Paint help

[Carrots]

So I have my car in the shop for some work (which has turned into a nightmare, but that's another story!) and included in the work is some paint. I gave them the paint code I was given when I bought the car but have just had a call to say that the colour doesn't match. Now whilst I can't be sure the fact that the code that I have given them has turned into a pot of paint at all and that the paint is a dark red (the right colour) I doubt that that there is a problem with the actual code. The car was painted in '97 and so I guess that it's an issue of fading. Its been left with the shop that they will try to match the current colour on the car but I'm a bit confused. The paint on the car is not great but its certainly good...Is 10yr old paint on a car that was mostly garaged really going to fade enough for the new paint pot supply to totally mismatch? It's possible I think, but then how do folks who can't/won't get the whole car painted get on with touching up bits and pieces? Without being on site I can't gauge the mismatch but I guess unless it was anything but major they would have just painted the panels.
I guess I'm only suspicious because of the BS I've been fed by these guys already, but shouldn't the age of the paint have been flagged as a potential issue before Ok'ing the touch-ups? If touching up 10yr old paint is dicey shouldn't a professional shop know that and advise accordingly before priming the panels and opening the pot? Is it just a case of hope for best, expect the worse (ie maybe it will match, maybe not)  or just a case of sloppy prep in not advising of the need to colour match and not get new paint to start with? Perhaps Im being unreasonable, just not the call I needed having waited 5 weeks for a job that should have taken 2.
 
Advice appreciated.
Thank you!

[BRS]

It's very difficult to match the paint on a car, even if it's only a few years old. Some colors are easier that others. Red is difficult. I had a truck where the door was damaged. The dealer used the "exact" paint code as the factory color and it never looked right. Also, even though it's the same paint code different manufacturers (Dupont, PPG, etc.) have a little different shade. Your primer color also makes a difference on some colors. Best of luck to you.

[hemi-hampton]

It's not easy to match any color on any car under any circumstances. Way to many variables. My Advise is BLEND, Sounds like they PANEL PAINTED.  Problem solved. LEON.

[Charger-Bodie]

I agree with both guys above.

And for red , red is one of the worst for color change over time, inside or outside.

[Carrots]

Thanks, I'll mention that to the shop tomorrow......(odd that they didnt suggest it though isn't it?)

[Carrots]

I agree with both guys above.

And for red , red is one of the worst for color change over time, inside or outside.

Just as well we're only touching up then! That said I do hope that they will be able to get close, I am a rather particular gentleman and I can't spring for a respray at the moment.
She still looks good for 10yr old paint though no? (be nice  )

[Charger-Bodie]

I agree with both guys above.

And for red , red is one of the worst for color change over time, inside or outside.

Just as well we're only touching up then! That said I do hope that they will be able to get close, I am a rather particular gentleman and I can't spring for a respray at the moment.
She still looks good for 10yr old paint though no? (be nice )

It does take A great picture! 

[Charger74SE]

I agree with both guys above.

And for red , red is one of the worst for color change over time, inside or outside.

I agree with you about red fading out over time. Mine started to look like it had a slight tint of pink in it. I decided to go with a much brighter shade of red.

[mikepmcs]

I agree with above, Blend Blend Blend.

v/r
Mike

[hemi-hampton]

Carrots, I think I can answer some of those Questions. This is my experiance & opinion. 9 out of 10 the painter in back painting knows what he is doing, BUT, 9 out of 10 the shop owner & /or Manager have no clue what they are doing & never painted a car or spread bondo in there life & only in the business to make money, they dont care if they are in the Bakery business, Shoe store business or Landscape business, as long as they can make money. I run into these same problems your having on a Daily basis. Sometimes a faded red car will have to be rubbed to get rid of the oxidation & bring the shine back to accurately try to match. I've had cars so faded that they did not match, But then rubbed the oxidized paint & then match & others I had to add flattening agent to to dull to match the faded paint. I dont recommend these last 2 options but thats what you get working at a Maaco. I've worked at shops where the Shop Owner dont want the painter or bodyman to talk to the customer, Mainly because the painter body man will tell the customer the truth & then the owner is caught in obvious lies & B.S. Stories. Hope this helps LEON.

