Well I might just join in the "Engine trouble group".. Update 2/11

[Mefirst]

I have been battling it out with my 440 engine now for some time.. The 440 has had me beat several times..

Heres what has happend so far..

(Disclaimer: -This story is as accurate as my damaged brain remembers the events that occurred, some details can be a little fuzzy, but my brain has had to deal with allot of stress.. Also I chose to post this thread in G.T cause of the, hopefully informative reasons what issues might surface during modification work on a car. In other words check and double check every part you mount on your ride so it really does work before moving on to the next issue.. This will save you from allot of grief and headache later on..)

First start up:

* Fuel leaks (well nothing major, but still a headache. I also noticed the Dom. carb was missing one 1" nut for inner fuel bowl, dont ask me how I didint notice that before, well it made quite the mess when fuel squirted al over the engine compartment..)

Second try:

* Fixed the leaking fuel lines and bought a new nut to the fuel bowl.. OK, so far so good.. Got the damn engine running for about 30 seconds, noticed that the generator belt pulley didn't line up with the crank pulley.. Had to redo the spacers to get the belt lined up so it wouldn't jump off the pulleys and hit me smack in the face.. OK, got that done.. Start the engine up again.. Having a major idle issues, engine dies immediately if you let go of the gas pedal.. Turn up the idle, well it would only idle at +1300rpm;s.. To damn high.. Play around with the carb little more.. Again the engine dies and just before that al the light inside the cockpit went dark.. OK, so I have an electrical gremlin.. Battery is empty.. Recharge the battery and get the engine to run again.. Start to investigate and notice the generator ain't chargin.. Now I'm like -What the F..K ?? Well turns out that one of the little FLD coil spring "thingys" is loose, I tighten the little screw that holds the little coil and spring in place, well I manage to bust up the threads.. -Now this is just F..Inga great.. Call my buddy and borrow his generator.. Well good idea but this generator again needs different spacers so the belt will line up with crank and generator pulley.. Got that done, well its late and I went home and had a few beers...

Third try:

* Well after taking a time out from the Charger I headed back to the garage.. Got the 440 started again and trying to figure out the idle problem.. Well I also found out that a Mopar mini starter doesn't like to crank over a 440 with 10.7:1 in comp many times after another.. -You guessed it, the damn starter burns to a crisp.. Now this is just so much fun -Damn I hate my life right now !! Unbolt the burnt starter and get the great idea that will ultimately lead to disaster.. I bolt on the old stock Mopar starter.. By the way, it does really clear the TTi headers, to attache the electric wires is a bitch, but other than that no biggie, though you do have to unbolt the driver side header to get enough space to fit the stock starter.. Well everything is in place and I'm good to go.. My friend cranks the engine and with a loud "BANG" the engine kicks back with the starter still engaging with the result that three teeth from the turbine starter ring are busted.. Now I really want to cry... "Good" news is though that the stock starter didn't get busted (like that knowledge would make me feel any better).. Up with the Charger on jackstands, unbolt the exhaust system, tranny oil lines, shifter linkage, unbolt the drive shaft and pull down the tranny.. Took the turbine to a tranny shop and they welded on a new starter ring, took two days until I got it back. During those two days I also bought a new mini starter..

Fourth try..

* The day begins even before the birds are awake.. Lift up the tranny, bolt on drive shaft and the oil lines and shifter linkage.. Almost get my face busted up one time and almost crack my sternum bone once when I'm remounting the exhaust system.. First time my grip on the X-pipe fails and it hits me right over my chin, the next accident is that again my grip fails when I'm mounting the muffler and it lands right on my chest.. A Dynomax Turbo flow muffler isn't light, so it knocked the wind outtaw my lungs for a second or two..

Well now everything is mounted.. Start check is made and everything looks ok.. I decide now is a good time to redo the sparkplugg wires as well, this takes its own time, I want the wiring to look good.. Ok, time for a new launch procedure.. Then -Lo and behold the mother f..er fires right up.. Still missing about 1500rpms for some reason, rews kinda ok up to about 5000rpm, but after that the 440 starts to sputters and have hickups.. Well me and my mech friend have to pull the plug, cause its really late and I dont want to explane myself to any cop that might come and check out what the hell we are rewing an engine in an apartment building garage at 10pm..

