House to look at opening US waters for drilling today.

[bakerhillpins]

The environment question is a joke.  Oil companies spend millions of dollars to make sure they dont spill a drop because ever drop of oil is money.  People think the Oil business just lets oil slosh out onto the ground at every turn.

Hate to burst your bubble but the only reason they (the Oil Co's) spend any money to keep from spilling oil is because they are required to. You are absolutely correct that oil is money. And when it comes to money economics is where corporate decision making stems from, pure and simple. Shakey's point in the post (as I took it) was that BP didn't cough up that the pipeline was degrading until they got into trouble with a leak they didn't notice and had to come clean that the line needed major repairs. You can be absolutely sure that if there weren't those dang blasted greenies out there screwing it up for everyone BP would have stuck some bubble gum in the hole, left the oil on the ground (because it would have cost WAY more than the oil was worth to clean it up) and left the lines alone. Repeating this same procedure until the line started leaking so much oil that the economics made it cheaper to fix it then leave it on the ground. How about ya look at the countries where there are no regulations like Russia and China. Wonderful examples.

Half the folks I know that spend their free time bitching about the greenies are the same ones who go out and enjoy the great outdoors this country has, yet they don't bother to wonder why we can't eat the fish we catch, or swim in the lakes we have???    Maybe everyone who is complaining about the EPA and regulations should take a quick little dip in the Hong Kong bay sometime. I am not saying I agree with every rule they make either, but I sure am glad that I can, for the time being anyhow, drink the water in my well.

I for one could care less about the cost of gas and think the market will do what ever it needs to about the problem. When the cost goes up, innovation and alternative solutions become viable and spur growth, generate jobs and keep this country leading the world. That's how this country got where it is. Necessity is the mother of invention.

[mikepmcs]

  no fighting fellas.
Gratuitous hairless tree mouse shot

[chargerboy69]

Exxon getting out of the retail gasoline buiness.


They say they want to consentrate on drilling and exploration. Where we going to be drilling at guys?    They must know something.






http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5iRf7L-3NKAKsyZI9AoEQWoGoICBQD918Q2GG0

[hutch]

Oil comes from the ground, whats wrong with it spilling on the ground if no human was displaced?  If its not a spill that does not cause massive kills of some stupid artic criter who cares?  Oil is an organic element from the ground and it can be cleaned up and it does degrade over time,  It can even get into the sub surface drinking water and not effect anyone as long as they dont drink the first inch of the water line.   Its not this evil man maid thing people make it out to be.   

And what on earth point are you making shakey?  someone got shot because they had a small leak in an oil pipe line? 
I have bigger spills in my drive way than that.  Do you even know how big a place the world is?  Not in the hisory of oil have we had a spill of any size that has impacted a form of wildlife to the point it was whiped out or displaced long term.  If they spill some, clean it up, so what.  some ducks or whatever getting killed is not big deal.  Thats life.  I bet more die from tick bites or some mouth disease than from oil.



They moved as fast as they could to fix and replace all the bad pipe they could.  They dont want to spill oil or just sit and drink tea as oil spills out on the ground.  it costs them lost of money to pump that stuff out of the ground, they dont want to waste a drop of it.

Did you know that you have a much higher risk of spill or evnironment impact if you transport oil from across the sea from the middle east than you do from transport from a local source by pipe or truck?   Look at tanker spills vs pipe/trucking spills?  Tanker spills are much worse but some how we are ok with that over shipping local by truck?

I love the outdoors, but what good is the outdoors if I dont have the gas to drive someplace to see it?  if they added 1000 oil pumps in America it would take up less than 100 sq miles of area in our entire nation.  Whats the big deal? is that going to kill off every last critter known to man if they spill 1000 barrels of oil over a 50 year peirod?

what they want to do in the Northern Artic is going to be like a postage stamp footprint on the foot ball field. 

[chargerboy69]

Did you know that you have a much higher risk of spill or evnironment impact if you transport oil from across the sea from the middle east than you do from transport from a local source by pipe or truck?   Look at tanker spills vs pipe/trucking spills?  Tanker spills are much worse but some how we are ok with that over shipping local by truck?

CNN June 12 2008


By the way, the Government estimates that the outer continental shelf, the one they said no to yesterday, has 76 billion barrels of oil in it that are recoverable and that's with today's technology. Let me put that into perspective. 76 billion barrels is enough to replace every single barrel of oil that we import from everywhere outside of North America for the next 34 years at our current pace. That's in the one place, one, that congress said we couldn't go into yesterday.

