Stroked 440 combo question

[IllCharger]

I have been reading all of the combos posted in the proven engine combo section.  I just dropped my 440 off at the shop to have it torn apart.  I would like to build a stroker motor that will make 600-650 HP, and I will run a fogger kit 200 shot.  The car will see strip and street duty.  I have looked at the Indy stroker package, and the 440source stroker kits.  My build aspirations seem to be more aggressive than the other tried combos on here.  Any suggestions on which way to go?  I would like to run high 10's with the combo in a 74 charger.  Chasis is already done-10pt rollcage, minitub, 9inch rear with 4:11, 35 spline moser axels, frame tied, ladder bar suspension.  Would the block be able to handle the power, or will I be better off going aftermarket block.  Thanks for any suggestions.

[mally69]

Your gonna need a maincap girdle to be safe with that factory block. BCR sells them, thats the one that I have.

[BLAM]

I agree with Mally get the BCR (Aluminum Caps and Girdle) if you want to run 10s.  The performance levels you are looking for I would stay away from kits and buy the parts you need to meet the capabilities of the block.  Performance drag racing costs and good parts is the best insurance.  The other reason I would stay away from the kits is you are forced down specific piston paths with fixed compression heights which may yield compression ratios you don't want.

I would first get the block cleaned and sonic check the bores to make sure you can build your stroker safely.  If it passes get the engine decked even, bores cleaned up, and the new aluminum caps align honed.  Then pick your crank, decide if you are going long rod or short rod stroker do the math and calculate the compression depth of pistons needed to get zero deck with your squared block and order custom pistons from Diamond.

Of course big oiling capability is required, deep pan, 1/2 inch pickup, and appropriate oil passage mods to the block.

Max Wedge port heads correct intake and big carb.

I don't know why you need the laughing gas?  The stroker with the right cam will easily make easy 700 HP without the headaches of bottles and the risk of melted pistons.

If you can afford an after market block and are really serious about the bottle maybe that is the way to go.

[oldschool]

I have been reading all of the combos posted in the proven engine combo section.  I just dropped my 440 off at the shop to have it torn apart.  I would like to build a stroker motor that will make 600-650 HP, and I will run a fogger kit 200 shot.  The car will see strip and street duty.  I have looked at the Indy stroker package, and the 440source stroker kits.  My build aspirations seem to be more aggressive than the other tried combos on here.  Any suggestions on which way to go?  I would like to run high 10's with the combo in a 74 charger.  Chasis is already done-10pt rollcage, minitub, 9inch rear with 4:11, 35 spline moser axels, frame tied, ladder bar suspension.  Would the block be able to handle the power, or will I be better off going aftermarket block.  Thanks for any suggestions.
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quote

i would not use a stock block,much past 700-750 h.p.
aluminum main caps are not good for alot of street use.
if you use a aftermarket block,you have no worrys,plus you can go large cubic inches and not need the bottle.
for street/strip a big motor is the way i would go.

[IllCharger]

I do know the car will see more street use than track.  The engine has been torn down now and will be taken to the machine shop to have it checked.  I asked around about the girdle, and I have been told that they don't work/waste of money.  I need to do a little more research on that one.  With most of the stroker kits the final compression ratio is 10 to 1 which is pump gas friendly.  The guy assembling my motor is telling me I need more compression to run the 10.80 number I'm looking for with the juice.  Without the juice I would be looking at low 12's/high 11's.  I have read in these threads that if I got too high on the compression 11 to 1 or higher that I will have troubles running pump gas.  I am just trying to see which way to go here.

[mally69]

I do know the car will see more street use than track.  The engine has been torn down now and will be taken to the machine shop to have it checked.  I asked around about the girdle, and I have been told that they don't work/waste of money.  I need to do a little more research on that one.  With most of the stroker kits the final compression ratio is 10 to 1 which is pump gas friendly.  The guy assembling my motor is telling me I need more compression to run the 10.80 number I'm looking for with the juice.  Without the juice I would be looking at low 12's/high 11's.  I have read in these threads that if I got too high on the compression 11 to 1 or higher that I will have troubles running pump gas.  I am just trying to see which way to go here.

