Gear Vendors or Heads

[dkn1997]

I've been doing some sidework lately and have some bucks to spend...I have always wanted aluminum heads and a gearvendors, but will probably only be able to afford to do 1.  budget is about 2500.

my charger has an already decent 440 in it.  stock 346 heads with bigger valves and bowl blending.  the car ran a best of 13.094 in the 1/4 with 3.55 gears, headers, eddy rpm intake, eddy carb. car now has 3.91's, stock exhaust manifolds, mighty demon 750. i'd put it at a mid 13 sec car as of now.

here are my options...

1.  gear vendors behind my 727

2.  440 source stealth heads, new cam. leave the manifolds, though...and maybe put 3.23's in it or some other highway friendly gear.

the goal is to have the car still be fast, but also be more highway friendly.  I'm leaning towards the GV now because I have the money to do it and in the future, it's less to start saving for to get heads....

what would you guys do?

[1970RT]

Next year there will be a 60 MPH national speed limit so the overdrive wont be as necessary.  (I hope this isnt true but I think it will be.)

[dkn1997]

I'm turning over 3000rpm at 60 right now! btw, it's still 55mph here on long island, it never changed,and everyone goes 85 anyway...

[Hemidoug]

Gearvenders!!!! it's the only thing that will pay for itself over time. the money you save can go to the heads later on......

[dkn1997]

Leave it to the guy with elephant under his hood to talk me into saving fuel!!!!

Doug, I was already leaning towards the GV, and posts like yours seem to solidify that.   I love when people tell me what I want to hear....

now where to purchase one?  I had considered a used one, but since no mopar guys seem to be parting with them, I'd be stuck with having to swap out the adaptor from a GM or Ford...so I want new.  I know this ziggs buy on ebay sells them cheap, but shipping might kill me to NY.  anyone in NY know of a good place to buy?  I do have a friend who works at a speed shop, maybe he can get me one for cost..

[Silver R/T]

Id probably go with GV for now, heads are chep and you can get them later

[Mike DC]

Next year there will be a 60 MPH national speed limit so the overdrive wont be as necessary.  (I hope this isnt true but I think it will be.)

They'd have to be morons to do that again.  The situation is nothing the same.

Our highways are twice as crowded as they were in the 70s, the cars are twice as high-geared, the motors are already half the size, and the bodies are twice as aerodynamic. The cost/benefit ratio of a lowered speed limit would be nothing even resembling the 1970s speed limit drop that Congress remembers. 

With all the extra time we'd spend idling in traffic jams, I'll bet the idea would hardly do much more than break even on gas usage today. 

[HKCharger]

Next year there will be a 60 MPH national speed limit so the overdrive wont be as necessary.  (I hope this isnt true but I think it will be.)

then ill be getting lots of speeding tickets.

[472 R/T SE]

dkn1997, you turned me on to the Ziggs buy so thank you again.  Luckily they're 50 miles away so I saved in shipping too.

On our last trip to Seattle I fueled up and got on the freeway and didn't stop again until it was a fuel stop and got a little over 14 mpg, that's with a speedo reading slow.  I realize owning these old relics shouldn't concern the fuel mileage but at over $4 a gallon any little bit helps. 

Your motor will thank you.

[Mike DC]

 
An overdrive is worth it for numerous reasons.  Less wear and tear on the (expensive & quick-wearing) motor, less noise/vibration in the cabin, etc.  The mileage is only part of it.



I pointed this out on another thread:  Modern cars have cruising ratios so much (numerically) lower than our musclecars it's not even funny.

Their axle gears are usually in the 3.0-3.25 range.  They have full lockup converters in the trannys.  And even with all that, they still have an overdrive ratio that's usually way down in the 0.65-ish range.     

It has a lot to do with how much more practical they really are, and we should be following the habit now that we've finally got the hardware to do it feasibly.  Realistically, just the cruise-along loping speed on a modern interstate is usually about 75-80 mph once you get away from the urban centers.  We look ridiculous in these "fast cars" spinning the motors at 3800 rpm or something and it's just nursing 60 mph.

