~100% Ethanol Alcohol at 40 cents per gallon

[zerfetzen]

What do you think of this?

I've found a lot of information about converting your car to run on ~100% ethanol alcohol , and from what I've read, it sounds promising.

For example, this guy used a 1969 Dodge Dart with a 318: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_drane.html

Although he bought a drum of ethanol, it's possible to make it yourself, legally with a permit, for about 40 cents per gallon, when made from sugar, rather than corn.  Information on doing your own moonshine still is here, I like their .pdf download: http://www.moonshine-still.com/

So you go through about 1.5 times as much fuel, but at about 1/10th the cost...the trade-off works for me.  Your motor runs cooler, and the fuel handles higher compression, so therefore, more power.


Disadvantages:
1. As soon as ethanol is exposed to the air, water begins to form in it, which of course would ruin your motor.  But I think they have additives you can put in it to prevent this.
2. Fuel consumption increases by ~1.5 times (corrected, I wrote mileage initially by mistake)
3. Driving distance is limited to within a half-tank of home
4. The fuel should be heated when below 70 degrees before hitting the carburetor
5. Denatured ethanol alcohol is corrosive


Advantages:
1. Modern gas rots in 3-6 months, ethanol has a long, long shelf-life
2. Engine runs cooler
3. Higher octane allows higher compression, yielding more power
4. Cost of homemade ethanol alcohol is about 40 cents per gallon, less than 1/10th the current cost of gasohol
5. No environmental pollution


If it's reasonable, hey, there's something appropriate-sounding about my '69 Charger running on moonshine.

[dkn1997]

1st problem I see is that article is from 1980. I doubt it would cost 40 cents/gallon now, 28 years later.

[zerfetzen]

Definitely true, but then again, he's talking about corn-based ethanol, not sugar, and I don't know how much that currently costs to make a gallon, but I do remember reading somewhere in that neighborhood of dirt cheap.  And with the current trend toward E85 based on corn, corn prices will shoot up of course, but I doubt sugar becomes expensive.  If so, that'd stick it right in our American sweet-tooth and our population might actually get thinner 

[zerfetzen]

I was looking around for current prices of sugar to make 100% ethanol, and found this news article...

http://internationaltrade.suite101.com/article.cfm/moonshine_fuel_replaces_oil

Brazil's economy has switched over completely to 100% ethanol based on sugar, and India is in the process of converting as well.

They're citing $30/barrel to make it, but I'm sure a backyard still is cheaper.

[G-man]

On petrol if you got 400miles out of 18 galons for 100 Dollars

Now you would get like 2000miles for 100 dollars done that way?

if that be the case

540ci Hemi HERE I COME

[aussiemuscle]

Brazil's economy has switched over completely to 100% ethanol based on sugar, and India is in the process of converting as well.

...and saved their sugar industry to boot!

the point about water getting in the fuel could also be an issue while it's sitting in the tank. (rust, contamination, etc)

i'm sure they'll soon make distilling your own fuel illegal...

[bordin34]

Sounds good, I bet the gov't will make it illegal and say you can't make it because you could potentially drink it.

[zerfetzen]

I think I read somewhere that part of getting the permit is assuring the gov't that you'll put something in the ethanol that will make it undrinkable, but don't remember what that is.

[Hemidoug]

they have been running alcohol in internal combustion engines for a looooog time. Lots of issues with it as a day to day fuel. Engine life is shortened considerably because it lacks the lubricity of oil based fuels. moisture is a biggie...you would have to change your oil after driving in the rain...EVERY TIME! Not a good fuel for daily use. if it was, a lot more people would have started using it a long time ago. Ever see the oil from an alky motor? looks like a chocolate milkshake after only a few runs.....Nope, not going to work.

[zerfetzen]

I don't know much and am just poking into the idea, but...

If national economies like Brazil can make it work, I'm guessing we could.  I've definitely heard that alcohol motors have shorter lifespans, but am curious how the lubricity of the fuel would shorten the life of the engine, assuming that there is a work-around for moisture already...I thought I heard they have an additive for that.  Once the fuel is mixed with the air in the carburetor, I'm just trying to understand how it could shorten engine life.

While I'm at it, why would rain affect it badly, unless you're driving with your hood off?  Mixing water down through the carb venturi's can't be good whether you're on gas or ethanol.

I think most of the alcohol motors in racing have been methanol-based, which is poisonous, though ethanol is not.  Like I said, just poking into this one, sounds like it has potential.

[Hemidoug]

Because of the moisture in the air...when it rains the humidity is 100 percent. With alcohol being what it is (a big sponge) where do you think most of that moisture will end up? Yup...in the crankcase being mixed at 3000 RPMs......

[zerfetzen]

But isn't that true to a lesser extent with gasoline as well?  The gasoline might not soak up water like alcohol does, but nonetheless, the humidity in the air doesn't escape the carburetor, and still goes into the mist, and into the motor, right?

PS
This is kind of interesting too: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_fuel

[Hemidoug]

I don't know...I'm not a chemist...but I can tell you what the oil looks like on alky cars with just a few runs on them on humid summer days........I've never seen oil like that come out of gas engines.