First off your actual compression will all depend on how big your cam is. If you have a large cam that bleeds some cylinder pressure, you can run a higher static compression ratio. Also the girdle is NOT a waste of money, and as for aluminum caps not being good for the street I have to disagree with that one. Aluminum may be a softer metal BUT it dampens harmonics which causes cap walk. Yes, when aluminum caps first came out people did not want to accept that they are actually better to use becuase of that. What the girdle does is it ties all the caps to the block, basically to eliminate cap movement and the aluminum main caps to absorbe the harmonics to also prevent cap walk. It also strengthens the block becuase its bolted directly to the pan rail and its thick to. I am running 11.1 compression with my stroker and it will run on 93 oct, I had Dwayne Porter at porter racing heads work my heads over and Dwayne also speced out a cam for me so everything would come out correct and be able to run 93 oct with that compression and have no trouble. With a good matched build you should have no trouble reaching your goals WITHOUT the juice.

[IllCharger]

Thanks for the replys.  I think I am going with the 440source 512 Stroker kit..  I have to see which heads I will run (Stealth or Indy 440-1).  I will keep you guts posted on the progress.  Thanks for the replys.  I will also be getting that girdle for insurance.

[Chryco Psycho]

Wow no comparison between Indy 440-1 & stealth , the stealth are the small head , the indy is Huge , Compromise would be the Indy SR or EZ heads between the ends of the range

[IllCharger]

Correct me if I am wrong.  The Indy 440-1 heads with a matched intake and cam with the 512 stroker kit should be in the 600ish horsepower range.

[firefighter3931]

Correct me if I am wrong.  The Indy 440-1 heads with a matched intake and cam with the 512 stroker kit should be in the 600ish horsepower range.

Sure, it will make 600hp quite easily but the -1 head is more of a race piece. Stuff like offset rockers, raised exhaust ports, external oiling make it less user friendly for a street build.

A better choice would be the Indy EZ-1 which uses standard rockers, internal oiling and the exhaust port is in the stock location. This is a large max-wedge intake port head so you will need the matching intake manifold. Plan on using a hood scoop because it won't fit under a stock hood.




Ron

[Challenger340]

In My Opinion,
A 512 Kit, properly built for pump fuel @ 10.6:1, using a Flat Tappet Solid Cam and cleaned up 440-1 Heads, is easily capable of 650 H.P, and MORE,
"reliably" on the street.

What this means,
again,
"In my Opinion Only", is that your BEST option is to utilize an Aftermarket Mega-Block at THAT level.

I've done 4 bolt Cap conversions, Aluminum Cap Conversions, Girdles, you name it.
NO dis-respect intended to those who still go those routes, and we'll continue to do them for those that want "that".

My personal opinion is that you're still putting a "band-aid" on a stock Block, especially, if you are then, further contemplating a 200 shot of Steroids on top !

Just my 
If you're gonna spray a 200 shot,
stay with a Standard Inch type deal on the stock Blocks with main Studs/caps/Girdle, whatever,(440, 451, 472) on pump fuel @ around 550 H.P, and use good fuel in a pony tank for the Nos side.
Eddy's or Stealth will work fine.
"Cost Effective" way to go, and Plenty to motivate the 3rd Gen well into the 10's.


If you're gonna go a 512 Kit, and still want to add a 200 Shot, get a Mega Block, INDY 440-1, or EZ Heads, and HOLD ON  because you're going to the next level.
THAT, is capable of some serious car bending Torque & Horsepower !

Just my 

[IllCharger]

Well I need to see what happens at the machine shop with my block.  If I get the green light I will go 512 stroker without the NOS.  I will look at the Indy EZs, Stealths, or the RPMs.

[oldschool]

In My Opinion,
A 512 Kit, properly built for pump fuel @ 10.6:1, using a Flat Tappet Solid Cam and cleaned up 440-1 Heads, is easily capable of 650 H.P, and MORE,
"reliably" on the street.

What this means,
again,
"In my Opinion Only", is that your BEST option is to utilize an Aftermarket Mega-Block at THAT level.

I've done 4 bolt Cap conversions, Aluminum Cap Conversions, Girdles, you name it.
NO dis-respect intended to those who still go those routes, and we'll continue to do them for those that want "that".

My personal opinion is that you're still putting a "band-aid" on a stock Block, especially, if you are then, further contemplating a 200 shot of Steroids on top !