Fifth try..

Cause of work I couldn't go to the garage for a period of two weeks..

Well here we go again.. Still having idle issues, cant get the damn carb to co-operate, so checking the timing goes to "Chevy".. Then something really weird happens, the spark dissapears.. -What the hell ?? Time again to pull out the voltage meter and start to investigate.. Battery seems ok, MSD box is getting juice.. Then "-BINGO !!" For some weird reason the MSD box wont give any current through the coil positive wire, I could only measure about 0.8-1.2 volts when cranking, no wonder there is no spark.. Well again "Murphy's Laws" comes into play.. The busted MSD box explanes allot.. Feel like an idiot cause I didint check the voltage to/from the MSD box a long time ago.. At this moment I really felt like bangin my head against the garage floor..

So now a order for a MSD Digital-6 Plus is making its way East bound over the Atlantic ocean..

I never thought building a "race" car would be this damn fun.. Im realy concidering to have a Doctor prescribe me Valium meds to take before I go back to the garage to meet my Nemesis again.. or maby I should start to smoke "bong", that might make the battle with the 440 much more interesting and take it up to a more nice and relaxed dimension...

Thanks guys if you read through my whole Declaration of Missfortune..

/Tom

[RD]

tom,
  you have definitely shown more patience then me.  there would be broken parts all over the garage if that happened to me (yoda would tell me: "anger issues you have" )

keep a stiff upper chin! just dont let the xpipe hit it this time hehehe

good luck buddy

[Chryco Psycho]

hang in there it will be worth it ...... eventually

[Brock Samson]

Wow Tom, That sucks... How's it commin?.. see ya in Chat... 

[greenrt_se]

Tom,now you have to use that, what Finnish men using during winter war:SISUA

[moparguy01]

aint ya glad i thought bout checking the voltage?

sorry to hear ya got so many problems buddy. You'll get it licked here sooner or later.

[Mefirst]

aint ya glad i thought bout checking the voltage?

Russ** Yeah Buddy, you did tell me, like a month ago, to check the MSD box.. Well my demented brain forgot al about it.. It struck me again when I was in the garage last weekend that I hadnt checked the damn box..

Well Im gonna need alot of that "Sisu" Timo posted about and just hope things will go better once I get the new MSD box..

/Tom

[firefighter3931]

Geez Tom....that car is fighting you tooth and nail ! Keep at it...once the bugs are all ironed it it will be worth it. I'm still looking forward to that case of heineken.  

Ron

[Mefirst]

Geez Tom....that car is fighting you tooth and nail ! Keep at it...once the bugs are all ironed it it will be worth it. I'm still looking forward to that case of heineken. 

Ron

Hey Ron** If the car continues fighting with me, I think Ill drink that case of Heineken myself Well I really do hope your project will be allot smoother than what I have had to deal with. My ride doesn't even fight within the Geneva Convention rules, its a total dog fight...

/Tom

[Charger_Fan]

Geez, that's quite a list of gremlins you're dealing with! Keep at it though, because soon you will come out on top & the car will be fun to own and drive again.

[Doc74]

Tom don't get me wrong but you got me rolling on the floor here. You should have your own column here. 
I'm about to lease a bus and load it up with mechanics to come and help you out.
But now on a positive note, it DID start over, at least there's positive things too.
Hope you find the solution soon.
Any new pics btw ? You under the exhaust or something? 

[greenrt_se]

Hi Tom
I hope at I  have a time to come to Stockholm,grab a few bottle of vodka in my pocket and help you to fix you car,but it going to next summer when I can (and I come) to sweden(to power meet)so I think,before that time yours charger gonna kick some ass

[Mefirst]

Tom don't get me wrong but you got me rolling on the floor here. You should have your own column here.
I'm about to lease a bus and load it up with mechanics to come and help you out.
But now on a positive note, it DID start over, at least there's positive things too.
Hope you find the solution soon.
Any new pics btw ? You under the exhaust or something?

