House to look at opening US waters for drilling today.

[Dave22443]

What tics me off about gas prices more than anything else (and there are plenty of "else's") is the very day oil jumps in price, the pump price goes up.  But when oil drops, the pumps stay the same, or take weeks or even months to drop back down.   

The oil companies are instant on the price hike, but very S-L-O-W on the decrease.

[Dave22443]

Hey!  That was my 800th post 

[SeattleCharger]

they should be making a little less profit like every other company who's costs have gone up

Why should they do that? I work for a small family owned business and we are raising are prices. Why should we eat the cost?

I sell stuff on E-Bay all the time. Shipping prices are going though the roof. Should I charge my customers shipping prices from a year ago, and eat the extra cost because I am a nice guy? Hell no I am not going to do that. What kind of stupid business move would that be on my part. The oil companys are in business to make a profit,  just like everyone else.

I have a small business, and I guess I have a hard time raising prices, I actually haven't before once I sort of set a fair price.  If I get into a job and real quick see I misbid it I will talk about that with them, so its fair, but I mean regular accounts that are repeating jobs over years, you know?  I see inflation go up and that, but don't really know how to approach them for fear of losing the account, they might be totally fine with it, I don't know,

[BigRed66]

I just wanna know this...I was reading in the Sunday Paper that the Arabs agreed to increase output to an unprecedented 10 Million barrels a day; more than at any time in history. Okay. Now, today, I read on MSNBC.com that oil is at another record high; 140 dollars a barrel almost today, before settling around 134 dollars. "Analysts" and "experts" and "speculators" all cite uncertainties this, unknowns that, yet oil keeps rising. This is NOT a supply and demand issue. This is a gouging issue. Where is all the F@#KING outrage? On blogs and message boards? In your local paper's editorial pages? At Moe's Corner Tavern? WTF?  My head is seriously going to explode, I am so pissed off that there seems to be this "devil-may-care" attitude from these dick-munchers in Washington...Look, I am lucky. I have a GREAT job. I have had my share of jobs that were not so great, and I just don't know how I could do it (the gas, the commute, food prices, rent, etc.) were I still so unfortunate. I am sure there are some of you all reading this right now who are one or two paychecks from losing something. Cable shut off. Phone shut off. Maybe even worse. When the EFF is someone going to do something about this?

Dig into my pockets to help Chinese earthquake victims? Bite me. No way. Help a hair-lip in Bangladesh? Nope. Sorry. I need peanut butter this month. Want me to help a homeless Veteran? You got it. A local family victimized by a fire? My wallet is open. The local 16-year-old here who was killed in a car accident whose family is not only dealing with the loss of their 2nd child in 10 years, but who has no idea how to pay to bury their son? I am car-pooling for two weeks so I can give them $100. Those are sacrifices I will willingly make.

Paying $4+ a gallon for $1.75 gas shouldn't be one. Wake Up, America.

[Mike DC]

 
I agree with the outrage, but I don't think oil prices are the right direction to point so much of it. 


I don't remember everyone talking about how fine & dandy everything was back in 2003-2005.  Gasoline really was more like $2 or $2.50/gallon back then.  We were just as furious about a different set of gripes. 



   

[Troy]

From Google...

It's 9.7 million barrels (3% under 10 million). The 200,000 barrels per day is approximately a 2% increase in the Saudi output.
It's the Saudi's highest output since 1981. That would be some other time in history.
The US only purchases about 16% of Saudi oil production and that only accounts for about 12% of US imports.
So, in the grand scheme of things, the Saudis just helped us out with a .247% increase in supply and you're asking why the market didn't respond? To put that in perspective, if you make $10 per hour that's like getting a 2 cent raise (5 cents if you make $20 per hour).
This may also be interesting: http://www.gravmag.com/oil3.html#setprice

$1.75 for gas? How did you calculate that? Oil would need to drop below $40 per barrel to see that price at the pump.
More reading: http://www.gravmag.com/oil3.html#barrel2

Troy

[BigRed66]

$1.75 for gas? How did you calculate that? Oil would need to drop below $40 per barrel to see that price at the pump.