[zerfetzen]

Do you know any online sources for info on alcohol motors?  There seems to be plenty of info on the fuel and how to make it, but not much on the alcohol motors, specifically.  I could definitely learn more about this.  Cheers.

[oldcarnut]

Convert Your Car/Truck to BURN WATER as well as Gasoline--Double Your Mileage!
http://water4gas.com/2books.htm?hop=webdirect2#upgrade

Anyone heard of somebody doing this? 

[twenty mike mike]

Mileage won't improve with ethanol, it will decrease, since ethanol/alcohol has less energy than gasoline. In addition to attracting water and the attendant corrosion issues in the fuel tank and the hard lines, ethanol will attack anything make from rubber or plastic, so the soft fuel lines will deteriorate, along with seals in the carb/injectors.

As far as water and gasoline, the water separates and will go to the bottom of the tank. What happens next will depend on where the outlet is or where the pickup is, depending if it's a gravity or pressure system.

[G-man]

Hmmm

There goes that 540 HEMI 

[zerfetzen]

Here's something I found on that here (http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_motherearth/me1.html):


*****
In addition to the fact that alcohol is a cleaning agent, it is also a solvent ... and this means that certain types of plastics used in the fuel system of your vehicle may be attacked by it. Actually, most of the plastics deterioration problems associated with ethanol fuel are caused by the substances used to denature it - such as acetone or methyl ethyl ketone - rather than the alcohol itself. If you manufacture your own alcohol and denature it with gasoline, as federal regulations now permit, deterioration problems will be reduced to a minimum.

Most vehicles manufactured prior to 1970 used stainless steel or brass components in their fuel systems ... hence there is little chance of parts failure...Of course, not all plastics are subject to corrosion, and neither are all types of rubber.
*****


And I also found this about the lubricity of the fuel


*****
One final thing to be aware of when burning alcohol in your vehicle is that the new fuel does not contain the additives which the engine has become used to over the years ... specifically the leads which help to lubricate the valve seats. Of course, any car built in 1975 or later is already equipped with hardened valves and seats, so there should be no problem with them ... but even vehicles of other years (with the possible exception of large-block 1972-1974 Ford products) can tolerate alcohol fuel safely.

One reason for this is that water in the alcohol acts as a "cushion" and lubricant for the valves ... but if you are still wary of using alcohol fuel in its pure form, you can add up to 1% kerosene or diesel fuel to your alcohol supply. This will provide the lubrication of petroleum fuels with a minimum of pollution.
*****


I forgot to put the corrosiveness in the disadvantages above, so I'll do that now.

[G-man]

Heres something on the law of Logic.

If it sounds too good to be true, it is.

You know all the emails about "make 2000 a week online, simple to start" hell yeah, that sounds awesome, why doesnt the whole world do it? Cause it doesnt work.

Why doesnt the whole world spend 40 cents a gallon instead of 5 dollars? Cause it wont work.

If it did, everyone would be on it, and if everyone was on it, fact is the government would charge for it this and that and the price again will be up over 4 dollars, this time, its gonna cost u twice cause 1 to fill the car up and 2 to buy sugar from the store. The government will not allow u to get away with cheap. Simple fact.

Personally... Save yourself the time researching something that will turn around and slap you. Its a waste of time.

[zerfetzen]

There's nothing I appreciate more than shooting it straight.  But then again, that's not a simple law of logic of course, or related to logic at all.  I don't think an alternative fuel is akin to a get-rich-quick scheme, well, unless it's how to run your car on water Why doesn't everyone do it?  Well:


1. Gasoline use is going badly, and actually, ethanol is already in all of our tanks, just in smaller percentages.  If you fill up a classic charger now at the pump, you're putting 10% ethanol in it anyway.
2. If you don't have land to have your own still, you can't make it yourself, and you'd have to buy a drum, and for the cost difference at the moment, I don't think it'd be worth it.
3. If you did make your own fuel, you couldn't drive any substantial distance, because you couldn't fill up anywhere but home.
4. A majority of people behave like sheep and follow the herd for most things.  Sometimes that's the best thing to do, and well, sometimes it's best to question the herd.

As I question the herd, I've read that in the beginning of the mass-produced engine, there were good debates on both sides as to whether to use alcohol or gas, and gas was chosen.  I'd like to read those debates on both sides.

But asking "Why doesn't everyone do it" is kind of a loaded question, in the sense that it depends on where you are.  For an example with logic, it wouldn't make any sense at all to ask the question in Brazil, right?  The implied premise that everyone doesn't do it there would be erroneous.  Why don't Americans do it?  Well, each fill up is doing it at a 10% rate, and increasing.

I think that reasoning assumes that what "everyone" does, is always the best rational choice.  If that were true, everyone would eat smart, exercise a lot, and study quite a bit.  We'd be a nation of trim, healthy, attractive, and technical people.  That's not what I see anyway.

Maybe after looking into it more, it'll be a winner.  Then again, maybe not.  We'll see.  Of course there's no harm looking into something, and we're all smarter for researching things.

