WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!

[b5blue]

Anyone keeping track of what cam-valve spring combos are failing,some of us use very strong springs.I was impressed by how much more valve spring pressure the P3690933 springs had over the stock used ones and that force ends up on the cam lobe.With a "resto" cam (P4452783) I'm far from some of the extreme ends others may have to deal with, but I needed durability over horse power/high RPM.I switched to Valvoline Racing as soon as I read this and am very lucky my car did not rack up many miles since a total rebuild of the 440!

[62 Max]

Here's a link to 20 samples of Mobile 1 test results, and they all show zinc and phosphorous.  Why do you say your Mobile 1 has never had zinc in it?

http://neptune.spacebears.com/cars/stories/mobil1.html

Yes those tests confirm that Zn/Phos is present in the "current" formulations but those levels are inadequate for flat tappet cams. The old formulations (before the EPA mandated BS reduction) had 1400 ppm zinc/phosphorus and therein lies the dilemma. That chart is definitive proof that anyone running a flat tappet cam needs an EP additive or they risk destroying their hard earned investment.



Ron

Ron,

If "you" ran this oil only,would "you" still use an additive?


The Penn-Grade 1® oils "typical" 1,500 ppm Zinc (Zn) and 1340-1400 ppm Phosphorus (P)

Max, if BP is indeed 1400-1500 ppm Zn/Phos then i would have no problem using it without an EP additive. 

I've seen conflicting VOA results regarding BP oil.....some show 800-900 while others show what you are reporting. 

Mobil 1 15/50 synthetic was at one point in the 1400-1500 ppm range but has since been reduced. The Mobil 1 "motorcycle" 15/50 is supposed to have lots of EP goodies at the present time....perhaps because motorcycle lube is not held to the same standards as regular passenger car oil. 

Overall, I find the situation frustrating... to say the least ! 



Ron

Ron,I can get an unbiased independent analysis of the BP oil.I have 6 cases and I send our oil samples for our fleet of 50 diesel trucks to http://www.staveleyna.com/public/FLhome.asp for analysis.I can have a sample in the mail on Monday.Usually have results in three days.No comparasion with any one else,just real time analysis.
This I will do and post the results.

Hey Max, did you ever get results on the oil?

Should have it this coming Monday,I didn't forget!

[idahogrumpy]

I thought that this needed to be here with the discussion.

I work for a New Holland agricultural dealership and I was curious with all of the over the counter oil going the way of the new epa regulations how our New Holland oil stacked up, here is what I found.
                  10W  10W30  30      15W40   20W50   .    .    .    .    .
Cst @ 40c    42    80    108     112        157
Cst @ 100c    7.0    11.6   12.1    14.8       18.0
Viscosity Index 105    133    105    136       135
Borderline pumping temperature, C (F)
         -33 (-27)  -33 (-27) -20 (-4) -29 (-20) -20 (-4)
Zinc, wt %
   0.17    0.17    0.17    0.17    0.17
Sulfated Ash, wt%
   1.5    1.5    1.5    1.5    1.5
TBN (ASTM D-2896)    12    12    12    12    12

NH-AmbrA MasterGold HSP Engine Oil

CJ-4 ENGINE OILS
The newest API Service Category for Diesel engine lubricants is CJ-4. This new category is designed for 2007 engines and on-highway diesel emission requirements in combination with Ultra Low Sulfur Fuel, ULSF. Equivalent emission requirements for off-highway engines will not phase in until 2011-2012.

At this time, CNH engine engineering has decided not to change Case No. 1 and New Holland Mastergold HSP Engine oils to meet CJ-4.  Taking into account off-highway higher sulfur fuels and higher load factors, CNH feels that the current formulations are the most appropriate at this time. Reformulating the engine oils to meet CJ-4 would mean a reduction of the zinc anti-wear additive and lower Total Base Number than current products, and result in higher cost.

Additionally, several trade publications and competitive OEMs have expressed concern over maintaining current drain intervals with CJ-4 oils in off-highway severe duty applications.

Now if I am reading this correctly New Holland tractor oil should keep our for Mopars going for years to come.
Just a thought,,,, Kyle
ps
I was told that the zinc content is at 1700 parts per million. That should be enough to protect our solid camshafts & lifters.

[ACUDANUT]

 Tractor Oil ??  Do they have 10-40 ??  I doubt it 

[firefighter3931]

Ok guys, here is some current data courtesy of Max 62  > thanks Bill for taking the time to have this VOA report commissioned and sharing the results. 

Below is a report on the Brad Penn 20/50 racing oil. Looks very good to me....lots of EP additives (Zn/Phos) for flat tappet cam protection. I would have no problem using this lube in any engine of mine. 


Ron

[ACUDANUT]

 USING 20-50 oil here in the midwest (especially in the winter) is a NO-NO. The oil is too thick and cannot circulate as well to keep an entire engine properly lubricated in the cold.  This is what my Mechanical Engineering folks tell me.

[62 Max]

Once the engine has reached operating temperature I would find that hard to believe.

[General_01]

Nice numbers on the oil. Thanks Max.

[ACUDANUT]

Once the engine has reached operating temperature I would find that hard to believe.