Hey Doc **

Well I have actually thought about creating a Blog, Id call it "-101 ways of going insane when working on a race car"
Sadly I don't have any pics of me when the X-pipe hit me in the face and when the muffler landed on my chest, well that pic of my facial expression would have been so gross that I don't think Troy would have let me post that pic.. About pics, reason I haven't really taken any new pics is that those new pics would look exactly the same as the ones before, in other words my car in a dark garage.. But Ill take new pics the second I get my ride outside into the sunlight, even if there would be 4 feet of snow on the ground..

Timo**

Yeah, It would be awsome to go check out the Power Meet, last time I was there was 2 years ago.. There is also a "small" Mopar meet at Vesterås at the same time.. We need to plan this..

Another News Flash.. I have a electric engineer guy check out the old MSD box, more for fun, but maby he is able to check out whats wrong with it, and maby fix it, not that I hold any high hopes, but one never knows..

/Tom

[Mefirst]

The Battle continues...

Well seems that the MSD 7AL-2 box works after al.. so no need for a new box.

Ive done some brain work and Im now concentrating on the distributor. Noticed that the magnetic pickup was changed out at some point and when I peeked inside the dist. It seems that the pickup is moving and that not everything is ok with it. Im gonna do some resistance measuring to check that the signal really goes through the wires, Ill still put in a new magnetic pickup and hopefully that will help the situation with the lost spark..

If this wont cure the problem, well then im al outtaw ideas and someone brave enough can buy my ride and continue.. If nobody feels up to the challenge, well then I think Ill just honer my distant grand fathers and give the Charger a real Viking burial and start a stamp collection and join a chess club...

/Tom

[Charger_Fan]

Stamp collecting still uses too much money, collect moth's instead...they're free.

[Chryco Psycho]

is the coil working ?

[Mefirst]

is the coil working ?

Im also gonna check the coil once I get my ass from work and out to the garage, I forgot to mention the coil in my previous post. The coil is a Blaster II coil.

/Tom

[cudaken]

 Tom, you are preaching to the choir and I tade you Charger's right now.

Here is a short versons of my owes.

$7000.00 in the 440, had rebulit 3 times and never started. Just want to make sure it was right. Brought home and off we go.

Frist time we started to install the 440, left engine motor mount ear get's broken off. Back to the machine shop again and another $250.00

Cheap headers, took 3 hours to get the 440 in with 2 skilled frineds, had to pull steering column.

Took a hour to get the stock starter in, was laying against a header pipe. No reason to turn it over.

Bought a Mini, easy fit but another $125.00

Using stock 72 intake, but missing choke close off plate. Took 3 hours to try to make one, broke cheap bolt of in the intake. Got that out, taped the hole but plate would still not seal.

Felpro 1215 gasket fix that but another $35.00.

Have M/T valve covers, used them on other Mopars I have. Went to install throttle linkage, peddel was hard to push and when moved stuck 2/3 to the floor? Turn's out the kick down was catching on the Valve covers? Odd, and I have used these covers before on other BB's? Stuck a spacer under the kick down and was fixed.

Dropped in the battry to see if it was dead, hit the lights and nothing. Hooked up a charger for 30 minutes and still nothing. Traced power to the bulkhead and after that nothing. Pulled that apart, cleaned the spade ends and still nothing. Finally foud a wire that by passed the fuseabl link. Had power and was happy.

Went to crank her over and new starter would not stop cranking? Not sure what the heck happen there. Next day it was fine?

Got her lite on 9-25 and got the cam broke in and barely. Melted 4 spark plug boots and where new blue Max's. Bought new boots and fired up again, turns out timing was 10 degress retarded. Had some junk on the balncer that I thought was the timing mark. She was also blowing oil out the dipstick tube and brown foam was in the radataior. Foam was just junk in the radatior and blow by did stop.

Changed oil after cam break in, 65 PSI at idle. Installed new oil and fliter, blew the oil flitter seal. Not a big deal, 2 quarts of oil on the floor but still had 7 in her.

OK she running and sound good

Take her on her first trip to local car show with friends, all 3 of us that went got a second places in are class Got some 100 Octane AV fuel and life was good.