But what about the environment. This is from the Government again. This have been no spills over 1,000 barrels in 15 years of the outer continental shelf drilling. The National Academy of Sciences found that the offshore industry is among the safest industrial activities in the United States. Outer continental shelf operations are more than five times less likely to cause a spill than oil tankers who are importing oil. You listen to this next time one of these environmental pinheads talk to you about the risks of drilling. You remember these words. Imports present an environmental risk of spills 13 times greater than domestic production. Let me say it again. Imports present an environmental risk of spills 13 times greater than domestic production. And, natural seeps account for 150 to 175 times more oil in the ocean than outer continental shelf oil and gas operations. Natural seeps? Natural seeps? Now we know who the real polluter is, that evil wench mother nature. Yet it's the environmentalists who continue to dictate our energy policy. Gee, I wondering why gas prices are so high. It's weird, isn't it?

[hutch]

  no fighting fellas.
Gratuitous hairless tree mouse shot

man, you best shoot that thang off into space or something.. If the feds find you have one they will turn your land into a national park.

[bakerhillpins]

  I'm not trying to get worked up.    sorry.

Did you know that you have a much higher risk of spill or evnironment impact if you transport oil from across the sea from the middle east than you do from transport from a local source by pipe or truck?   Look at tanker spills vs pipe/trucking spills?  Tanker spills are much worse but some how we are ok with that over shipping local by truck?

Don't doubt it one bit. But that should be a good reason to require a simple technology that can help mitigate the risk - Double hulled carriers. Personally, I would rather use up the other guys stuff first. Not saying that it's a good reason but its a reason.

By the way, the Government estimates that the outer continental shelf, the one they said no to yesterday, has 76 billion barrels of oil in it that are recoverable and that's with today's technology. Let me put that into perspective. 76 billion barrels is enough to replace every single barrel of oil that we import from everywhere outside of North America for the next 34 years at our current pace. That's in the one place, one, that congress said we couldn't go into yesterday.

Its an estimate. Remember Enron and the rash of other corp scandals where they were overstating profits? Recall that the Oil co's overstated estimates of reserves so they could boost their stock price based upon the reserves they said they had rights to. Anyhow, its a guess. Is there a lot there? Probably. Should we use it right now? I guess that is the debate.

But what about the environment. This is from the Government again. This have been no spills over 1,000 barrels in 15 years of the outer continental shelf drilling. The National Academy of Sciences found that the offshore industry is among the safest industrial activities in the United States. Outer continental shelf operations are more than five times less likely to cause a spill than oil tankers who are importing oil. You listen to this next time one of these environmental pinheads talk to you about the risks of drilling. You remember these words. Imports present an environmental risk of spills 13 times greater than domestic production. Let me say it again. Imports present an environmental risk of spills 13 times greater than domestic production. And, natural seeps account for 150 to 175 times more oil in the ocean than outer continental shelf oil and gas operations. Natural seeps? Natural seeps?

Im not going to argue the spill and drilling industry data, I just want you to consider the possibility that it is a direct result of the greenies pressure to have regulations that made it that way. IMHO it is THE reason.

Yet it's the environmentalists who continue to dictate our energy policy. Gee, I wondering why gas prices are so high. It's weird, isn't it?

Wow, have to admit I haven't heard that one yet. Wonder why I can get tax deduction on a Hummer but not a hybrid?? Who wrote that legislation?
Supply and demand (speculation is demand) sets price. If I use less by driving a greenie hybrid demand would go down and so would price.

[Shakey]

And what on earth point are you making shakey?

OK, here goes:

You said this:

"Look at the pipeline we have in Alaska, its never spilt a drop as far as I know."

This prompted me to type in "Alaskan Pipeline Leak" in Google and 0.24 seconds later I had a link to a story from just over two years ago that told us about the leak in the Alaskan Pipeline.

I then realized that you are a "shoot first and ask questions later type guy".

[hutch]

And what on earth point are you making shakey?

OK, here goes:

You said this:

"Look at the pipeline we have in Alaska, its never spilt a drop as far as I know."

This prompted me to type in "Alaskan Pipeline Leak" in Google and 0.24 seconds later I had a link to a story from just over two years ago that told us about the leak in the Alaskan Pipeline.

I then realized that you are a "shoot first and ask questions later type guy".

Ok so they spilled two drops.  Are you saying that oil is something we dont need more of?  I dont understand what you are saying at all.    Can you use your Google skills to see if that spill ended life as we know it or had a real impact on any form of life at all?