Just my 
If you're gonna spray a 200 shot,
stay with a Standard Inch type deal on the stock Blocks with main Studs/caps/Girdle, whatever,(440, 451, 472) on pump fuel @ around 550 H.P, and use good fuel in a pony tank for the Nos side.
Eddy's or Stealth will work fine.
"Cost Effective" way to go, and Plenty to motivate the 3rd Gen well into the 10's.


If you're gonna go a 512 Kit, and still want to add a 200 Shot, get a Mega Block, INDY 440-1, or EZ Heads, and HOLD ON  because you're going to the next level.
THAT, is capable of some serious car bending Torque & Horsepower !

Just my 


band-aid on a stock block,could not have said it any better!
when theese blocks were built,they were never intended for the power levels we see now.
if you are looking for 750 plus h.p.,and the ability to take alot of nitrous,and RELIABILITY,use an aftermarket block.






[/quote

[IllCharger]

I think I will stay with the stock block for now, and stay somewhere in the 600 h.p. range with no NOS.  I would like something that will put down descent numbers at the track, and be able to cruise around town on the weekends as well.  Since I already have the chasis pretty well taken care of I will build a big inch motor later using a aftermarket block, and use the stroker motor in another car down the road.

Question how do the EZ-1s, the Stealths, and the RPM heads compare to each other.  I am reading all the threads I can find about 512 stroker set-ups and the parts used.

[mally69]

Ez-1 will flow the best out of the three you mentioned, that is what is on my 512 except mine are cnc ported and which makes them called the ez-1 little easy 295.  I never used a set of eddy's but I have a set of stealths on my current 440..

Here is the link to my 512 build if you have any questions at all feel free to ask. 

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,31965.0.html

[oldschool]

 I use Indy's 295 CNC SR heads on 3 of my 500 inch motors.  They all make in excess of 700 hp. 
I have built a couple of 500 inch motors with the Edelbrock heads.  They work well too, but everything
being the same - they make about 70 - 80 hp less. 
The Edelbrock heads are easier and cheaper.  You can just bolt them on without mods.  The Indy's will
need specific headers unless you do the EZ SR heads.  They also need external oil lines and specific head
bolts.  IMO the Indy heads are the better heads for 500 inches and below.  They offer great top end power and
good driveability on the street. 
If you are going to drive this on the street, I can recommend a manifold to you - Indy's Dual Plane with a 1000 cfn
Holly Double pumper.  That is an awesome combo.  That is what I have used on the 3 of mine that make in excess of
700 hp with street driveability.      

[Challenger340]

"oldschool" has some VERY wise words there 

Another Head we've been seeing more of lately, might be worth a look, on these type builds up to 500", is the venerable B1BS,

The Prices must have dropped dramatically ?
I have no idea ?

Might be worth checking into, because the Customers quoted prices they paid, that I didn't believe, and don't wish to quote here. More than 1 guy.
Really Cheap !

The B1BS is still a VERY decent Head with a Good Cleanup Port Job, which is all we get paid to do.
Port 'em, Flow 'em, give 'em back.

[Challenger340]

 

[Mike DC]

 
An aftermarket block is more than just breakage insurance. 

Push the motor into those high power & cylinder pressure ranges, and sooner or later the stock block is gonna be costing you 20 horses just from the cylinder wall flex. 

[Animal]

Just a thought , if you're gonna spray the motor (300 +  )  60 thou quench is ideal , really got to decide if the motors gonna see more strip than street , ring package is also an important factor , aim for around .250 down on top ring , if the motors gonna see a lot of street driving then gas ported pistons will not be ideal , all depends on how much you wanna spray , cos once you start you'll want more.

Lots more to consider , the above post is a basis for a nitrous motor , not NA.

[firefighter3931]

I use Indy's 295 CNC SR heads on 3 of my 500 inch motors.  They all make in excess of 700 hp. 
I have built a couple of 500 inch motors with the Edelbrock heads.  They work well too, but everything
being the same - they make about 70 - 80 hp less. 
The Edelbrock heads are easier and cheaper.  You can just bolt them on without mods.  The Indy's will
need specific headers unless you do the EZ SR heads.  They also need external oil lines and specific head
bolts.  IMO the Indy heads are the better heads for 500 inches and below.  They offer great top end power and
good driveability on the street. 
If you are going to drive this on the street, I can recommend a manifold to you - Indy's Dual Plane with a 1000 cfn
Holly Double pumper.  That is an awesome combo.  That is what I have used on the 3 of mine that make in excess of
700 hp with street driveability.      