Second time out, was told to give her a little hell to help seat the Plasma Chrome Molly rings. 15 MPH roll with 2.76 sure gripp, 3/4 thottle and ripped the hides, but heard a rattel? Backed of and was quite again and still has 65 PSI. Got gas and had a friend listen to the 440. Fired her up and Bob said sounds good, then I got her up to 1500 RPM's Bob looked at me and said "Ken, it's junk, either a bad wrist pin or broken skrit"!

Pulled the 440 and took her apart, number 4 rod bolt only had 1 bolt tight Called shop that re did her the last time, told me to pi-s off Also found 2 holes where 1 and 2 compresion rings that where with in 10 degress of each other and 1 where all 3 gaps oil ring gaps where in line. They also painted my timing chain?

440 is yet at a 4th shop, and will hear Monday if it all junk or can be saved. I bought all of the best parts, did not go cheap on any thing. Even has APR Main Studs and beam's where poshiled, shoot penned and harden.

Not counting the Blower, there is $7000.00 in the long block and did get to drive her a whole 90 miles.

Like I said Tom, you are preaching to the choir. If I can save this mess, will be pretty much stock again. I don't need a 9 quart oil pan anyway.

                           Cuda Ken

[Mefirst]

Ken**

Ive followed/read your threads about your engine problems.. I think you and me should start a support group..

Well I just hope that our luck soon changes for the better..

/Tom

[cudaken]

 Either that or EITHER THAT OR BUY STOCK IN A BEWERY

Hope yours turns out better than mine did.


                                    Ken

[Mefirst]

Well my dear Charger.com members who have been reading about my Proclamation combined with Declaration of Missfortune..

Well me and my trusty friend the Volt/Amp meeter have been busy.. Seems that the MSD stuff works like it should, well the magnetic pickup seems dead, cant get any ohm readings from it, well new ones is on its way.. But the more I searched for problems the more I found, so Im at a compleat stand still, the problems are much deeper than I expected.. Seems that Im not having only a couple electrical Goblins, quite the opposite.. I need to check the whole bastard son of a B... engine/dash wire harness, seems there are some major issues that need to be looked into, in plain English, I have to check out every single wire that has something to do with the ignition in my ride.. It may turn out that I have to buy a brand new wire harness..

Well Ill try to look positive into this predicament, once I get the F..er running I can without hesitation also include Electrical Engineer in my CV if I ever need that..

My "love" for the classic car hobby is rather low right now.. Like I posted before, the stamp collection and Chess club membership feels more and more interesting after each visit to the garage...

/Tom


Ps. Here are some Volt/Ohm readings you need to remember when dealing with MSD stuff if you get stuck out on the road..
(These readings are the same for 6 and 7 boxes, also including the Digital ones...)


*You measure this resistans with a Multimeter in Ohms scale with Ign. Key at OFF !!

Ill start with the Coil, in this case a Blaster II coil.

Disconnect the wire between Distributor and Coil !!!

-Primary Resistance: It should read 0.7 Ohms in a Blaster II coil.
You measure this resistance by applying the "Volt" meter probe to the coils + and - terminals.

-Secondary Resistance: This reading should be in the area of 4,7k Ohms.
You measure this by applying the neg. Volt meter probe to the coil negative terminal, then stick the pos. probe into the coil (Into the same "hole" where the wire between the Coil and the Dist goes)

If you get a reading that says 0 Ohms or some totally weird readings, check that your multimeter is at the correct scale, if you still get weird readings and you are shore that you measure right, then your coil is busted..

Moving on to the MSD Ignition box.

There isnt much you can measure with a multimeter on a MSD Ignition box, you need an Oscilloscope if you really want to check out every thing.
What you can measure is the resistance in the Coil pos. and neg. wire. This reading can be anywhere between 400-1300 Ohms.
You measure this at both ends of the coil wires, measure at the box terminals and at the connection to the magnetic pickup wires. If you dont get any reading from the magnetic pickup wires, well then you have a fried magn. pickup.

This is about al you really can measure when running an Electronic Ignition system.

Then again there is one more thing you can measure. This time use the Volt scale on your multimeter !!