[tan top]

Carrots, I think I can answer some of those Questions. This is my experiance & opinion. 9 out of 10 the painter in back painting knows what he is doing, BUT, 9 out of 10 the shop owner & /or Manager have no clue what they are doing & never painted a car or spread bondo in there life & only in the business to make money, they dont care if they are in the Bakery business, Shoe store business or Landscape business, as long as they can make money. I run into these same problems your having on a Daily basis. Sometimes a faded red car will have to be rubbed to get rid of the oxidation & bring the shine back to accurately try to match. I've had cars so faded that they did not match, But then rubbed the oxidized paint & then match & others I had to add flattening agent to to dull to match the faded paint. I dont recommend these last 2 options but thats what you get working at a Maaco. I've worked at shops where the Shop Owner dont want the painter or bodyman to talk to the customer, Mainly because the painter body man will tell the customer the truth & then the owner is caught in obvious lies & B.S. Stories. Hope this helps LEON.

 

[Carrots]

Thanks Chaps. The paint issue is resolved (having checked the colour the code produced it is far too dark and more of a purple than a red so it looks like my bad or at least the bad of the original owner who swore blind that the code was correct)

However I have big problems with the shop in general and really don't know what to do. I'm new to the area and it seems I put my trust in the wrong place.

After I'd bought the car I put together a list of things that needed doing ranging from the easy (repair the indicator stalk so that it would 'click' and hold for a right hand turn) to the hard (having new aftermarket A/C installed). I took the view that as I couldn't do the A/C or paint myself I may as well as just have everything done at a shop. So I phoned some places,emailed some places and got some quotes trying to be as careful as possible in terms of costs, the shops attentiveness and whatnot. Usually I'm a good judge of people but not in this case. So I pick one of the shops and drop the car off. We agree two weeks and I make it clear that I have a $5000 budget. They confirm that both of these things are OK. They have quoted per item and I've left myself a reasonable buffer against the expected total and my budget making room for the ever present unexpected problems. Some things will just have to wait I think, but hey thats OK. So I leave for a two week vacation expecting to collect near enough when I get back. I should also mention that when I dropped the car off I was well looked after, we went round the whole car, talked about everything on the list &c and they seemed to know what they were talking about. It looks like a proper shop (plenty of cars, equipment and staff &c) and I was there for about 90 minutes. I met one of the mechanics, plenty of hand shakes and I left feeling relaxed. I left them with a $2900 deposit for parts. A week and a half in I send an email along the lines of assume no news is good news?'. I get no reply which I take to mean that there is nothing I need to know about. Four days after I get back from holiday (so 18 days) I call the shop. The owner isn't around and one of the staff answers. I ask how there doing and I'm told that the car hasn't even been started. Less than pleased I send the boss an email to ask him whats up and to give me a call. He comes back to say that the supplier sent them the wrong parts which has delayed the start. Now I should point out that I am a reasonable guy and as a new immigrant I am not allowed to work for several months and so whilst inconvenient being without a car was not the end of the world. I was displeased that it had been left to me to find out as opposed to being told but put this down to one of those things and bit my tongue.   We agreed that they needed to keep me informed of what was happening (had I known there were problems I wouldn't have spent the last week of my holiday like an excited schoolboy). I'd only had the car 10 days before dropping it off so had had very little fun and was eager to start enjoying my new purchase. Over the next two weeks I am totally housebound and not having a car starts to grate. I am given several collection dates all of which do not materialise. I am told that the A/C install has gone up and that I need a new fan. OK I think, I need the car cool and these things happen. I remain relaxed and OK the additional cost. I'm then told that the A/C has been done and that they have billed me $1205. The same day they bill me for a further $500 with no explanation. Again I remain relaxed as we are still under the amount that I was expecting to pay and despite the constantly moving schedule we are speaking and they are replying to my mails. So the date for collection was set for this Monday. On Monday I'm told that I can't collect the car because they are having problems with the paint drying. I am assured that everything else is done. I make it clear that I need the car for the weekend and will be collecting Thursday regardless. Then Wednesday rolls around and I get a call to say that they have opened the paint and it is the wrong colour (see above). So the paint is too wet to collect Monday and then the wrong colour Wednesday. Obviously by this time I am very concerned. I had the feeling that I was being misled before but as is the case with these things we all expect a level of BS dealing with a shop. Now it was obvious I had problems, BS is BS but a blatant lie is quite another kettle of fish. I'm $4600 down and have been without my car for over a month. We agree that they will start working on a colour match and that I will collect the car Thursday and then return the following week for the paint to be sprayed (its only a door so not a huge job). Seeing no point in rocking the boat before arriving I didn't pull them up on the obvious BS about wet paint on the Monday. I went in yesterday to collect the car. I was told that two of the things on the list had not been done. A third thing could be done but the part was on back order. So everything turns into everything but three. No decent explanation but I'm assured everything else is A OK. We look round the car and I am cautious to check most of it out. At this stage of the adventure I'm pretty pissed off with the whole situation but again in the interests of keeping things on a happy Kiel I'm polite and the collection goes well. I'm given an invoice and told the final balance is $5400. Whilst more than we agreed I took the view that it was OK and paid the balance of $809. I was rather uneasy about paying for the paint (which this bill included) prior to having it finished but the guy insisted. After all I knew where he was didn't I? It is now 4pm on the 3rd July so everyone is keen to get gone for the weekend. i cast my eye over the obvious and knowing that I'm coming back the following week do not check everything on the list and head home.