Troy

...what I'm saying is that ragheads and DC politicians are getting rich and fat at OUR expense, and that no way is $4.00/gal possibly justifiable. Look at what they pay in Caracas, Venezuela: $0.19/gal. Lagos, Nigeria: $0.38. Iran: $0.42 United Arab Emirates: $1.40...etc., and so on...think that's fair? It's the same friggin' oil.

"Dependance on oil" is a phrase the Greenies and tree-boners throw around when talking about the United States. Whatever. Have solar heat? Ride a bicycle? Have you always? Yeah, right. Sell that BS down at the Prius dealership. I'm not buying it. We all use oil in one form or another, as does the entire world.

And you sound as though you're AGAINST $40/bbl oil...that's not the case, is it? You must be happy paying 4 bucks a gallon, then...either that, or you're in deep with Exxon, Mobil, Shell, BP, etc...I don't think that's the case, either...

My basic point/argument is that this raping of the consumer is being met with almost NO resistance in Washington. Every 10 days or so we get fed a little kibble that seems as if someone's on "our" side and "they" are going to look into "exactly what the hell is going on"...then it dissipates, gas goes up another quarter, oil a few more dollars a barrel, and CEOs are happy, investors are happy, and we're out here on a daily basis grabbing our ankles and holding on for dear life. It's fugging bullshit. But, thanks for all the stats. I'll be sure to use them....

[Mike DC]

 
Yeah, but we ARE totally dependent on oil. 
The rest of the world is dependent as well, but not to the same ludicrous degree that we are.


Our extreme dependency is not a problem just because a bunch of tree-hugging greenies want to take our evil musclecars away.  It's a problem because a couple hundred million more Chinese & Indian people are gonna be bidding for the same amount of worldwide oil in a few years.  The supply & demand math is pretty simple. 


   

[Troy]

Venezuela (and many other oil-producing nations) subsidize gasoline for their own citizens. Their prices don't reflect the real-world value of gasoline.

We are the world's largest consumer of oil. We alone use 20%. So yes, the rest of the world uses oil but the situation is completely different. We are dependent on oil. Europe has very good public transportation systems but we are too spread out and heavily dependent on automobiles for everyday use.

Sure, I'm against $40 per barrel for oil... Whatever, I'm a realist. It's not going to happen because of exactly what Mike said. Other countries with rapidly expanding economies are bidding on the same oil that we crave. We aren't going to be the largest consumer for long. The world is (and has been) at or near the limits on oil and gasoline production for a long time and that's not a situation that can be fixed overnight.

The stats were purely for people with their head in the sand who are unwilling to do the tiniest amount of research - yet love to complain about why nobody else is doing anything and/or why it's someone else's fault. The blame rests primarily on the consumer so the consumer should suffer the consequences. What ever happened to personal responsibility? I put about 300 miles per week on my car just for work and errands. I don't see anything wrong with buying something like a Prius to drive to work every day (other than the fact that I don't want a car payment and the payment would be more than I'd save). I'd need nearly 12 gallons of gas less per week (2/3rds or 66% of my weekly use) and keep $45 in my pocket. That's a pretty big chunk! Just driving a small(er) economy car (from any manufacturer) would nearly cut my use in half. I can still drive my Chargers on the weekends just like I do now.

If we, as a country, decided to cut our consumption by just 5% that would be nearly 16 million barrels per month (about 2.6 times as much as the Saudis just added). It would impact the world market with a 1% decrease in demand. I could do that much by not going out to lunch every day so it's not that hard. Yes, I know some businesses can't make that sort of change and some people have situations that aren't that flexible but there's 400 million people in this country so if 10% of them saved 1 gallon per week that would be approximately equal to 2 million gallons of oil. The problem is that no one in this country wants to be in the 10% that cuts back. We all expect someone else to make sacrifices so that we can continue to live our lives just as we always have. I'm not talking about riding bicycles, public transportation, or walking everywhere. It's 1 gallon per week OR 20-30 miles for most people.