[BrianShaughnessy]

OD everytime.

Putzing along in the slow lane sucks.

[gordo1968charger]

i love my gear vendors.running 4 10s is nt any good without it.i even managed to fit it myself
the only chewy bit was taking off the 727 tailshaft and fitting the gv adapter.
wiring was as easy as wiring in a cars stereo.
get the heads later.

[68RT4ME]

I too run a GV in my '71. I have 3:91 gearset and in overdrive, I'm turning about 3300 RPM at 85 mph. I get pretty good milage if I drive like a normal person too. I got mine directly from GV. They were good to deal with. When I got it, I had my neighbor install it as he runs a Trans shop in town. He'd never installed one before but it wasn't a problem at all for him. I'd go with the GV over the heads.

I would think that you wouldn't get the full benefit of the Alum heads running the stock exhaust manifolds on the car instead of Headers. Bang for the buck in that case say's go with the GV. 

[moparstuart]

Leave it to the guy with elephant under his hood to talk me into saving fuel!!!!

Doug, I was already leaning towards the GV, and posts like yours seem to solidify that.   I love when people tell me what I want to hear....

now where to purchase one?  I had considered a used one, but since no mopar guys seem to be parting with them, I'd be stuck with having to swap out the adaptor from a GM or Ford...so I want new.  I know this ziggs buy on ebay sells them cheap, but shipping might kill me to NY.  anyone in NY know of a good place to buy?  I do have a friend who works at a speed shop, maybe he can get me one for cost..

tell me more about the ziggs buy ??

[dkn1997]

Leave it to the guy with elephant under his hood to talk me into saving fuel!!!!

Doug, I was already leaning towards the GV, and posts like yours seem to solidify that.   I love when people tell me what I want to hear....

now where to purchase one?  I had considered a used one, but since no mopar guys seem to be parting with them, I'd be stuck with having to swap out the adaptor from a GM or Ford...so I want new.  I know this ziggs buy on ebay sells them cheap, but shipping might kill me to NY.  anyone in NY know of a good place to buy?  I do have a friend who works at a speed shop, maybe he can get me one for cost..

tell me more about the ziggs buy ??

a while back, I spotted them selling gv's for really cheap on ebay. something in the 2200 neighborhood including shipping with no tax.  a few members jumped on it and then GV stepped in and told them not to sell for that price.  I would still think that they will have a good deal on them, though. search ebay for them.  ziggs rod shop or something similar. maybe zeggs. I forget

[mikesbbody]

I know im in the minority here, but i think the GV is a gimmick if it were me id change back to 3.55's which imo are fine on the highway id get the heads, then the GV later having said that if you do alot of highway driving maybe the GV isnt such a bad idea but i would never have one on my charger. 

[dkn1997]

more of a sceamin deal than I remembered.  I just found this and it was 2050.00!!!

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,24783.0.html

[moparstuart]

 so what is the current price for one of these units ?

[gordo1968charger]

is anyone not happy with there gear vendors?

[68RT4ME]

so what is the current price for one of these units ?

Around $2200-2500.00. I'm not sure. Can't remember since it's been a while.

[472 R/T SE]

I won one of the auctions with a last second bid of $2101.  The other dude bid $2100.    And they're local so I was able to save by picking it up.  This was March '07.

RECHRGD & Ranger Max went through them as well and I think the best they got was Ziggs paid for shipping.  I think they got some kind of discount on the unit but not a lot.    AFAIK, the smokin' deal was a fluke but they'll still work with ya'.

GV's is like tti in that they don't want their dealers discounting the product. 

[moparstuart]

I won one of the auctions with a last second bid of $2101.  The other dude bid $2100.    And they're local so I was able to save by picking it up.  This was March '07.

RECHRGD & Ranger Max went through them as well and I think the best they got was Ziggs paid for shipping.  I think they got some kind of discount on the unit but not a lot.    AFAIK, the smokin' deal was a fluke but they'll still work with ya'.