[G-man]

I think that reasoning assumes that what "everyone" does, is always the best rational choice.  If that were true, everyone would eat smart, exercise a lot, and study quite a bit.  We'd be a nation of trim, healthy, attractive, and technical people.  That's not what I see anyway.

Amen brother! 

Well let us know what gets found out if anything. Im all up for driving a big  motor every day, if you can get the price down without sacrificing the reliability of the vehicle or increasing maintenence cost... Im ready!

[zerfetzen]

Thanks G-man,
At the moment, I don't think I'm worried about the corrosion issues.  Off-hand, that means getting a stainless steel gas tank and fuel lines, and probably at worst, rebuilding the carburetor periodically.  It ought to be fun to look into.

But thanks to Hemidoug for mentioning that the oil in alcohol motors looks so bad, I want to know a lot more about that.  I wonder if that's true with synthetic as well, because I'd definitely go synthetic, but on the other hand, I'd never do any of this if I have to change the oil constantly.  I'd rather buy a lot of gas than oil 

If anyone knows any good sources on alcohol motors, please let me know.  Cheers.

[suntech]

I have raced methanol in boatracing, and we had to preserve it every time we left it overnight! If not both sylinders and bearings (two stroke) would rust!!!!
What they mean with "absorbing" moisture is that it alcohol absorbes water/moisture like when you mix yourself a drink, and petrol based fuel will separate from the water again.

[zerfetzen]

That bad, eh?  If there are no additives or ways to deal with that, then that's definitely a dead duck in the water (no pun intended on the water).  I'll start looking now for additives or how they deal with moisture.

[Hemidoug]

here ya go...read away from those that have...

http://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=4408150&an=0&page=0

Do you really want to go through this for use on the street?

(Quote from above post)...............


I hav'nt posted in a while & I'll probably get "barbqued" for this one as well but here are my thoughts:

Carbureted Meth VS Carb Gas all else being equal, you should pick up right aorund 20 HP/20 Ft lbs across the board on a SB like yours.

Now My guess as to why you want to do it is to help make your car a more consistent 10.0/9.90 car instead of 10.10-10.15 car. If this is the case, it will certainly get the job done....

Pros of meth:

Runs cold
can run any compression under ~15:1 with no detonation issues
Makes "artifical" HP/TQ

Cons:
Extra work.... I don't care what some of these guys are claiming, there is extra work involved. It may not be ALOT but there is some, I think after your run Meth for a while it des'nt seem like extra work, it jsut becomes old habit.... Mostly the fact you should be adding top end lube to your fuel... (don't have to do that with gas), You probably will be changing oil more often (I see some thinking changing oil every 20-30 passes is "normal???" Uh not on gas it is'nt...
The fact that you really should not run a meth motor for short periods of time without getting it fully up to temp... ie. If you want to just fire the car for a few seconds to move it onto your trailer or off trailer at end of day etc before parking it for the week.... You do that enough, & you will be changing oil more often.

Some see having to screw around with a lean out valve to get your motor up to temp is not "extra work"... I guess I'd disagree there too. Again it's something a gas motor does'nt have to do...

& wait till you go to fire that baby up on a nice cold morning or whatnot.... Bring along a can of brake kleen to spray down carb whenever you want to fire it up when it's cold... I guess that is normal with a gas motor as well....

If you don't use Top end lube or spray cyl walls down, I GUARANTEE the cyl walls WILL rust in a colder air climate like up here on East coast. Some of our circle tracks guys do NO lube maintenence & their cyl walls looks HORRID after a season. Bad bad rust pitting... I been trying to convince them they need to do something but.... for some people it's too much effort.

Meth carbs are generally more $ than comparable gas carb... Will require new jet kit to be purchased as well.

Fuel system needs to be up to task to deliver the extra volume... & yes it does require extra volume unlike some in here have suggested. I dunno how you can think otherwise, the jets/metering circuits/needle & seats are huge in a meth carb for a reason... to think a meth system uses neaarly the same volume of fuel as a gas system is mind blowing to me but.. whatever...

& then don't plan on reading plugs on meth... you really need to get an EGT setup to tune off of.....

As for it's corrosiveness.... after I saw a Sprint Car hilborn aluminum manifold that was completely eaten in HALF by meth laying on it for a few months in some guys garage I never questioned it's corrosiveness again.

So now that I've pissed off everyone who has ever run methanol... I'll state...... it has it's advantages.... & it has it's disadvantages, Just be aware of both before using.... I actually don't mind the stuff, other than the fumes. I detest dynoing a motor on methanol.... Other than that, I'd sell my soul for 20 HP in some cases so a little extra $ here, & work there is'nt that big of a deal to me.

If you're looking for that extra .1 I'd say go for it.

One last thought, I would also say yes it does matter where you get your meth as well. I saw some recycled Hospital stuff at the shop we dyno at that they were having issues with little tiny silk strands clogging injectors.... aparantly the recylcled medical waste methanol gets screened through silk filters? & the strands were getting in the meth.. So just something to watch out for.

(un-quote)


Way too much work for me.....I'd stick to gas. 

[zerfetzen]

Good info and good call.  Thanks Hemidoug.