On a slightly different topic, another useful thing to read would be the Registration Agreement for this site. Here's an excerpt from the very first paragraph:
"You agree, through your use of this forum, that you will not post any material which is false, defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, adult material, or otherwise in violation of any International or United States Federal law."

Troy

[jeryst]

Congress was told how to fix the problem instantly, and THEY HAVE NOT DONE A THING. It's time to vote them all out again.

[SeattleCharger]

Venezuela (and many other oil-producing nations) subsidize gasoline for their own citizens. Their prices don't reflect the real-world value of gasoline.



Re: House to look at opening US waters for drilling today.
« Reply #109 on: Today at 08:50:16 AM »   

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Congress was told how to fix the problem instantly, and THEY HAVE NOT DONE A THING. It's time to vote them all out again.

don't know how to put two quotes in, whatever.

         Our country could subsidize gasoline for our citizens.   They subsidize other things don't they?   We had the smallest deficet ever going into bush idiot times and now we have the largest deficet ever, and gas is three times as much, we are still in Iraq, and where is all the dang oil we were supposed to get from this war?   where is it all?   I can't belive Bush and his oil buddies who have corrupted our government for their own profits (haliburton and cheney and the oil companies, etc.) would spend 1000 billion dollars (1 trillion) on being in Iraq and they didn't secure any of that prime prime prime crude oil over there?  give me a break, do you really believe that?
    they are probably stock piling it for the future.    getting china and india, the next probable economic superpowers, dependent on oil, and then us being the ones in control of this oil in the future, means we will control them ultimately.  just watch, china and india can have all the cars they want, but do they have a military that can stand up to ours?  do they drill for oil?  do they have their hands in the middle east?  No
   do the middle east countries buy their weapons from them in exchange for oil?  (jet fighters, etc.)  No. 
   

[Troy]

We already subsidize ethanol - because it costs more than gas. That's working well. Now the government just takes more of your (and everyone else's money) to pay for something that no one asked for. The government is not exactly a well-oiled machine so, in the end, it costs more to have the program in place than it would to just buy the product directly. The difference is that people who don't even benefit have to pay so that the ones who do benefit get a break. Other oil producing nations subsidize the cost by using the profits that they make off of selling the oil (not taxes). These other countries produce more than they can use (unlike us) and, typically, own the oil companies (unlike us).

I won't bother to comment on the rest of that because I'd like to see this thread last through the day.

Troy

[SeattleCharger]

oops, sorry, guess I was going into politics there     

[Troy]

oops, sorry, guess I was going into politics there     

You were?

Troy

[69charger2002]

haha..    here's to the thread lasting another day     as i would love to chip in my $.02, but i won't

[Dave22443]

Troy,

  I hear what you are saying, but I have to disagree with you.  (respectfully of course)  I think people are cutting back dramatically on the amount of gas they are using, mainly because its so darn expensive.  I think the only people that aren't cutting back are those that either have no choice because they were already as streamlined as they could get, or those with enough money that they don't care.

  My gas usage is WAY down.  Part of the reason is because I am currently out of work and have been for a while now so I really don't have anywhere to go, and the other reason is that when I do have to go out, if I can use my motorcycle, I do.  It gets 55 MPG, unlike my truck which gets 15 mpg.  On the occasion that I do have to take the truck, I plan ahead and try to knock out at least 4 other things in one trip.  Buying a car with better gas milage is not an option for me and neither is getting rid of the truck.

  We do seem to agree that we all knew this problem was coming a long time ago and I guess that has been my point all along.  Why they heck haven't we been drilling everywhere to head it off?  If the US produced more oil than it needed (like so many other countries do) WE could be the ones with really cheap gas and NO budget defficit. 

