WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!

[The70RT]

Hell Oriely's want's 5.00 for a quart of house brand tranny fluid.  I was at a dealership that closed a couple months ago and bought about four cases of petrolium products for like 2 bucks a quart. Some were paying 2.50-3.00 go figure.

[375instroke]

I'm wondering because it says CF-2, CF/SJ only.  It doesn't say CJ-4/SM.  It doesn't say anything about emissions, either.

I just got 3 gallons of this Rotella T SAE30 at Walmart, so it can't be old stuff they had lying around.

[billssuperbird]

i use shell rotella t heavy duty motor oil sae 15w 40. is this ok in my 440.

[FLG]

New or old??

I was running 15-40 in my 400 for the past 2 years. Got some motorcraft oil for a good price so i just use that now...no problems at all.

The motor is about as old as the car though.

[billssuperbird]

i was told the 440 i have in my car is out of a 1973 state police car.

[375instroke]

The older CL rated Rotella has all the anti scuff additives in it. If it has the sunburst logo on it it is the new stuff. It has been a couple years since they did it now. I had fun trying to find it in 07. I found like 12 gallons and bought it all then. Im sure it's all gone now.

Do you mean SL?  Like I said, The Rotella I found was at Walmart, was SJ, and they restocked the shelf.  $11.50/gal.

[62 Max]

You guys need to go back to the beginning of this thread and read it all.There is a lot of good information.What you are buying now isn't what you were buying 5yrs ago.

[FLG]

i was told the 440 i have in my car is out of a 1973 state police car.

If its an older motor you should be just fine. Like i said, for 2 years ive used rotella, and now i used some motorcraft 15-40. No issues at all with my 400 motor.

The older engines still need that zinc, but its even MORE critical during breakin when things are wearing to each other and stresses are high.

[375instroke]

You guys need to go back to the beginning of this thread and read it all.There is a lot of good information.What you are buying now isn't what you were buying 5yrs ago.

What makes it that way, though?  Don't the specs have something to do with it?  What do the CF-2, CF, or SJ specs say as far as ZDDP go?  I thought the newer stuff has less of it due to the CJ-4 and SM specs, not just because they are newer.  If the oil says SJ, but not SM, wouldn't that mean it conforms to the older standard for ZDDP?  I have not read this.  I only see that the newer specs call for less ZDDP, not that newly manufactured oil must contain less ZDDP.

[Ghoste]

Blatantly stolen from Wikipedia;

API service classes
The API service classes[8] have two general classifications: S for "service" (originating from spark ignition) (typical passenger cars and light trucks using gasoline engines), and C for "commercial" (originating from compression ignition) (typical diesel equipment). Engine oil which has been tested and meets the API standards may display the API Service Symbol (also known as the "Donut") with the service designation on containers sold to oil users.[8]

Note that the API oil classification structure has eliminated specific support for wet-clutch motorcycle applications in their descriptors, and API SJ and newer oils are referred to be specific to automobile and light truck use. Accordingly, motorcycle oils are subject to their own unique standards.

The latest API service standard designation is SM for gasoline automobile and light-truck engines. The SM standard refers to a group of laboratory and engine tests, including the latest series for control of high-temperature deposits. Current API service categories include SM, SL and SJ for gasoline engines. All previous service designations are obsolete, although motorcycle oils commonly still use the SF/SG standard.

All the current gasoline categories (including the obsolete SH), have placed limitations on the phosphorus content for certain SAE viscosity grades (the xW-20, xW-30) due to the chemical poisoning that phosphorus has on catalytic converters. Phosphorus is a key anti-wear component in motor oil and is usually found in motor oil in the form of Zinc_dithiophosphate. Each new API category has placed successively lower phosphorus limits, and this has created a controversial issue of backwards compatibility with much older engines, especially engines with sliding tappets. API, and ILSAC, which represents most of the worlds major automobile/engine manufactures, states API SM/ILSAC GF-4 is fully backwards compatible, and it is noted that one of the engine tests required for API SM, the Sequence IVA, is a sliding tappet design to test specifically for cam wear protection. However, not everyone is in agreement with backwards compatibility, and in addition, there are special situations, such as "modified" engines or fully race built engines, where the engine protection requirements are above and beyond API/ILSAC requirements. Because of this, there are specialty oils out in the market place with higher than API allowed phosphorus levels.

There are six diesel engine service designations which are current: CJ-4, CI-4, CH-4, CG-4, CF-2, and CF. All others are obsolete. In addition, API created a separated CI-4 PLUS designation in conjunction with CJ-4 and CI-4 for oils that meet certain extra requirements, and this marking is located in the lower portion of the API Service Symbol "Donut".

It is possible for an oil to conform to both the gasoline and diesel standards. In fact, it is the norm for all diesel rated engine oils to carry the "corresponding" gasoline specification. For example, API CJ-4 will almost always list either SL or SM, API CI-4 with SL, API CH-4 with SJ ... etc.