Check the Voltage from battery when cranking, you can also check this reading at the MSD ignition box Main Power terminals. The voltage should not drop under 10 Volts, cause the MSD box will NOT function with a Voltage reading of 10 Volts or less...

[greenrt_se]

I just measure my blaster II coil.....primary shows 2,0 ohms   and secondary nothing...   can that be ok,cause I can drive my car (ok the idle quality is bad and that damn problem whit hot motor(if cool down abouth 1hour it don`t start running))

[Mefirst]

Timo**

According to what Ive read on the MSD tech forum the coil is busted if you dont get those resistance readings.. Try to run the engine with another coil you know is good.. (This is also the answer youll get from the MSD tech guys)

But then again those Blaster Coils are real survivors, a friend of mine has a Blaster II coil that leaked oil and was cracked, it worked like it was "new". His ride is a Six-pack 70 Cuda.. Mind you he also raced the car on the 1/4 mile and ran times of 12sec...

/Tom

[Mefirst]

Update 5/1-2006...

Well my dear friends and maby even fans... Its official, the Charger is dead eventhough long and intense medical treatments were issued.. I just could not get the "heart" started cause lack of electrical spark...

OK, well in auto mechanical terms the ignition box is fuc.. -Sorry, I ment crapped out.. Its dead, it is no more, it has seased to exist, its an ex ignition box, there is no life in it.. I'm gonna throw it into the garage wall... anyways, this predicament made me redo the whole dash and engine harness, so thats positive, but the problem was not there...

Its weird though cause I had an electrical nerd check the box out and it seemed to work OK. I even had the engine running. The problems began when the rear light fuse blew when my friend pushed the brake pedal and tried to get the trans into gear, at the same time the horn got a seizure and started to scream and the engine died. What probably happend was that the positive current started to run through the negative wires in the rear of the car and caused havoc in the electrical system, it also seems that this unfortunate happening fried the MSD box. My guess is that its some small electrical part, some diode, or something like that, that took a beating and fried inside the ignition box killing it.

Well the news is that Ill buy a new ignition box, at first I thought about to just run with the stock Mopar silver ignition box and add a rew limiter, but cause electrical stuff is so damn fun I thought id continue to keep my mental state and health interesting and buy the MSD Digital 6 ignition box...

Thats whats happening right now... Ill keep you updated on how this will turn out...

/Tom

[firefighter3931]

Tom, sorry to hear about the ignition woes. Why the digital 6 ? Personally, i'd just go for the 6al and keep it simple.  

Ron

[Danny Gutierrez]

  Sorry to hear about all the troubles you've been having.  Don't give up on the hobby yet.  If you remember, I had electrical issues last summer.  The 69 left me stranded a few times in the 95 degree heat.  Took me over a month and lots of $$$$ and parts to get her running right.  Now the engine is smoking so I need to tear the motor down and find out if I need a rebuild.  My Dad is coming to visit me and my kids in February and he said he'd help me pull and rebuild my motor.  He's the one I learned from as a kid about cars.  He used to have me and my brother tear down motors that he was rebuilding on weekends.   

[Mefirst]

Tom, sorry to hear about the ignition woes. Why the digital 6 ? Personally, i'd just go for the 6al and keep it simple. 

Ron

Hey Ron..

I kinda like the stuff that you can do with the Digital 6, I specially like the start timing retard feature. You also have a second timing retard feature and 2x rew limiter.. I know the 6AL would be just fine, even the Mopar silver box would do the job quite alright, but then there is the dumb "coolness" factor...

/Tom

[Charger_Fan]

I'll keep my fingers crossed for ya, hopefully this time is the charm.

[Rolling_Thunder]

damn dude...   ur luck sounds almost as bad as mine....     ur charger take about a quart of blood and break 7 bones yet ?  hahaha     Hope you get this electical shit sorted out...   i hear nothing but bad stories about MSD...   buddy of mine ran one in his 1969 Charger and went through 4 boxes...     said screw it and put on a regular mopar ignition and ran like a champ....     

[HDCharger]

I think I deserve to be a charter member of the “Engine Problems Group” My woes continue as well.

Late June 2002 â€" I just got the engine back from “Cajun Dyno” in Alexandria, LA at a cost of 2800 I dropped her in the Charger without ever turning the key and off I went to Kuwait for 13 months.