  Why should the Arabs have all the fun   

[Troy]

We don't have enough underground to produce more than we use. According to 2006 numbers from the Department of Energy, we have 21.757 billion barrels in "proved reserves". We are currently consuming about 21 million barrels per day (20,687,410) but importing 12 million (12,356,950) of those. If we just used our oil (provided we could pump it out of the ground fast enough) we'd run out in just under 1,052 days (35 months or 2.9 years). You wouldn't even have a new car halfway paid off yet. By comparison, Saudi Arabia has 266.810 billion barrels of reserves and our buddies in Canada have 178.792 billion.

Your example was one end of the spectrum. The opposite end contains businesses and people who can't drive less. There are a whole lot of people in between. There are a whole lot of people who drive trucks (like the new Ram 1500 Hemi which gets about 13 mpg) when they haven't ever stuck anything in the bed or an SUV just because it has a DVD player for the rear seat passengers. Those people have a choice - well, at least they had one when they picked a vehicle to drive every day. I mentioned my own situation above. My truck gets 17-20 mpg but it is paid off. If I had a $500 per month payment it would be long gone. I drive about 300-350 miles per week so it doesn't make financial sense to go into debt on a new car that only gets 30-40 mpg (I'd save $145-188 per month but I'd have $350-400 car payment plus full coverage insurance). It's easier for me to drink less Mountain Dew or pack my lunch a few days per week. Some people have cut way back but I don't think it's a large percentage of the population. The DOE tracks consumption on a weekly basis so that might be something interesting to watch.

Troy

[jeryst]

I used to drive 75 miles each way to work every day. I guess the only bright spot in losing my job in February, is that I dont have to drive it any more.

[SeattleCharger]

oops, sorry, guess I was going into politics there     

You were?

Troy

                    

[BigRed66]

We don't have enough underground to produce more than we use. According to 2006 numbers from the Department of Energy, we have 21.757 billion barrels in "proved reserves". We are currently consuming about 21 million barrels per day (20,687,410) but importing 12 million (12,356,950) of those. If we just used our oil (provided we could pump it out of the ground fast enough) we'd run out in just under 1,052 days (35 months or 2.9 years). You wouldn't even have a new car halfway paid off yet. By comparison, Saudi Arabia has 266.810 billion barrels of reserves and our buddies in Canada have 178.792 billion.

Your example was one end of the spectrum. The opposite end contains businesses and people who can't drive less. There are a whole lot of people in between. There are a whole lot of people who drive trucks (like the new Ram 1500 Hemi which gets about 13 mpg) when they haven't ever stuck anything in the bed or an SUV just because it has a DVD player for the rear seat passengers. Those people have a choice - well, at least they had one when they picked a vehicle to drive every day. I mentioned my own situation above. My truck gets 17-20 mpg but it is paid off. If I had a $500 per month payment it would be long gone. I drive about 300-350 miles per week so it doesn't make financial sense to go into debt on a new car that only gets 30-40 mpg (I'd save $145-188 per month but I'd have $350-400 car payment plus full coverage insurance). It's easier for me to drink less Mountain Dew or pack my lunch a few days per week. Some people have cut way back but I don't think it's a large percentage of the population. The DOE tracks consumption on a weekly basis so that might be something interesting to watch.

Troy

Rule number one: do not believe what the government tells you. The Department of Energy is lying to all of us. My brother, who just received a Doctorate degree in geological studies and subterranean land-mapping (or something to that effect) and graduated at the top of his class at The University of North Dakota, was telling me today as we were discussing this issue, that in North and South Dakota alone, there is enough shale oil to last 400 years. The United States, though, has not opened one new refinery in 32 years. Now, politically, I am neither left- nor right-leaning, but, the Democrats in this country refuse to allow drilling for whatever reason. I do not place blind faith in my government. Therefore, I believe that any "facts" levied by the DOE are skewed, and should be looked at with scrutiny. In fact, I feel the government is out to bleed each and every one of us dry. I don't believe that politicians are behind this crisis; the blame lies solely on the shoulders of all the speculators and so-called industry experts. I only want to know why Washington's response time is so slow. (FEMA? Katrina? Hellooo?) I am not out there wantonly abusing petroleum; I am doing all I can to conserve it. But, not because I'm worried about a "carbon footprint" (another load of horseshit, I might add). I merely am trying to save some money. My first fill-up in my '98 Neon was $12.00. Now, in my SRT-4, it costs me damn near $50.00. I am just fed up with it, and I'm not alone, but I would just like someone to give me the illusion that they're concerned for the American people. So far...not so much.