Oldschool, could you post a dyno sheet from one of your 500in builds with the ICH DP intake manifold....i've never seen one on the dyno. Interested in where the tq/hp peaks come in....


Thanks, Ron

[IllCharger]

Been out of town but I have read all of the feedback.  Lots of good info for me to consider.  Oldschool I would like to see the dyno sheet as well, but the combos you have with your cars sounds like somewhere in the neighborhood of where I want to be with mine.  The Indy products are looking real good to me right now with no spray.  Please post the dyno numbers for me if you can.

[oldschool]

Oldschool, could you post a dyno sheet from one of your 500in builds with the ICH DP intake manifold....i've never seen one on the dyno. Interested in where the tq/hp peaks come in....


Thanks, Ron

Here's the dyno sheet.  The yellow line is the current power level after dyno tuning, the pink line was the base line.  This is on a 68 charger with a hemi 4 speed, dana 60 with 3.54's, and stock steel magnum 500s. 

Check out that gain from adjusting timing and afr.  And look at that torque curve, its like a table. 

engine specs:
13.7 cr
295 cnc sr heads
indy dualplane
1000 cfm AED holley double pumper
tti step headers
MSD pro billet dist.
6-al box
comp. solid roller cam:272/276@.50  .661/.661
1.6 rockers

these are on a chasis dyno.

[IllCharger]

Wow!  Now thats what I am talkin about. 

[john108]

WOW
And that appears to be at the Wheels.

[firefighter3931]

Oldschool, could you post a dyno sheet from one of your 500in builds with the ICH DP intake manifold....i've never seen one on the dyno. Interested in where the tq/hp peaks come in....


Thanks, Ron

Here's the dyno sheet.  The yellow line is the current power level after dyno tuning, the pink line was the base line.  This is on a 68 charger with a hemi 4 speed, dana 60 with 3.54's, and stock steel magnum 500s. 

Check out that gain from adjusting timing and afr.  And look at that torque curve, its like a table. 

engine specs:
13.7 cr
295 cnc sr heads
indy dualplane
1000 cfm AED holley double pumper
tti step headers
MSD pro billet dist.
6-al box
comp. solid roller cam:272/276@.50  .661/.661
1.6 rockers

these are on a chasis dyno.

Very nice OS....killer torque curve. Nice to see the ICH DP pull so hard.....by far the best Dual plane manifold i've ever seen.    I'm sure the big roller cam and 13.7 compression are helping to carry the hp numbers up top. 

What type of fuel are you running in this badboy ? C-112 ?



Ron

[IllCharger]

Should I have my block zero decked for the 440source 512 stroker kit?

[oldschool]

Should I have my block zero decked for the 440source 512 stroker kit?

it depends on what compression ratio you are after. if you are looking for a pump gas motor i would let the machine shop determine that for you.

[oldschool]

yes ron,i use c 112. i buy it by the drum,  (many drums)!

[Rolling_Thunder]

you dont need anything like the Indy heads to make good power...    I built a 440--> 496ci engine with a hydraulic  cam, edelbrock rpm heads, dual plane intake, 10.75 compression, and @" headers...    it made around 614hp @ 6000rpm   and 613tq @ 4500rpm...

indy heads or even ported edelbrocks will just make more power though...    this engine is currently a street only piece.

[firefighter3931]

yes ron,i use c 112. i buy it by the drum,  (many drums)!

I figured as much 

How much is that stuff selling for nowadays ? 

Up here in the great white north i'm sure it's well over $10 a gallon 


Ron

[firefighter3931]

Should I have my block zero decked for the 440source 512 stroker kit?

it depends on what compression ratio you are after. if you are looking for a pump gas motor i would let the machine shop determine that for you.

Exactly. 

You need to determine what type of fuel you want to use and build accordingly. The correct piston for a pump gas stroker build will have an inverted dome (dish) to keep the static compression ratio livable with that type of fuel. The head chamber volume also comes into play as well.

So, pick a set of heads first and then pick the correct piston for the application. 



Ron