The traffic is terrible and the 35 mile trip takes two and a half hours. Trying to commute in the afternoon of the 3rd was not a good choice. On route I see faint steam coming from under the hood. This happens three or four times and I start to get worried. Now I'm in traffic, potentially overheating with no one to call in a city that I don't know. Nice. Fortunately I make it home. The car is hot but in nose to tail traffic in a hot Houston for 2.5 hours it was hard to tell how much of this, if anything, was due to my new A/C install. All I do know is in the 500 or so miles I'd driven the car I had not seen any steam before.  I then go down the list one by one.

3 further things have not been done. 1 thing has been done, but badly. So now I have three things that weren't done at the shop that I knew about before collection and three things that I was told were done that haven't been. Plus the one that has been done badly. 7. Of course we need to add in the paint that is due to be finished next week. 8. I then discover that I now  have no brake lights and no indicators (both working when I dropped the car off). 10. Clearly getting home safely was more than miracle than I had first thought. I then notice liquid under the hood. Clear and tasteless so probably either water or coolant. 11. I then notice that my speakers have been left dangling from their wires and are loose in the rear foot well. 12. So 12 probems remain out of an original list of 17. For $5400 and 5 weeks down.

So what can I do? They clearly cannot be trusted and I don't really want them to work on the car again but as I've paid for all this work I can't afford to just cut my losses and walk away. I don'tknow anyone in the city who can help in either fixing the car up or going with me to the shop. As this only came to a head yesterday and we're now in holiday mode I haven't done anything yet. I have tried not be Mr Angry throughout working on the basis that it doesn't usually help but obviously being Mr Placid hasn't helped either. I now have one door covered in primer , some sort of A/C related leak and a whole host of other either not done or shoddy work. Sending me home with no indicators or brakelights is pretty irresponsible especially considering I hadn't been told and so could at least be aware that I was going to be a nuisance at the very least to my fellow drivers. My repair budget is now spent and I have a car is worse shape than when I took it in both mechanically and cosmetically. Clearly I've been screwed but aside from learning a lesson what can I do here? I'm nervous about driving it anywhere other than a shop now in case this leak catches me out. I'm not mechanically minded and so I have no chance of DIY. Is getting angry going to help? I'd demand a refund if I thought I'd get it, but to my mind they seem to be holding all of the cards. Needless to say I'm in a foul mood and hardly slept last night. This is not how I intended to spend my first 4th July in th US.

[Carrots]

It has been left that they will call me next week when they have paint in hand, however I don't expect that call. They must know that by the time next week comes around I'd know about all of the problems and be less than pleased. They clearly do not deserve it but should i give them the benefit of the doubt? Is it possible that the staff have been incompetent and not told the boss? Unlikely I know but I'm just trying to cling on to something. I know that by taking the car back the world of pain is only going to increase but what choice do I have? I can't be without my car for another 5 weeks, especially spending every day of that period worried about what I will eventually be collecting and how much extra they are going to want to charge for the privilege. I also can't walk away from $5000.