[Mike DC]

   
It's true that we are beginning to see the American population making real concessions to save gas these days. 

But that's exactly the point, really --  It took $4/gallon gasoline to cause this!




We knew we needed to cut back on foreign oil dependency in 1973. 
We knew we were severely dependent and actually going to war over it in 1991. 
We knew our own domestic safety had become dependent on becoming less OPEC-dependent in 2001. 


Q.  When were we gonna stop driving millions of huge trucks & SUVs unnecessarily?  When were we gonna stop spreading out the population in the growing ex-urbs?  When were we gonna start dumping real money into non-petroleum R&D?  What were we waiting for all those decades, all the way up to about 2005? 

A.  We were waiting for the price of gas to actually hurt our lifestyle.  We'll NEVER change for anything less drastic than this.  It's been proven over and over again.

[Troy]

Oh geez...

Estimates of proved crude oil reserves do not include the following: (1) oil that may become available from known reservoirs but is reported separately as "indicated additional reserves"; (2) natural gas liquids (including lease condensate); (3) oil, the recovery of which is subject to reasonable doubt because of uncertainty as to geology, reservoir characteristics, or economic factors; (4) oil that may occur in undrilled prospects; and (5) oil that may be recovered from oil shales, coal, gilsonite, and other such sources. It is necessary that production, gathering or transportation facilities be installed or operative for a reservoir to be considered proved.

Why? You might ask...

During the early 20th century, the crude-oil industry expanded. Since then, the various attempts to develop oil shale deposits have succeeded only when the cost of shale oil production in a given region was less than the price of crude oil or its other substitutes.[53] According to a survey conducted by the RAND Corporation, the cost of producing a barrel of oil at a surface retorting complex in the United States (comprising a mine, retorting plant, upgrading plant, supporting utilities, and spent shale reclamation), would be between US$70–95 ($440–600/m3, adjusted to 2005 values). This estimate considers varying levels of kerogen quality and extraction efficiency. In order for the operation to be profitable, the price of crude oil would need to remain above these levels.

I'm no fan of the government by any stretch so don't get me wrong. I just love the argument that all "facts" are lies made up by the government. How does one begin to combat that logic? What about facts produced by other governments? Whose facts should we believe?

Troy

[Troy]

A.  We were waiting for the price of gas to actually hurt our lifestyle.  We'll NEVER change for anything less drastic than this.  It's been proven over and over again.

Amen. But first let's blame everyone else...

Troy

[Big Lebowski]

I used to drive 75 miles each way to work every day. I guess the only bright spot in losing my job in February, is that I dont have to drive it any more.

  Now that's looking on the bright side. If it makes you feel any better, some time, some where, some fool will blow something up making gas $10 a gallon. Then none of us will be able to afford to go to work.

[Mike DC]

 
As for the "true" crude oil figures, nobody on earth can say for sure.  But we can follow the money. 


I see no more refineries being built despite a growing population.  That tells me only one possible thing:  The industry does not expect to be seeing more oil in the US in the future than they aready are now.

There is no net profit in this no matter how you do the math.  The oil industry would NEVER willingly choose to reduce American oil consumption for any reason within their power.  They do not need to reduce our consumption just to jack up the price.  (Merely restraining our rate of growing consumption a little bit would do the job.)

So the only conclusion you can draw is that this stop in the growth of future American oil consumption is not within the oil industry's power.  Like maybe the necessary oil capacity (worldwide) just isn't there.