lazy performance and shakes/vibrations would be an issue with distributor, plug wires, or plugs. Check that the spark plug wires are routed correctly, If so, I would get a new set and put them on for troubleshooting purposes. It never hurts having an extra set laying around.
  Also, if it is electronic ignition, check the 2 wires from the distributor. If they have been hooked up backwards, it will run very sluggish. The plug will only go on one way, but check the whole harness and make sure the wires haven't been spliced.

It would be nice if it was that simple, but it does kind of sound like a misroute of wires, I did that this spring putting wires on f 150 v8, even doing them one at a time and being careful, somehow I mixed up 5 and 6 on cap, started it up and was like, wth, it ran, but vibrated, I went to manual, got diagram, checked em, and sure enough, switched the two wires back that were in wrong place, and smooth,   even when I was being aware and careful I thought, and having done these a bunch, I still did that, it was crappy day and windy and rain starting, was hurrying a little maybe, it can happen,   like I said, if only it was this simple, heh, probably isn't

[Belgium R/T -68]

Redid the comptest today because the car had been standing for a couple of days and I thought maybe a lifter lost oil. At warm engine the "bad one" raised from 130 to
145 and higher ones sanked from 185 to 165. I guess it's back to timing and ignition/carb? Tomorrow will take cylinder by cylinder for sparks/cables. Would camwear at breaking in cause vibrations?

//Per

[Belgium R/T -68]

Have done wet comptest without any difference, have change plugs and wires on by one without result, plugging vacuumadvance without results, 3 different carbs and it runs
best with the smallest one (600) but for the rest no difference. Change coil and checked other wiring, distributor is a new MP electronic. Additional symptoms I didn't mension
is high fuelconsumption and easily warm, the resonance sound I've been nagging a long time about is definatly from the left engineside. My Chrysler 300 -69 with untouched 440 runs better and cheaper. Is it time to open up the engine? I don't see anything moore I can do on the outside. 

//Per

[aifilaw]

if I had to place money on it, it would be a failed lifter or cam lobe on that cylinder. But yes, sounds like its time to pull the valve covers and valley pan at the least.

[Belgium R/T -68]

It hurts open an engine with almost no mileage but why was I not surprise when I removed the valve cover on left side and saw 1 of the bolts holding the rockershaft
was loose. I already putted the timegear right once on this engine.

[Belgium R/T -68]

The lifters are looking good but intake camlobe cylinder 3 looks "burned"? The cam is still in the engine but if I compare this MP cam with the one I took out of the Charger engine
this one looks like it has the 10000 miles that the charger had. Will take it out tomorrow and take some pics. If somebody have some pictures of camwear please post them.

//Per

[GreenMachine]

Here's one with some wear. 






Sorry, don't have any with a real cam failure.

[Belgium R/T -68]

Camshaft is out and some lobs looks like they have a strange wear for beeing new but is that enough to create low compression and a shaking-vibrating engine/car?
I meassured with a digital micrometer and got differeces between exhaust lobes but can ofcourse also be faulty measuring from me. Question is if I should pull the heads aswell? 

//Per

[Belgium R/T -68]

Another one.

[firefighter3931]

The pics are kind of blurry so it's hard to see the abnormality. 

Try measuring a few exhaust lobes and compare those numbers to the ex lobe on #3. Do the same thing for the intake side....measure a couple and compare. 


** measure the entire lobe with your mic.....from the heel to the nose and compare those numbers. What cam is that ?



Ron

[Belgium R/T -68]

Ron, grindnumber 960697, MP originalspec -69 440 HP according to prervious owner. Numbers I found on the bottom.

//Per

[aifilaw]

Sounds like a great opportunity to upgrade the camshaft to something that does not suck.

[Belgium R/T -68]

Better pics!
//Per

[firefighter3931]

Ron, grindnumber 960697, MP originalspec -69 440 HP according to prervious owner. Numbers I found on the bottom.

//Per

That number does not match anything in the current MP catalog. The closest one is the 284/484 hydraulic which bears pn 5007697...the last 3 digits match 

The pics are better and the cam doesn't look too bad....i've seen worse. 

Where did you find that number ? Stamped on the end of the cam ?

If the cam in question is indeed a 284/484 that would explain the lack of (low speed) power and poor idle charachteristics. To really work well that grind needs a 2800 stall and 3.91-4.10 gears.