[hemi-hampton]

WOW, Terrible story, but I've heard similar ones many times. I feel sorry for most people that bring there car to a body shop or mechanical shop because these things happen to often. I work at a body shop/mechanical shop so I get to see behind the scenes & not pretty. But I do know my shop would not do whats been done to you. 1st, I would have never paid them anything until all the work was done. Paying for the paint before it was done properly is not right. What to do, no car, I would have took & cab home & rented a rental car. I know hindsight 20/20. Now that they have your money they will have no incentive to finish work & most likely just try to blow you off & give you the run around with lame excuses & BS Stories. Typical of most shops. Paint not dry my ass. I can paint the front clip on a new car in 1 hour. Bake it at 160 degrees for 30 minutes, untape it & off you go less then 2 hours after I painted it. From what I hear it's obviious that shop is incompetant idiots & stalling with BS Stories. $5400 sounds like way to much for A/C Fix & a door painted. You say $1,200 for A/C & then what , $4,200 to paint a door? Someting not right there? & I'd insist on knowing what that extra $500 was for. Get a break down of evertything done & what you paid for each item on a receipt or invoice. If not sounds like maybe you'll have to take them to Court, I have not heard there side of the story so maybe everything they did is Legite but from what you say it does not sound good or right at all. Sounds like you got scammed, I'd be very pissed off myself. I'm pissed off just thinking about it. Wish I was there to paint it or see what they did, I'd paint it right for alot cheaper then them but I'm way far away in Detroit Michigan. Good luck, let me know what happens. LEON.

[hemi-hampton]

Forgot, If repainted that color could be anything. If not sure of actual color then I would have the paint scanned/ analyzed with the Camera/ Picture they call it. Some call it Spectramaster. Just a device that you put on the paint & it reads it color contents/tints. Kinda looks like a Radar gun but different companies have different devices. What this thing does is reads the paint & then searches it's vast mememory of paint formula's and comes up with a closet match of what is on your car. Most people love this thing but sometimes it's accurate & sometimes it's not. Some say accurate to panel paint & I've seen it done with good results but for me & my luck I always blend anyways. What this means is your whole side of car will have to be painted. You paint the door but then only paint back half of fender & front half of 1/4 but you clear the entire side. Then rub blend on roof/sail panel. Problem solved, Why your body shop did not do this I dont know but If not I'd call them Incompetant & clueless. Hope this helps, LEON.

[Carrots]

Thanks Leon. The $5400 was for 17 things, not just the paint & A/C. I do have a brakedown and the costs against the items are pretty much as we discussed. The issue is that the work has either not been done, or been done badly or as in the case with the lights things have been buggered up that were originally working. The invoice is clear, its just the car that doesn't correspond. I'd be happy with the total if I had got what I paid for. Probably early days for court but jeez I am at a loss as to other options. 

[hemi-hampton]

I guess after the holidays, Take it back & tell them everything you want done correctly or redone right. Hard to say what to do with paint not seeing it in person or being there to see whats going on, but if done the way I said from the start there would not be a problem. Problem is & I see it all the time is people like to cut corners, take short cuts & crank out a Peice of crap & cross there fingers & hope it turns out ok & if so & they are paid commision they can make good money. If you pay hourly most these paint problems are gone. LEON.

[472 R/T SE]

The name of the shop owner wouldn't happen to be Smitty, would it? 

As far as your brake lights and turn signals, it sounds like they some how messed up you turn signal switch when trying to fix your lever not catching.  Or did they not even fix the lever catching?

Beings you're new to the area, the country for that matter, it would help you to get to know folks like Troy "hemi68charger" to guide you towards the areas reputable shops.  I'm sure there's bound to be several area Mopar buddies who could have done your work for a fraction of what you've spent.  I know at least up here we all scratch each other's back.

[Carrots]

No its not Smitty's.

You could be right regarding the lights although the stalk catching is one of the things that isn't fixed. They said they had so maybe they 'tried' failed and then the lights went down from there.