August of 2003 rolls around and I drag the car to my dads house in Alabama and spend the next 3 days getting her ready to run.  NOT.  What’s this Antifreeze and water coming out of the header?  Pull the header and yep you guessed it, head was cracked but wait I had the receipt for pressure testing from “Cajun Dyno” so I call them up and they were out of business because the owner died while I was in Kuwait.  Pull the useless 906 heads that I had machined for larger valves, hardened seats, etc and tossed them to the side and ordered a set of Edelbrocks from Hughes.

January 2004 drug the car to my new home in Clarksville, TN put the head on it and getting ready to put the headers on it.  What’s this?  Can not get to the plugs with eddys and thorley headers.  D*&^

February 2004 my second trip to the Middle East, this time Iraq.

August 2004 I’m back home and got my brand new TTI 1 7/8” headers and they are ready to go on finally.

November 2004 Welded up some cheap mufflers so the neighbors won’t call the law and I get her ready to fire.  We have ignition!  Ran for 10 minutes and timing cover is leaking so I shut her down. 

January and cold as H*** and I’m tearing the front off the engine and replacing the gaskets and putting an aluminum housing on the water pump.

March 2005 and I have got her reassembled and ready to fire.  Nothing, will not hit.  Give up for a while.

June 2005 and I’m on my way to my third trip to the Middle East (2nd in Iraq).

Nov 22nd 2005(My Birthday) and I’m going to make it home for Thanksgiving.  I get my new 2.5”  TTI exhaust on the car on get her ready to run or so I thought.  3 days and I get nothing. 

Dec 31st 2005 With some help from Ron and Neil I get her to fire and she sounds good.  Were in business?  Nope.  She had a leak and I pulled the dipstick and lo and behold the oil smells just like GAS. A lot of gas, maybe 50-50!!! Yikes!  Scary.  Drain the oil put in fresh oil and try it again, no fire.  Pulled the plugs for about the 10th time cleaned them put them back in and she fired right up for about 15 seconds and died.  My dad had the timing light on different wires and some were firing, some not.  It’s a brand new Mopar electronic system other than sitting for a while its got less than 15 minutes on it.  Same with the Street Avenger Carb.  I’ve checked the gap on the reluctor a dozen times.  Double checked the wiring as best I knew how, Bought a new Accell Coil, New ECU box, I ran a ground from the block to the ECU to make sure I was grounded.  What the hell, give up again something is not right.  Motors are really simple you say?  Fuel/Air and Spark. 

Jan 3rd 2006 â€" Pulled the Carter fuel pump to make sure it wasn’t pumping fuel into the timing cover.  Its was ok as far as I can tell.  My new Holley 4150 (830cfm) arrived so I mounted her on the engine and still got nothing.  Won’t hit a lick.  What gives?  I’ve got receipts for at least $8500 dollars on an engine alone that will not run!  Frustration does not even begin to explain.  I’ve cursed, moaned, threatened to sell, burn, you name it.

Jan 6th 2006 â€" Got my MSD pro-billet distributor and waiting on the 6AL box.  If this don’t fix it you may find a nice Charger in the For Sale Section.  I am tired of buying the same things over and over.  Lessons learned is ask around and but the right thing the first time, however, I did talk to people and they said they have ran the Mopar ignition system for years with no trouble.

[Mefirst]

HDCharger... I feel your pain brother.. I just hope it will work out in the end, but getting there sucks when things don't want to go as planed...

I already wrote earlier that I will give my Charger a real Viking burial and scarify her to my great ancestors if she wont start to coperate soon...

/Tom

[HDCharger]

I hear you man.  Update:  I got my Mopar 6AL Box and my MSD Probillet distributor and getting ready to put her in and her we go again.  I have to have the spark plug type end on the plug wires for the distributor so I make a run to the parts house and there is none in stock.  I ordered a set from Jegs and they will be here next week.  Its going to be 65 degrees tomorrow and man I'm missing a great opportunity to work on her, there won't be many more of those days left this winter.  Good luck brother and keep us posted on the progress.  Dave