[375instroke]

Blatantly stolen from Wikipedia;

All the current gasoline categories (including the obsolete SH), have placed limitations on the phosphorus content for certain SAE viscosity grades (the xW-20, xW-30) due to the chemical poisoning that phosphorus has on catalytic converters.

This is somewhat helpful, but still leads to another question.  The ZDDP was lowered by API SH, which came out in 1996.  The SJ came out in 2001, but the Wiki says only for certain grades, xW-20, and xW-30.  Are those examples, or the only two that have reduced ZDDP.  The Rotella I referenced was SJ and SAE30.  This still adds some uncertainty as to what's up.  I haven't been able to find what the standards actually say.  That would be the best way to figure it out, otherwise it's all hearsay.

[Ghoste]

The API website doesn't make it much clearer but the rule of thumb I've basically gone by is that anything SJ and since is bad.  

It may not be accurate but I didn't mind erring on the side of caution in this case.

[375instroke]

Well, their site says everything's backward compatible, and there's no problem with flat tappet cams.  Where are the blood sucking lawyers?

[Ghoste]

Yeah, I'm not buying that. 

[1Bad70Charger]

I am going to be running a new cam soon and until it goes in will also be running an additive along with Valvoline VRI Racing oil, 20W/50.

I heard great things about Lucas oil additive and its a BIG name in the high performance hot rod world and what's your guys take on Lucas oil additive?  

[1Bad70Charger]

I am going to be running a new cam soon and until it goes in will also be running an additive along with Valvooline VRI Racing oil, 20W/50.

I heard great things about Lucas oil additive and its a BIG name in the high performance hot rod world and what's your guys take on Lucas oil additive? 

[NorwayCharger]

I am going to be running a new cam soon and until it goes in will also be running an additive along with Valvoline's VRI Racing oil, 20W/50.

I heard great things about Lucas oil additive and its a BIG name in the high performance hot rod world and what's your guys take on Lucas oil additive? 

I am one of the guys that are very sceptical about oil additives.
I've tried a lot of them just out of curiosity, and not convinced that they are worth the money.
The only product i have had good result with is a stuff called QMI.
Lukas is one of the products that I've never tried.
I did a goggle of it http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=890132#Post890132

[Musicman]

That post concerns Lucas Oil Stabilizer, which is a fine product, but it has nothing to do with increasing your oils ZDDP levels...
I believe he was asking about Lucas TB Zinc Plus which is an additive designed to protect flat tappet cam systems.

[1Bad70Charger]

I know there is a lot of talk about running an oil addivite b/c of the low zinc levels in current oils.  Now I am figuring on just running full synthetic Valvoline 20W-50 motor oil in the summer, as I know that's great oil and b/c I have about 6 quarts of it laying around from the pro-street car I just sold several months ago.


My 440 engine was built about 3000 miles ago to stock 1970 440 specs and is running one of the flat tappet. hyd. Mopar Purple Cam Shafts, with Headers, and soon with a Proform 750 Carb, Eddy Street Dominator dual plane intake an a dynamic street/strip torue converter with 3.91 gears.  My long term plan is to build-up this 440 engine with Eddy Heads and an aggressive street/ strip cam, and get her making around 525 ponies/torque.  Car will be driven all over on the streets in the summer months hard at times and normal at times during regular traffic.


You guru's don't see any problem running a full synthetic motor oil in this engine do you?   Thanks for your reply.

[b5blue]

Not a guru but it MUST have plenty of ZINC or you will end up with a no tappet cam! 

[1Bad70Charger]

That post concerns Lucas Oil Stabilizer, which is a fine product, but it has nothing to do with increasing your oils ZDDP levels...
I believe he was asking about Lucas TB Zinc Plus which is an additive designed to protect flat tappet cam systems.

Where can I get TB Zinc plus?

Is it offered at large parts stores like Pep Boys, Auto Zone, etc. 

[Musicman]

Any place that sells Lucas Oil products will have it, or can get it for you. There are also plenty of on line retailers as well.

If I remember correctly... once the engine has been broken in... a 16oz bottle would be good for 2 oil changes, but don't quote me on that... You can call the folks over at Lucas and ask them, but I think the entire bottle raises the level to 5000ppm with a 5 qt change???

[Sublime/Sixpack]

With all the info in this thread it seems pretty obvious what one needs to do to protect the cam and lifters in our Chargers, but what oil would an owner of a late '70's, early to mid '80's car with a push rod type engine and catalytic convertor exhaust run? I have a couple such cars. If I don't run oil with the necessary amount of zinc the engine suffers, if I do run oil with the zinc then I ruin the catalytic convertors.

Any thoughts on this?

[1Bad70Charger]

Gut the cats, and you'll pick up a little power while your at it! 

[Sublime/Sixpack]

I wish it were that simple, but the cats are necessary for the yearly Imissions test required by the State.