Layson's Restoration Busted at Carlisle by Police!!

[hemigeno]

so today it's repo parts they are going after, but what about later when small vendors or average Joes are selling 30-40 year old original parts at these shows. is Chrysler going to want a percentage on every old original part that is being sold and made money on since it carries their part # and trademark? 

When Chrysler made the parts originally, they didn't lease or rent them to the purchasers.  That means they cannot dictate how they are handled once they leave Chrysler's plant or dealerships.  For that reason, the swap meet vendors of used and (legitimate) NOS parts are safe. 

The problems come in when someone makes a reproduction part, no matter how good or bad, and puts identifying marks on it that make it APPEAR that the part came from Chrysler.  In that instance, the manufacturer and/or vendor are making a representation (even if it is an implied representation) that the part is legitimate. 

I agree that on the surface it seems heavy-handed to send six cops and a ninja to arrest people over some marks on plastic lenses.  However, the law clearly state that it is Chrysler's exclusive right to use the Pentastar.  Layson's chose to sell "illegally branded" products even after having been warned not to do so.  They were gambling that Chrysler wouldn't have the nerve to shut them down, and Mr. Layson doesn't have anyone to blame but himself.  Whether he tried to go through the licensing process or not, whether Chrysler has licensed anyone else to make lenses, or what the licensing fee actually is makes no difference in the eyes of the law.  We don't want the cops to be selective in which laws they enforce when they're protecting our property, so why should we cast stones at them for enforcing the laws in favor of Chrysler?  Because they have deep pockets?     Puhleeezz... Chrysler is not the Sherriff of Nottingham, and Dave Layson is not Robin Hood.

There might indeed be much more to the story than is being disclosed in the search warrants, other tidbits of news info, and hints of shady dealings that have been bandied about.  It boils down to the fact that Layson's cannot argue they have permission to sell lenses with Chrysler's trademark on them. 

[JimShine]

You just made me think of something else. How much of the old parts in question were realy "made" by Chrysler? They even outsourced most of that stuff even back then. Lenses, emblems, decals, door panels, arm rests, dash pads, mouldings and numerous other items were made by other companies and shipped to the factories to be installed on the cars.

[69_500]

Hmmm, so that is the ninja that Troy was talking about on Saturday.

I guess we spent too much time looking at the cars to see all the action going on Saturday Gene. If we had been over there I'm sure I could have snapped some photo's from far enough away that they wouldn't have noticed. Nice 300mm lens, could have taken pictures from on top of the hill where chris had his car.

[Blown70]

You just made me think of something else. How much of the old parts in question were realy "made" by Chrysler? They even outsourced most of that stuff even back then. Lenses, emblems, decals, door panels, arm rests, dash pads, mouldings and numerous other items were made by other companies and shipped to the factories to be installed on the cars.

While that is true I am very sure there was a STRICT contract in place allowing them to USE the logo for manufature of Chrysler corp. Parts.  And when no longer needed was limited, and not allowed to be used.

I am sure you would know about this.

[Neal_J]

To me, its simple.  Chrysler owns the rights to their trademark and can decide who, and under what terms, other entities may use it. Layson's seems to have repeatedly sold many items with the trademark without Chrysler's permission.  Futher, Layson's continued to do so despite several warnings.  That's illegal so Chrysler callled the men in blue to enforce the law.  Were I Chrysler, I'd do the same.

Neal

[Joshua]

This is just like "The Days of Our Lives".....

[John_Kunkel]

However, the law clearly state that it is Chrysler's exclusive right to use the Pentastar.  Layson's chose to sell "illegally branded" products even after having been warned not to do so.  They were gambling that Chrysler wouldn't have the nerve to shut them down, and Mr. Layson doesn't have anyone to blame but himself.  Whether he tried to go through the licensing process or not, whether Chrysler has licensed anyone else to make lenses, or what the licensing fee actually is makes no difference in the eyes of the law.  We don't want the cops to be selective in which laws they enforce when they're protecting our property, so why should we cast stones at them for enforcing the laws in favor of Chrysler?  Because they have deep pockets?     Puhleeezz... Chrysler is not the Sherriff of Nottingham, and Dave Layson is not Robin Hood.

Layson is claiming that his booth had a mix of parts, some were his own repop products that carry no Mopar logo and others containing Mopar logos were acquired by him from legally licensed vendors with the intention to resell them which is legal. All it takes is a paper trail to prove that the parts in his booth with Mopar logos were legally acquired....time will tell.