From what I read, that pipeline has created a warm strip about 50 feet wide that the dear love and mate like rabbits all year long.  I dont hear anyone in that big old cold state asking people to get rid of the pipeline, do you?

[hutch]

I would bet more oil has been spilled at the South Side Motor Speedway up the road from me over the last 40 years than the entire life of that pipeline that spreads over 1/2 that state.


You just get out and toss some kitty litter on it and sweep it up. No mice die or anything and the sun keeps coming up and going down each day.  Crazy stuff, I know.. blows you mind I bet.

[hutch]

I'm not trying to get worked up.    sorry.

Did you know that you have a much higher risk of spill or evnironment impact if you transport oil from across the sea from the middle east than you do from transport from a local source by pipe or truck?   Look at tanker spills vs pipe/trucking spills?  Tanker spills are much worse but some how we are ok with that over shipping local by truck?

Don't doubt it one bit. But that should be a good reason to require a simple technology that can help mitigate the risk - Double hulled carriers. Personally, I would rather use up the other guys stuff first. Not saying that it's a good reason but its a reason.

Do you realy think that an oil tanker does not have a greater impact or risk than a 18 wheeler truck?  How many 1000's of 18 wheeler trucks do you think you can fit in a tanker?  Double hull tankers are hard to make and sell. I worked on one at Newport News Shipbuilding in the early 90's  The Double Eagle it was called.  Costs twice as much to make as a standard tanker and no one wanted to buy them so we made one and never made another.




http://envirowonk.com/content/view/68/1/

Hmmm, I dont see the US on the list?  I wonder why the world has not ended and the sky is still so blue and happy looking with all this oil that has spilled back into the ground where it came from in the first place. 

[Shakey]

And what on earth point are you making shakey?

OK, here goes:

You said this:

"Look at the pipeline we have in Alaska, its never spilt a drop as far as I know."

This prompted me to type in "Alaskan Pipeline Leak" in Google and 0.24 seconds later I had a link to a story from just over two years ago that told us about the leak in the Alaskan Pipeline.

I then realized that you are a "shoot first and ask questions later type guy".

Ok so they spilled two drops.  Are you saying that oil is something we dont need more of?  I dont understand what you are saying at all.    Can you use your Google skills to see if that spill ended life as we know it or had a real impact on any form of life at all?

From what I read, that pipeline has created a warm strip about 50 feet wide that the dear love and mate like rabbits all year long.  I dont hear anyone in that big old cold state asking people to get rid of the pipeline, do you?

Ok so they spilled two drops.

From the link - 270,000 gallons.  The news drove the price up 3% that day.

Are you saying that oil is something we dont need more of?

Never said anything of the sort.  As a matter of fact, I don't really care that much about oil or gas because I have no control over it.  Would I like to see the price come down, well yes of course however pissing and moaning about it and going on about how stupid the people running the country are isn't going to do a damn thing.  If you really cared that much, do something about it.  This is getting you nowhere.

I dont understand what you are saying at all.

This doesn't surprise me.  I am sorry Hutch but I don't think we can carry on these debates any longer because I can't take what you say at face value.  This situation, which I was trying to point out in a witty manner, with you making statements that force me to research leaves me in a position where I am forced to do all the work within the debate only to have you come back and say you can't follow.

Can you use your Google skills to see if that spill ended life as we know it or had a real impact on any form of life at all?

Since you probably think it didn't, I'm going to assume it did.

From what I read, that pipeline has created a warm strip about 50 feet wide that the dear love and mate like rabbits all year long.  I dont hear anyone in that big old cold state asking people to get rid of the pipeline, do you?

I'm sure it has and I am sure they don't.

[mikepmcs]

I would bet more oil has been spilled at the South Side Motor Speedway

Hey, on a side note I used to race there back in 85-86'

[hutch]

I would bet more oil has been spilled at the South Side Motor Speedway

Hey, on a side note I used to race there back in 85-86'

Its a great place to race.   I love that track.

shaky, I am sorry we dont get along.  All i am trying to do is understand why people on a dodge charger web site are not as mad as me about the fact our Government will not let us drill for more oil.  I am trying to do something.  I am trying to get people to see that we need oil and have them push DC to let us drill for our own oil.  I have nothing ill to say about you. I just dont understand your points.   I did not know 200K gals of oil was spilled and I dont care.  They cleaned it up and I dont recall hearing about FEMA having to come in and saving thousands of children from roof tops over it.  We have an EPA that will make sure they clean it up.  Thats great.  We can have oil and still have a clean place to live.