Good point, but it does take 10-15 minutes to reach normal operating temp.  20-50 is still a thick oil, and it does sound like a good point to argue/study on what it's best used for. 

[challenger70]

So can you mix the ZDDPlus with Mobil 1?  Does it even really matter if it blends with the oil as long as it gets pumpe dthrough the engine along with the oil?

[histoy]

Eastwood carries ZDDPlus.  I bought the 3 pack today for $26.99.   They also sell a 10 pack for $89.99.

[70sixpkrt]

I am using Delo 400 with a bottle of Comp Cam break in lube. Every time I change the oil, I add a bottle of it. I am also running the EDM lifters.

[challenger70]

Eastwood carries ZDDPlus.  I bought the 3 pack today for $26.99.   They also sell a 10 pack for $89.99.

Yeah I found it there and I got 2 3 packs, once you get the discount for the 3 pack over the single bottle it's the same $ per bottle as the 10 pack actually slightly cheaper.

[426HemiCharger]

Royal Purple has a Break-in oil with high zinc and Mopar has and oil filter that is specially designed to catch metal slivers. Try it!!!

[Ghoste]

Do you have a part number on that oil filter?

[426HemiCharger]

Not exactly an oil filter but a two-piece system, from The Paddock Parts   Oil Filter - PAD02801    Magnet - ACC365S.   Catalog Page 128.

[BLUE68RT4ME]

My friends are AMSOil distributors and they use it in everything, especially their race cars.  They do use the diesel blend as Firefighter mentioned earlier.  Synthetics maintain a balanced pressure so much better throughout the temp ranges, the conditioners keep everything so much cleaner, and they lube so much better in my experiences.  I use AMSOil in everything I run, not trying to be a salesman.    I know you pay more but, to me, it's worth it.  Besides, at least with AMSOil, it's guaranteed for 25K miles or 1 year.  So, it costs about 4x as much but lasts more than 8x as long.     In any case, protect yourself!!!   

[62 Max]

My friends are AMSOil distributors and they use it in everything, especially their race cars.  They do use the diesel blend as Firefighter mentioned earlier.  Synthetics maintain a balanced pressure so much better throughout the temp ranges, the conditioners keep everything so much cleaner, and they lube so much better in my experiences.  I use AMSOil in everything I run, not trying to be a salesman.    I know you pay more but, to me, it's worth it.  Besides, at least with AMSOil, it's guaranteed for 25K miles or 1 year.  So, it costs about 4x as much but lasts more than 8x as long.     In any case, protect yourself!!!   

Guaranteed to what extent.Too many variables to make a claim like that.

[BLUE68RT4ME]

Well, the warrantee is online:  http://www.amsoil.com/lit/g1363.pdf

It's not something without limitations, I don't think anyone would honestly think that.  If you have more questions here is the site:  http://www.amsoil.com/index.aspx  If you have questions, there is plenty of information there for you.

[brianz426]

Well, the warrantee is online:  http://www.amsoil.com/lit/g1363.pdf

It's not something without limitations, I don't think anyone would honestly think that.  If you have more questions here is the site:  http://www.amsoil.com/index.aspx  If you have questions, there is plenty of information there for you.

I noticed on the Amsoil web site that in their description of the 10w-40 oil they mention it is formulated for vehicles with flat tappet cams. It is supposed to have extra zinc in it. Anyone using this oil? Is there any benefits or problems with adding zinc to an oil that already contains it?
Thanks

[BLUE68RT4ME]

I can make a phone call to my friends to confirm, but I think they just simply do with the diesel formula instead of adding anything to the oil.  Let me get back to you...

[BLUE68RT4ME]

Good thing I called, they use the 10W-40 in all the hot rods.  No need for additive.  They use the 5W diesel in all their daily driver cars (i.e. Acura and Honda) just for added protection.  These guys are Chevy guys, don't hold it against them, but one's running a 615 HP stroked small block and the other about 425 HP small block.  They said they think other good choices are Royal Purple and Lucas, like I believe it was Firefighter said earlier.  Hope that helps!   

[ACUDANUT]

AMSOIL ? The parts stores around here do not carry it, and the price to have a case shipped would be even more costly. 

[BLUE68RT4ME]

There is a dealer finder on the site, in most areas of the country (but not all!) there is a dealer within a few miles.  You can call them and pick up as much as you need just as you would any parts store.  Some may need a couple days notice depending on their inventory.  I'm not saying anyone has to do it, I'm just offering it as ONE viable solution.   

[brianz426]

Good thing I called, they use the 10W-40 in all the hot rods.  No need for additive.  They use the 5W diesel in all their daily driver cars (i.e. Acura and Honda) just for added protection.  These guys are Chevy guys, don't hold it against them, but one's running a 615 HP stroked small block and the other about 425 HP small block.  They said they think other good choices are Royal Purple and Lucas, like I believe it was Firefighter said earlier.  Hope that helps!   

Yes that's good news for me. I've only recently heard of the problems that the lack of zinc causes. I've been using the Amsoil 10w-40 in my old cars. I bought a couple of cases early last year to beat a price increase. None of my labels say anything about added zinc like the new labels. I have'nt had any problems so far so I'll continue to use the Amsoil.
Thanks for the info.