I wouldn't be surprised if his claim that Mopar used a small town police force to harrass him is true. They've done it before.

[Shakey]

You just made me think of something else. How much of the old parts in question were realy "made" by Chrysler? They even outsourced most of that stuff even back then. Lenses, emblems, decals, door panels, arm rests, dash pads, mouldings and numerous other items were made by other companies and shipped to the factories to be installed on the cars.

The vendors were making "proprietary" parts, which means they were made specifically for Chrysler.  Even the vendors / manufacturer of the parts sourced by Chrysler were not allowed to sell them to anyone but Chrysler.  The tooling was owned by Chrysler.

[rav440]

Layson is claiming that his booth had a mix of parts, some were his own repop products that carry no Mopar logo and others containing Mopar logos were acquired by him from legally licensed vendors with the intention to resell them which is legal. All it takes is a paper trail to prove that the parts in his booth with Mopar logos were legally acquired....time will tell.

I wouldn't be surprised if his claim that Mopar used a small town police force to harrass him is true. They've done it before.

so your saying haressment and false arrest well it that is the fact , then i hope LAYSON is CHRYSLERs new CEO with out them knowing it  coz if that were to happen to me id damn sure own CHRYSLER or a better part of it .

[hemi-hampton]

Hmmm, I just put a brand new set of Rear Bumper Bracketts on a 69 Road Runner I'm restoring. These parts had the Pentastar & factory part #'s on them even though they were just made last month in Taiwan or somewhere there in Asia. Knowing when & where these were made sure made me feel like I was holding a Counterfeit part in my hand. But, this seems to be OK with everybody LEON.

[JimShine]

You just made me think of something else. How much of the old parts in question were realy "made" by Chrysler? They even outsourced most of that stuff even back then. Lenses, emblems, decals, door panels, arm rests, dash pads, mouldings and numerous other items were made by other companies and shipped to the factories to be installed on the cars.

The vendors were making "proprietary" parts, which means they were made specifically for Chrysler.  Even the vendors / manufacturer of the parts sourced by Chrysler were not allowed to sell them to anyone but Chrysler.  The tooling was owned by Chrysler.

That was my point. Even originally the parts were not made by Chrysler, but were "official" when they featured the Pentastar. The OEM factories actualy DID produce lenses for the aftermarket after so many years. We have some of these lenses for vans. The mold was modified to feature the factory name and not represented as Chrysler products.

[Aero426]

If you have not watched this TV news report from Layson's home area , you should.

It is interesting to hear the spin the uninformed print and TV media are putting on this. They along with the Asst Police Chief have no understanding that many of the items in question were represented and sold as reproductions of parts no longer offered by the manufacturer. It is being sensationalized as fraudulent parts, bogus parts. Sounds a whole lot sexier than "unlicensed reproduction parts".

Particularly disgusting is the Dennis Kohr sound byte.  Gee, I wonder if he ever used a reproduction part on a customer car his shop worked on?  He must have an axe to grind.  Here is the link.

http://www.komonews.com/news/25455904.html?video=YHI&t=a

[A383Wing]

Yea...it's been all over the news here...I hope Dave gets to meet "Bubba" real soon.....that way he will get what he did to everyone else.

Bryan

[hemigeno]

However, the law clearly state that it is Chrysler's exclusive right to use the Pentastar.  Layson's chose to sell "illegally branded" products even after having been warned not to do so.  They were gambling that Chrysler wouldn't have the nerve to shut them down, and Mr. Layson doesn't have anyone to blame but himself.  Whether he tried to go through the licensing process or not, whether Chrysler has licensed anyone else to make lenses, or what the licensing fee actually is makes no difference in the eyes of the law.  We don't want the cops to be selective in which laws they enforce when they're protecting our property, so why should we cast stones at them for enforcing the laws in favor of Chrysler?  Because they have deep pockets?     Puhleeezz... Chrysler is not the Sherriff of Nottingham, and Dave Layson is not Robin Hood.

Layson is claiming that his booth had a mix of parts, some were his own repop products that carry no Mopar logo and others containing Mopar logos were acquired by him from legally licensed vendors with the intention to resell them which is legal. All it takes is a paper trail to prove that the parts in his booth with Mopar logos were legally acquired....time will tell.

I wouldn't be surprised if his claim that Mopar used a small town police force to harrass him is true. They've done it before.