Did you ever get an idle vacuum reading before disassembling the engine ?


Just a few thoughts : the engine was built by someone else so you don't know how much compression it has. It could have 8.5:1 actual compression with a cam that is too big and the wrong combination of stall speed and rear end gearing. All this adds up to a potential mismatched combination. Tuning is a big part of the performance game, especially timing. BB mopars like lots of base timing and spark lead so if you had a lazy timing curve with little advance at idle this will also contribute to poor performance. The carb could be totally wrong for the application based on the rest of the engine build.


There are a LOT of variables here. 



Ron

[firefighter3931]

When turning the distributor I can almost get the vibrations dissapear but then the car isn't driveable.

//Per

This indicates a tuning issue. The engine is telling you it wants more timing at idle. Low compression builds that are overcammed will need lots of spark advance (base timing) in order to idle properly. Then you have to tune the timing curve to make sure the mechanical advance is correct....and the speed of the curve is correct.

Most BB engines like 15-20* at idle (depending on the cam and compression ratio) and 36-38* total at 2500-2800 rpm. 



Ron

[Belgium R/T -68]

Ron,
I found it on the back of the cam. I agree it can't cause the low compression and the whole car vibrating and that resonance sound. The total car is build to strict original so I would be surprised if he would put a wilder cam in it if he didn't got the wrong one, even datecoded cables and hoses. My headace is now if it shouldn't  better pull the heads when I am that far anyway? Regarding camshafts I have an K56, an comp CL21-223-4, an CL21-224-- and a Edelbroeck RPM cam sitting here since I couldn't make up my mind for my Chargerproject if you remember, you finally convinced me for the K56. The charger will be for next year anyway.

//Per

Added a picture of the wearpattern of the rockesr, is that normal? Moore pressure on the intake?

[aifilaw]

I think Ron summed up your problems.
Leave the heads on, buy a better camshaft that will work with your stall/rear gears and give you a better idle while still maintaining better power across the board than that purple 484 (garbage grind)
You should be back on the road with that and able to leave everything else the same. Tuning your distributer becomes the next step, and with a different cam in there it should be much more forgiving.

If you want some examples of a far superior cam, perhaps you have mentioned this already in the thread. But what transmission, if auto what stall, what rear gears.

[Belgium R/T -68]

Standard converter but that he said about the cam aswell, 3,23 gears and that I know since I opened it. Have in worst case a 3,55 gear and a 2500 converter which was forseen
for the charger but I can always order new ones for it. That project is delayed due to the paintshop.

//Per

[firefighter3931]

The Rockers look fine....nothing to worry about there. 

Are there any other markings on the cam ? Is that the only stamping ? Can you post a pic of the rear journal with the stamping ?


I can't remember if this cam was ever degreed in properly or if the marks were simply lined up ? I've seen a few chains sets that had the gears mis stamped and that threw the cam timing off several degrees. I've also seen cams that were ground incorrectly. That's why i allways degree stuff in....then you know for sure. 


I'm gonna send that Cam number to a friend that works for MP and see if he can get some specs....hold tight. 




Ron

[Belgium R/T -68]

Ron, best picture I could get. The three colourdots is pink, orange and purple. Would you see the comp cam CL21-223-4 enough beeing a  convertible with hopefully mainly driving around
people getting married?

//Per

[Belgium R/T -68]

With the car I got 10 years of saved reciepts for the resto and guess what! The cam has partnumber 4452783 and fits with his story of beeing a standard camshaft.
Guess those heads has to go off anyway. 

[Belgium R/T -68]

While draining the oil I was checking for moore sources for my vibrations, I could turn the bolts for the enginemount-K-frame a couple of turns and I found his suspicious
converterweight. Prev owner states he bought a Chrysler standard converter but the engineshop wanted that one aswell for the balancing of the engine, normally they
should be zerobalanced from factory?
//Per

[gers1968rt]

That's probably the problem right there. A forged crank should not have any weights on the torque convertor, unless it is needed for zero balance.

[Belgium R/T -68]

If I change converter do I then need to rebalance the engine if the machineshop included the converter? Doesn't look like a MP balancingweight to me.

[aifilaw]

mopar BB engines should* be internally balanced, and then, if done right, externally balanced after purchasing a zero-balance converter and harmonic dampener...
sounds like that's part of your problem