Oil is in everything we use. Its more than Gas.  Way more than gas.  And its impacting the price of food, and that make me real mad because I love food.

[bakerhillpins]

Do you realy think that an oil tanker does not have a greater impact or risk than a 18 wheeler truck?  How many 1000's of 18 wheeler trucks do you think you can fit in a tanker? 

Er... Ya might want to read my response again.  And I quote; "Don't doubt it one bit." -- Oddly enough I was agreeing with you.

Double hull tankers are hard to make and sell. I worked on one at Newport News Shipbuilding in the early 90's  The Double Eagle it was called.  Costs twice as much to make as a standard tanker and no one wanted to buy them so we made one and never made another.

To hard to make? Dude we friggin put robots on MARS! 

Of course it cost 2x as much. It had 2 hulls. People didn't buy it because economics decided the big risk of moving oil by tanker wasn't big enough to warrant the expense. Hence my point.

This doesn't surprise me.  I am sorry Hutch but I don't think we can carry on these debates any longer because I can't take what you say at face value.  This situation, which I was trying to point out in a witty manner, with you making statements that force me to research leaves me in a position where I am forced to do all the work within the debate only to have you come back and say you can't follow.

[hutch]

Do you realy think that an oil tanker does not have a greater impact or risk than a 18 wheeler truck?  How many 1000's of 18 wheeler trucks do you think you can fit in a tanker? 

Er... Ya might want to read my response again.  And I quote; "Don't doubt it one bit." -- Oddly enough I was agreeing with you.

Double hull tankers are hard to make and sell. I worked on one at Newport News Shipbuilding in the early 90's  The Double Eagle it was called.  Costs twice as much to make as a standard tanker and no one wanted to buy them so we made one and never made another.

To hard to make? Dude we friggin put robots on MARS! 

Of course it cost 2x as much. It had 2 hulls. People didn't buy it because economics decided the big risk of moving oil by tanker wasn't big enough to warrant the expense. Hence my point.

This doesn't surprise me.  I am sorry Hutch but I don't think we can carry on these debates any longer because I can't take what you say at face value.  This situation, which I was trying to point out in a witty manner, with you making statements that force me to research leaves me in a position where I am forced to do all the work within the debate only to have you come back and say you can't follow.

again sorry,

Too hard to make = costs too much money to make.  When its hard to construct the cost to build goes up.   Sure we could put a tanker on mars if we wanted to, thats not the point. its the cost of doing it is the issue.

[bakerhillpins]

again sorry,

Too hard to make = costs too much money to make.  When its hard to construct the cost to build goes up.   Sure we could put a tanker on mars if we wanted to, thats not the point. its the cost of doing it is the issue.

I guess I just don't believe that drilling for more solves the problem. It's a finite resource and we are just delaying the inevitable. I don't see any reason not to look for alternatives while we can still do both comfortably. (use oil and look for a replacement that is)

[RallyeMike]

I say abolish the EPA, a drill in every back yard, and nuke the commies so they stop stealing OUR oil. The next generation will figure something out. It's not our problem, dammit!   

[Dave22443]

What about this paragraph from the same article you linked Hutch?

"The Exxon Valdez oil spill was a disaster, but so were the 33 oil spills that were, in fact, worse. Spills have slowed down in recent years, due to advances in logistics and tanker hulls. There are no longer any new single-hulled tankers being built...but there are still plenty that haven't yet been decommissioned."

[hutch]

again sorry,

Too hard to make = costs too much money to make.  When its hard to construct the cost to build goes up.   Sure we could put a tanker on mars if we wanted to, thats not the point. its the cost of doing it is the issue.

I guess I just don't believe that drilling for more solves the problem. It's a finite resource and we are just delaying the inevitable. I don't see any reason not to look for alternatives while we can still do both comfortably. (use oil and look for a replacement that is)

Sorry I miss read your first post. Its late, I have had a few beers and this gas price stuff has me all worked up.  I now tons of people about to go out of business because they cant afford to keep their trucks on the road.

[Troy]

Wow, have to admit I haven't heard that one yet. Wonder why I can get tax deduction on a Hummer but not a hybrid?? Who wrote that legislation?
Supply and demand (speculation is demand) sets price. If I use less by driving a greenie hybrid demand would go down and so would price.

This topic is either bordering on political or has already crossed the line (ie. not allowed on this site). However, instead of locking it, I'm going to throw in a slight correction. Yes, you do get a tax break for buying a hybrid (to offset the higher cost). Look it up.