GV's is like tti in that they don't want their dealers discounting the product. 

so the unit you got fit fine (BOLT IN ) you didnt have to buy any additional stuff ?   Sound like what i need in the birdable ?

[Hemidoug]

I know im in the minority here, but i think the GV is a gimmick if it were me id change back to 3.55's which imo are fine on the highway id get the heads, then the GV later having said that if you do alot of highway driving maybe the GV isnt such a bad idea but i would never have one on my charger. 

Ignorance is bliss after all......

It's obvious that you have never been in or driven a car with a GV......otherwise you would not be calling it a gimmick. I'd say 75 mph and 3000 rpms with 4.10 gears is no gimmick.

[472 R/T SE]

Only mod was to shorten the driveline and move the crossover in the exhuast.  Supposedly some models require some tunnel persuasion but mine didn't.

I retired the #'s tranny and had another built w/ a little more aggressive shift kit and went with a different convertor. 

There's no reason you can't mount the GV tail shaft to your existing tranny and be good to go.  Only extra part bought was a manual switch in the place of the dimmer switch over ride.  Me feet no work. 
Depending on your exhaust configuration you may need some work.
   

Only problems I have now are the guys' I cruise with can't keep up.  Screw that slow lane, it's nice being able to stay in the fast lane.

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,26511.0.html

Ziggs:  http://myworld.ebay.com/ebaymotors/zigsstreetrods

[mikesbbody]

I know im in the minority here, but i think the GV is a gimmick if it were me id change back to 3.55's which imo are fine on the highway id get the heads, then the GV later having said that if you do alot of highway driving maybe the GV isnt such a bad idea but i would never have one on my charger. 

Ignorance is bliss after all......

It's obvious that you have never been in or driven a car with a GV......otherwise you would not be calling it a gimmick. I'd say 75 mph and 3000 rpms with 4.10 gears is no gimmick.

I did not expect my comment to be popular im just saying i would never want one in my car (not even for free) no, i have never had one a friend has and he regrets it claiming it to be a gimmick and i agree. i know this wasnt one of the options, but id much rather go with a 4-5 speed of course its not within the mentioned budget price... my 3.55's are fine for the highway imo 

[Hemidoug]

Well.....opinions are like...well you know. Anyway, I wouldn't give mine up for anything...and as for those Kessler POS 5 and 6 speeds...you can keep 'em. The trans wouldn't hold up to the kind of HP the Hemi is putting out now. Probably snap that trans in two, not to mention all the modifications you have to make and their well know customer service record (which sucks). Not to mention I have 8 gears to choose from.....

[mikesbbody]

now that you mention it i have heard a few bad stories about the keisler 5+6 speeds more to it that "no cutting" like they say (ill never be able to afford one anyway  i guess its a 4 speed for me (one day...) its seems like the GV will be bought reguardless of anyones opinions. I think for me, its just seems like alot of $ to spend on a auto  i will say this, my friend is the only one to say anything negative about the GV everyone else seems to love them 

[Mike DC]

 
On paper, I think the General Motors 4L60E tranny swap looks like a better setup than anything else. 


The tranny is pretty strong, its case is pretty small, the 1st gear is very low, the 4th OD gear is very high, and the converter has a lockup.  I don't see all five of those things with any other automatic option for big-block Mopars. 

[moparstuart]

 buddy of mine just did the GM swap and it was a total nightmare bought it from kiesler and they are no help at all.  They just leave you hanging!
Now that it's all lined out 1 year later he says it does preform good .  But as far as durability we sell a ton of used GM Truck and car 4l60e's  they go out all the time !   I consider it more of a small block trans durability wise .

[68RT4ME]

I know I'm in the minority here, but i think the GV is a gimmick if it were me id change back to 3.55's which imo are fine on the highway id get the heads, then the GV later having said that if you do allot of highway driving maybe the GV isn't such a bad idea but i would never have one on my charger. 

Ignorance is bliss after all......