In the long run I do hope to meet and hook up with some local folks who can help, but at the time I couldn't see a man in the street volunteering their time and expertise to help out a total stranger who is new in town who they encounter posting pleas for help online. Especially given that a complete A/C install and some paint was needed. I probably would have felt a bit odd just asking TBH although maybe that wouldn't have been such a crazy idea in hindsight. Is there anything practical that you can suggest given where I am now? I am wearing the face of a fraggle

[mikepmcs]

From Carrots
I left them with a $2900 deposit for parts.

I believe that is illegal to take the money before hand(to purchase materials to do the job, in my common sense mind, this is what they are doing.)  I know you can leave deposits when you get parts and such but they are nowhere near the halfway mark.  Sounds like that shop is running on empty and uses customer money to get by.  Not Good! I will be corrected if I am wrong on this.


From Hemi-H
I see it all the time is people like to cut corners, take short cuts & crank out a Piece of crap & cross thier fingers & hope it turns out ok

There are no shortcuts in bodywork, and I learned a lesson myself not 1 day ago on a spot in that i did as a favor for my buddy Gene(it's fixed right now.)(yes, i took a few different routes with my charger but knew what I was doing and know it will always be a driver)  Any shortcut will be a comeback eventually.

Go in there and tell them you are getting a lawyer if they don't agree to make it right....FOR FREE!!!.   
I'm guessing some of the issue is that you are new to this country and if you have an accent and they are in the good ole' boy crowd, they are taking advantage of you.

This story made me sick and floored me thinking this stuff even happens.  How can anyone with a conscience even consider treating another human being like this.

My buddy Danny runs a small in town collision center and although we do things off the cuff(cash deals, etc...) every now and again, he would never not make it right if a customer was not happy.
I'm pissed off just reading this.

Make sure your lights just aren't unplugged or something although I don't know if they had a reason to go back there, also they could have crimped/clipped/broken/burst/ruptured/torn/cut/a wire in there causing this as well.  I seem to remember a similar thread a billion years ago about getting a car back from the body shop, and the rear lights not working.

Keep us abreast of the situation, ain't nobody here out to screw you or take your money.

Where is 1hot68(Brian) on this one, he owns a body shop and I bet he'll have some sound advice as well as Hemi and others.
v/r
Mike

[Charger-Bodie]

From Carrots
I left them with a $2900 deposit for parts.

I believe that is illegal to take the money before hand(to purchase materials to do the job, in my common sense mind, this is what they are doing.)  I know you can leave deposits when you get parts and such but they are nowhere near the halfway mark.  Sounds like that shop is running on empty and uses customer money to get by.  Not Good! I will be corrected if I am wrong on this.


From Hemi-H
I see it all the time is people like to cut corners, take short cuts & crank out a Piece of crap & cross thier fingers & hope it turns out ok

There are no shortcuts in bodywork, and I learned a lesson myself not 1 day ago on a spot in that i did as a favor for my buddy Gene(it's fixed right now.)(yes, i took a few different routes with my charger but knew what I was doing and know it will always be a driver)  Any shortcut will be a comeback eventually.

Go in there and tell them you are getting a lawyer if they don't agree to make it right....FOR FREE!!!.   
I'm guessing some of the issue is that you are new to this country and if you have an accent and they are in the good ole' boy crowd, they are taking advantage of you.

This story made me sick and floored me thinking this stuff even happens.  How can anyone with a conscience even consider treating another human being like this.

My buddy Danny runs a small in town collision center and although we do things off the cuff(cash deals, etc...) every now and again, he would never not make it right if a customer was not happy.
I'm pissed off just reading this.

Make sure your lights just aren't unplugged or something although I don't know if they had a reason to go back there, also they could have crimped/clipped/broken/burst/ruptured/torn/cut/a wire in there causing this as well.  I seem to remember a similar thread a billion years ago about getting a car back from the body shop, and the rear lights not working.

Keep us abreast of the situation, ain't nobody here out to screw you or take your money.

Where is 1hot68(Brian) on this one, he owns a body shop and I bet he'll have some sound advice as well as Hemi and others.
v/r
Mike

Thats , for the most part pretty dang well said Mike!


Although , at least in Iowa you can accept a deposit on the parts and labor if both parties agree to such.