On a related note, anyone who is blaming the US government for high gas prices may want to spend a few minutes researching what is happening over in Europe.

Troy

[jeryst]

Congress can't do jack squat to cheapen gas in the big picture. 

Even if they found a supergiant field the size of Ghawar off the US coast, it would still take most of a decade for the major effects to hit oil the market.         

There were some hearing in Congress a week or two ago. Five economic experts all testified that the current oil crisis is the result of bad wording in the Enron bill that was passed several years ago. ALL FIVE EXPERTS blamed Congress for the problem, and told them that if they inserted TWO WORDS in the bill, the price of oil would drop 25% OVERNIGHT, and 66% WITHIN A FEW WEEKS. Our stupid greedy Congressmen are to blame for this mess, yet they refuse to do anything about it even after they were told by experts how to fix it. We all need to write our Congressmen and tell them to fix the Enron bill and to curtail unregulated speculation, or they will be voted out of office in the next election. Its the only way.

[RallyeMike]

There were some hearing in Congress a week or two ago. Five economic experts all testified that the current oil crisis is the result of bad wording in the Enron bill that was passed several years ago. ALL FIVE EXPERTS blamed Congress for the problem, and told them that if they inserted TWO WORDS in the bill, the price of oil would drop 25% OVERNIGHT, and 66% WITHIN A FEW WEEKS. Our stupid greedy Congressmen are to blame for this mess, yet they refuse to do anything about it even after they were told by experts how to fix it. We all need to write our Congressmen and tell them to fix the Enron bill and to curtail unregulated speculation, or they will be voted out of office in the next election. Its the only way.

Please point me to the source of these facts  (the guy at the end of the bar doesnt count).

[Mike DC]

 

I STILL say that candidates & congress can't do jack squat to cheapen gas in the big picture.  Well, at least maybe they could hardly do jack squat.


Even if you removed ALL of the current speculation's influence on the price of oil, just the discrepancy between the world's raw supply versus demand is on a path to re-create these prices in about 5-10 years tops.  That time, it will be the REAL market price without any artificial speculation to deflate.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


The enviro-greenies are mostly a red herring as far as I'm concerned.  They're a patsy for the oil industry to blame prices on whenever they (the industry) don't want to do something for their own reasons. 

Except for a few major issues that the whole US population can understand in one sentence (like the Alaska drilling), the green lobby is generally a bunch of sign-waving college kids & angry vegan neo-hippies subsisting on private donations.  Are these people really single-handedly stopping the oil industry from building multi-billion-dollar refineries & platforms that will affect the world's politics for decades to come?  I don't think so.  The greenies are just being blamed for unpopular decisions when it's convenient. 


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


The current (speculation-inflated) prices are giving us a much-needed splash of cold water on our faces.  Before hurricane Katrina started the gas-price snowball rolling in 2005, in the early 2000s I remember just about everybody I knew complained about the atrocity of $2/gallon gas.  (While most of the other places in the world like in Europe were paying $6-7/gallon.)  Honestly I think the USA needed this current $4.50/gallon price spike just to get our collective heads out of our asses about what is "expensive" gasoline and what isn't.


It's causing us to act on the coming supply problem a few years earlier than we otherwise would.   I agree that it's frustrating in the present, but in the longer-term this may actually be the best thing that could have possibly happened to oil prices right now.   (It makes you wonder whether this speculation "accident" is really an accident, doesn't it?)

[hutch]

Wow, have to admit I haven't heard that one yet. Wonder why I can get tax deduction on a Hummer but not a hybrid?? Who wrote that legislation?
Supply and demand (speculation is demand) sets price. If I use less by driving a greenie hybrid demand would go down and so would price.

This topic is either bordering on political or has already crossed the line (ie. not allowed on this site). However, instead of locking it, I'm going to throw in a slight correction. Yes, you do get a tax break for buying a hybrid (to offset the higher cost). Look it up.

On a related note, anyone who is blaming the US government for high gas prices may want to spend a few minutes researching what is happening over in Europe.

Troy

They pay twice what we pay for gas but Europe does not produce its own gas at the same level we do, they depend on mostly on the US, Saudi or Russia to refine gas.  And Europe is way over taxed on oil and gas production and does not produce oil at the level we do.  Thats why they pay twice as much for gas as we do.   They get a better deal on the market for a barrel of oil because their money is stonger than the dollar, but they need more of it per population than we do because we do have more local production.  Plus the EU scews them on over taxing them.