It's obvious that you have never been in or driven a car with a GV......otherwise you would not be calling it a gimmick. I'd say 75 mph and 3000 rpms with 4.10 gears is no gimmick.

I did not expect my comment to be popular I'm just saying i would never want one in my car (not even for free) no, i have never had one a friend has and he regrets it claiming it to be a gimmick and i agree. i know this wasn't one of the options, but id much rather go with a 4-5 speed of course its not within the mentioned budget price... my 3.55's are fine for the highway imo 

I'm wondering what kind of problem did your buddy had with his GV? Did he ever say what was wrong? Mine has worked as advertised. I have 3:91's and I can run Hwy speeds all day without any issues. It holds up just fine when I romp on the car. Either off the line or at speed. I especially like it when I want to dust by some car on the Hwy. I simply push down on the floor button and it drops to 3rd gear. I let it rev up to about 5500-5800 and push the button again to go into 3rd over and away I go. I've been just passed the 120 mark a few times with allot of pedal to go before it tops out and only the tires (BFG's) have kept me from finding out just how much more I can go but I'll bet it's a whole bunch more.

The engine doesn't have to work so hard (Rev) just driving around with the GV engaged so that can only be good. I get better mileage than before I had the GV. It's nice and quite while driving around since it's not revving so much and I run Hooker Supercomps Ceramics with 2 1/5 inch pipes, Flowmaster 50 series mufflers. It's plenty loud at WOT but once in overdrive, not bad at all. I don't see the downside here. The initial cost may be a factor but it's still allot cheaper than the Kieslers (about half the cost) and stronger to boot. 

[Mike DC]

But as far as durability we sell a ton of used GM Truck and car 4l60e's  they go out all the time !   I consider it more of a small block trans durability wise .

I think Keisler sells the 4L60Es having been overhauled with a bunch of durability mods above the factory setup. 

I'll bet the stock 4L60E would probably still live pretty well in a B-body as long as the rear tire grip is kept within normal bounds.  Even a Dana 60 can be killed by a Mopar with enough vehicle weight & traction. 


A 4L80E would be a lot more durable, but I think it would also be too big to fit into the Mopar chassis without cutting.

buddy of mine just did the GM swap and it was a total nightmare bought it from kiesler and they are no help at all.  They just leave you hanging!

Not surprising.  Wouldn't be the first time.  (That's why I only praised their GM tranny setup "on paper" in my post.)


   

[mikesbbody]

I'm wondering what kind of problem did your buddy had with his GV? Did he ever say what was wrong? Mine has worked as advertised. I have 3:91's and I can run Hwy speeds all day without any issues. It holds up just fine when I romp on the car. Either off the line or at speed. I especially like it when I want to dust by some car on the Hwy. I simply push down on the floor button and it drops to 3rd gear. I let it rev up to about 5500-5800 and push the button again to go into 3rd over and away I go. I've been just passed the 120 mark a few times with allot of pedal to go before it tops out and only the tires (BFG's) have kept me from finding out just how much more I can go but I'll bet it's a whole bunch more.

The engine doesn't have to work so hard (Rev) just driving around with the GV engaged so that can only be good. I get better mileage than before I had the GV. It's nice and quite while driving around since it's not revving so much and I run Hooker Supercomps Ceramics with 2 1/5 inch pipes, Flowmaster 50 series mufflers. It's plenty loud at WOT but once in overdrive, not bad at all. I don't see the downside here. The initial cost may be a factor but it's still allot cheaper than the Kieslers (about half the cost) and stronger to boot. 

Im very happy for you that it performs the way you want/expect it too to answer your question i think it just wasnt what he was expecting (i dont know what he was expecting to be honest) i did get to go for a drive in the car and i couldnt see what all the fuss was about but you are right, alot cheaper than the kiesler (im starting to wonder about them to be honest...) for me, id go the 4 speed route  each to his own i guess...

[dkn1997]

Ok, I guess I waited a bit too long because these god damn things are 2800 bucks now!!  killing me.