I also see this all the time with body shops in my area , WAY too many people doing what the think they can get away with instead of simply doing the job right the first time!! This also goes for many other fields of service these days!! " do the least for the most amount you can get away with" seems to be the trend! 

I personally would give them 1 final chance to get it right (which is highly unlikely to happen since they obviously aren't capable) PERIOD and let them know that its their only chance and that the next step is the lawyer (you should consult one ahead of time on the details of the deal in you're local)

Also , dont be afraid to mention the Better Bussines Bureau.

Go get 'em Tiger ....Don't let them get away with it!

[mikepmcs]

Oh, by the way, what part of Texas you in?  I got some cousins down there that would be happy to do some damage for a quick buck.  Not the proudest part of my family.

v/r
M

[Carrots]

Thank you all for your kind words of support. This is such a downer. I'm kinda resolved to having to give these guys a final chance but as we know its highly unlikely to get things sorted. The thing that boggles my mind is the fact that if they were out to completely rip me off then why even do some of the work? Some things have indeed been done, although at what quality only time will tell. Why include items on an invoice that patently haven't been touched? Just to get me out the door maybe. Why not just throw me the keys yesterday instead of spending time talking about 4th July plans and other unnecessary small talk . Why even answer my calls at all? With a shop full of mechanics I don't really want to try and become Mr Nasty on site with them, especially as I will in effect need to trust them with my car for a period of time once again. I have thought about hanging round whilst they do the work but I doubt thats got legs given the circumstances. Its also very impractical given that the shop is a 70 mile round trip, I have no other car and a cab there yesterday was $80. I have composed a very calm email (below) which I may send. Or I may call. Or I may wait and see if they call me as we have agreed. Right now I'm not sure. As I've said I am very aware that rocking the boat and being all confrontational may just make things worse but having been Mr Nice perhaps I have no other option. I've had to rewrite this more than four times to try and keep it objective, I really am very pissed off.  I'm in Houston BTW, and I may need to borrow those heavies before this is all worked out so I appreciate the offer Mike (if I were back home in London this would already be on the table as an option). I'm no thug (quite the gentleman actually) and I'd rather just have these guys step up amicably but given the above my goodwill is rather thin to say the least. I also wondered if I have any chance in having the payment transactions reversed by the bank. Have them disputed perhaps? Probably doubtful given that I did Ok them and signed both the invoice and CC slips yesterday. I really am not happy or hopeful about continuing to deal with these clowns though and if I could just get some money back I'd probably just walk away. I think I have more chance of having the car fixed (yeah right!) than that though. I'm a journalist by trade and so once this is done with boy will these folks be getting some coverage. Sadly that won't get my car fixed or my money returned though and so for the time being revenge is on the back burner. My wife's father is a lawyer and I'll be speaking to him next week. The thing that makes all this the worse is that I'm not allowed to work for what is in effect the rest of 08 and so I have no money coming in to replace what's already nearly lost. Welcome to America eh!    (sorry just sounding off)

------
xxx,

Numerous problems I'm afraid:

LIST

Given where we are I'd like you to revisit all of the above next week as well as finish off the paint. As a gesture of goodwill I'd like you to remount the speaker and replace the motor mount (as we discussed) but at the least I'd like what I have already paid for to be done done and done properly please.

Please give me a call when you get this Monday as I guess we're now talking more than an additional couple of days. I can't drive without lights so it may as well head back to you sooner rather than later and with the leaky fluid issue it's just as well you have a transporter to pick it up.

Hopefully these oversights are the result of a single sloppy mechanic, but this is not what I expected after being car less for five weeks and being 5.5k down. I'm a good guy and have been patient and understanding throughout and I really would like to think that I deserve better here. Please make good on all this, my 4th July has now been ruined.

xxxx

[mikepmcs]

That is an amicable email.  You can't be a gentleman at this point though. 
As a side note...I knew you were from England.   Not a bad thing, just the dialect.  Hope you get what you deserve and you definitely don't deserve this.  Please don't base your opinion on the USA on what you have experienced thus far.
I wish you the best!!
v/r
Mike

[Charger-Bodie]

.......what form of payment did you use?