If what you relayed is true, then Mr. Layson's version of the story flatly contradicts what is in the Search Warrant application.  According to that, the parts in question were identified by several Chrysler reps as being unauthorized reproductions.  How they arrived at that conclusion is beyond me - I'm not a parts expert.  That's probably why the police made Hakim & Co. identify the parts before sending in the ninja squad.

It's just hard for me to believe that after having been warned repeatedly by Chrysler about selling unlicensed parts, Mr. Layson all of a sudden decided to bring only authorized merchandise to resell and/or unmarked reproductions.  Maybe it's just the Missourian in me showing through, but I'll have to see that before I believe it.

[bull]

Some information about additional raids on Monday at Layson's in Washington state:

http://www.thenewstribune.com/news/local/story/412500.html

Also a response to the Carlisle raid by Dave Layson or his attorney...

http://blogs.thenewstribune.com/crime

XS

"Chrysler Corp. started investigating the business three years ago and tried to get the man to stop selling the suspected forged parts. He was also overcharging customers."

Overcharging customers? Every vendor had better run for cover if that's a legitimate legal complaint. And who overcharges customers more than your local Chrysler/Dodge/Jeep dealership? I've never paid more for a part than when I've gone through the dealership.

Again, what is Chrysler producing for the classic car market? I know you can get some performance engine parts from them and a few NOS parts are still out there floating around (the Charger roof emblem comes to mind) but what part is Chrysler currently producing that I can put on my 68 Charger besides heads, valve covers and a starter? Where's the interior trim and the sheetmetal, etc.? What is the real gripe here? Is this any different than Napa selling parts that you can get at the dealership for three times the money?

[hemigeno]

Is this any different than Napa selling parts that you can get at the dealership for three times the money?

Yep, it's totally different...  that is, unless Napa starts putting the Chrysler pentastar on their parts without a licensing agreement -- in which case the ninja squad will come a-knockin...   

[TUFCAT]

This is a press release written by Layson's attorney:

Lakewood, WA – Dave Layson, owner of Layson's Restorations of Lakewood, Washington vehemently denies any wrongdoing in connection with the investigation that resulted in the searches of his properties in Kent and Lakewood, Washington, seizures of his inventory, and his arrest at the annual Chrysler at Carlisle car show in Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

The investigation comes as the culmination of a long-running dispute between Layson's and the Chrysler Corporation and is the result of competitor's complaints about the market share Layson's has been able to capture manufacturing long-discontinued parts for the collector car hobby. Competitors have long been frustrated by Layson's ability to bring these parts to market, and sell them at fair prices to consumers.

The suggestion that excess or ill-gotten profits have been generated is totally without merit. The costs associated with engineering, producing, marketing and shipping these long forgotten pieces is substantial. Layson's has always sought to produce the best part at the lowest cost for the consumer and has done extensive legal research to support its position in this.

Layson manufactures parts without Chrysler's trademark Pentastar logo and under the law, is completely justified in so doing. Layson's has always sold the parts it manufactures as "Reproductions" and has bent over backwards to make the distinction clear because frankly, the new parts are far superior to the originals.

In addition, Chrysler has yet to roll-out a meaningful licensing program to include manufacturing standards, exclusivity agreements, marketing agreements or a uniform royalty structure.

Because of that fact, and years of turnover and indecision at Chrysler, Layson's Restorations, like many other similar vendors, has not opted to participate in the company's ill-conceived and yet to be fully developed licensure program. As a result, Chrysler has tried to intimidate and coerce vendors in this industry to pay into what amounts to a, "Black hole" of a non-existent and yet-unformed licensure program.

Parts that carry the Pentastar logo seized from Layson's were all purchased from "licensed" vendors, and are not so called "Forged auto parts" as the mis-informed authorities acting at Chrysler's behest allege.

Layson has records and purchase orders to document the acquisition of these parts and is confident that a more careful investigation will prove these facts. While Layson's does not subscribe to Chrysler's claim of licensure, other mis-informed vendors have been intimidated into doing so, and subsequently have produced parts bearing the trademark Pentastar. Again, any of those parts in Layson's possession were legally purchased from those vendors and the documents exist to prove it.

Layson's believes that the Chrysler Corporation wrote a criminal complaint that constituted a, "Wish list" of sorts. Chrysler was then able to persuade investigators in tiny North Middleton, PA to carry their water, which in turn lead to a request for assistance from the Lakewood, WA Police Department.

The searches, seizures and resulting loss of business have been entirely excessive. The serious verbiage contained in the charges, excessive bail, and the use of clearly excessive criminal charges are outrageous.

The questioning of employees, the seizure of personal property and the blind speculation about, "Exploding" investigations by Lakewood law enforcement officials who have no background in this case or trademark law are way, way out of line, are libelous on their face and have already caused Layson's Restorations serious and substantial damages in the marketplace.

Efforts to recover the company's reputation, inventory and lost revenues will be vigorous.

[bull]

Is this any different than Napa selling parts that you can get at the dealership for three times the money?

Yep, it's totally different...  that is, unless Napa starts putting the Chrysler pentastar on their parts without a licensing agreement -- in which case the ninja squad will come a-knockin...   

Was Layson's doing that? Sounds like they are claiming just the opposite.

[superduperbee]

This is a press release written by Layson's attorney:



The investigation comes as the culmination of a long-running dispute between Layson's and the Chrysler Corporation and is the result of competitor's complaints about the market share Layson's has been able to capture manufacturing long-discontinued parts for the collector car hobby. Competitors have long been frustrated by Layson's ability to bring these parts to market, and sell them at fair prices to consumers.

And now the rest of the story..................., see what happens when you sell parts at fair prices to consumers

[moparstuart]

 

[hutch]

This is some good drama aint it stuart.

[hemigeno]

Is this any different than Napa selling parts that you can get at the dealership for three times the money?

Yep, it's totally different...  that is, unless Napa starts putting the Chrysler pentastar on their parts without a licensing agreement -- in which case the ninja squad will come a-knockin...   

Was Layson's doing that? Sounds like they are claiming just the opposite.

Bull, I agree that it SOUNDS like they are claiming the opposite.  That's why I posted this in response to John Kunkel's comment:

However, the law clearly state that it is Chrysler's exclusive right to use the Pentastar.  Layson's chose to sell "illegally branded" products even after having been warned not to do so.  They were gambling that Chrysler wouldn't have the nerve to shut them down, and Mr. Layson doesn't have anyone to blame but himself.  Whether he tried to go through the licensing process or not, whether Chrysler has licensed anyone else to make lenses, or what the licensing fee actually is makes no difference in the eyes of the law.  We don't want the cops to be selective in which laws they enforce when they're protecting our property, so why should we cast stones at them for enforcing the laws in favor of Chrysler?  Because they have deep pockets?     Puhleeezz... Chrysler is not the Sherriff of Nottingham, and Dave Layson is not Robin Hood.

Layson is claiming that his booth had a mix of parts, some were his own repop products that carry no Mopar logo and others containing Mopar logos were acquired by him from legally licensed vendors with the intention to resell them which is legal. All it takes is a paper trail to prove that the parts in his booth with Mopar logos were legally acquired....time will tell.

I wouldn't be surprised if his claim that Mopar used a small town police force to harrass him is true. They've done it before.

If what you relayed is true, then Mr. Layson's version of the story flatly contradicts what is in the Search Warrant application. According to that, the parts in question were identified by several Chrysler reps as being unauthorized reproductions. How they arrived at that conclusion is beyond me - I'm not a parts expert. That's probably why the police made Hakim & Co. identify the parts before sending in the ninja squad.

It's just hard for me to believe that after having been warned repeatedly by Chrysler about selling unlicensed parts, Mr. Layson all of a sudden decided to bring only authorized merchandise to resell and/or unmarked reproductions. Maybe it's just the Missourian in me showing through, but I'll have to see that before I believe it.

(emphasis added)

Again, Mr. Layson can claim anything he wants at this stage of the proceedings.  What else do people say in situations like this??  Perhaps I'm just a skeptic by nature, but I spent 6 months working on a construction project in a medium-security prison and met only ONE person in the whole place who said they were guilty.  The rest were all framed, their lawyer should be sued for malpractice, the judge was out to get them, the prosecuting attorney was a racist, etc. etc.   

I don't know what the truth of the matter is any better than anyone else on here - we're all just armchair prosecutors or defense attorneys. 

[moparstuart]

  It's alway in your best interest to deny deny deny  , or so the guilty think     

[craigandlynda]

wonder if the cops will auction off the seized items?

[69_500]

You mean you actually heard one person who was locked up actually say they were guilty Gene? We play softball against many of the prisons around here, and after 6 years of doing this and meeting hundreds of men who are locked up I've never heard any of them actually say they did what they were in for. They always say, "I was accused of _________"

Interesting though that they wouldn't complain about copying the lens and part numbers, but just the logo. I know the logo is protected by copywrite laws, but I would have thought they would have some jurisdiction over the part numbers on them as well.