House to look at opening US waters for drilling today.

[Troy]

Yes, I know why their gas costs more - that isn't what I was referring to.

Troy

[hutch]

Yes, I know why their gas costs more - that isn't what I was referring to.

Troy

What were you referring to? I was pointing out that their issues for high gas pricess are related to their government just like our prices are related to our government.

Our government limits the amount of oil we can produce and that impacts the market, their government taxes like crazy plus has to import more by % of cars on the road than we do because they dont have the resources we do and because of the limits placed on them by the Green House laws they enforce for emission caps.

[my73charger]

I agree with Hutch on this.

Troy, for what its worth I didn't intend for this to turn into a squabble and I don't think it has.  Just a healthy debate and so far I don't believe anyone has hurt feelings.  I know this is your board and I respect that and appreciate the free use of it.  You have the right and will exercise what you feel is best to do with it.  I understand that.  I just wanted people to be aware of what our government is talking about.  Of course, I watch the Senate and House debate regularly so maybe I have more interest than others.  I know for my part I am always sending my opinion to Washington DC and regardless of where you stand on the issues I believe that everyone should.  Politicians need to know and be aware that we are watching and listening and they are there to represent us.  This is a topic (not this thread in particular, just the topic in our society as a whole) that will not be going away anytime soon and I believe we need to work on it and talk about it and work on it some more.

[bakerhillpins]

Wow, have to admit I haven't heard that one yet. Wonder why I can get tax deduction on a Hummer but not a hybrid?? Who wrote that legislation?
Supply and demand (speculation is demand) sets price. If I use less by driving a greenie hybrid demand would go down and so would price.

This topic is either bordering on political or has already crossed the line (ie. not allowed on this site). However, instead of locking it, I'm going to throw in a slight correction. Yes, you do get a tax break for buying a hybrid (to offset the higher cost). Look it up.

On a related note, anyone who is blaming the US government for high gas prices may want to spend a few minutes researching what is happening over in Europe.

Troy

You are correct. I overgeneralized my own research. Turns out there are a few that you still can get a tax break on. Apparently the Govt wrote the legislation to only give the break to the first X number of those purchasing the vehicles based upon quarterly sales:

Quarterly Sales
http://www.irs.gov/newsroom/article/0,,id=157632,00.html

Consumers seeking the credit may want to buy early since the full credit is only available for a limited time. Taxpayers may claim the full amount of the allowable credit up to the end of the first calendar quarter after the quarter in which the manufacturer records its sale of the 60,000th hybrid or advance lean burn technology. For the second and third calendar quarters after the quarter in which the 60,000th vehicle is sold, taxpayers may claim 50 percent of the credit. For the fourth and fifth calendar quarters, taxpayers may claim 25 percent of the credit. No credit is allowed after the fifth quarter.

List of rebates: (note all that have expired)
http://www.irs.gov/irs/article/0,,id=176409,00.html

From the Hummer standpoint:
http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/Taxes/P97282.asp (2004 I believe)

Under previous tax legislation, business owners were allowed to select for company use one of several light-truck models weighing more than 6,000 pounds fully loaded and write off most, if not all, of the costs on their tax returns. The law allowed for an immediate deduction of up to $100,000. Sharp-eyed business operators were quick to notice that most of today's sport utility vehicles met the weight limit. Soon, Hummers and Escalades replaced sedans as the business vehicle of choice.

Now the $100,000 write-off applies only to vehicles weighing 14,000 pounds or more. This protects most business-use heavy trucks or vans, such as refrigerated trucks. If you drive something smaller for your business, as soon as President Bush signs this new bill into law you'll be able to expense only $25,000 of the amount it cost.


Upon further Google research I found suggestions that legislation attempted to close this further, but our Stimulus act of last feb may have re opened it. http://www.section179.org/economic_stimulus_act_2008.html
Gawd I hate tax code...

Regardless, businesses could get 25k to 100k tax break on a Hummer or individuals up to 5k on a hybrid?

[Troy]

Hutch:
Oil/gas is a worldwide market. The prices affect everyone and some countries are hit harder than others. The idea that our Congress or President can make a decision that will only benefit/affect our country is flawed (and a bit selfish to boot). Not to mention that anything the government does will take years to have any impact. Perhaps, if we used less our prices would go down (much sooner as well)?

my73charger:
People tend to get overzealous when it comes to politics and, since the last election, we've had a rule about "no political topics". This includes hijacking an otherwise innocent thread into a political discussion. It causes resentment and hard feelings between members - usually over subjects that have absolutely nothing to do with cars. The only reason I haven't locked this one is because it is relevant to guys on a car site. Plus, it has remained fairly civil - which is highly unusual when it comes to politics around here.

bakerhillpins:
I was just pointing out a correction but here's another.
1. The credit for the hybrid applies to everyone whereas the industrial vehicle deduction applies only to businesses - presumably for expensive delivery trucks. "The vehicle must be used for business, not personal, travel. The deduction is claimed as a Section 179 expense, meaning you must be in business, filing a Schedule C or corporate tax return, to claim it."
2. For Hybrids, it is a "tax credit" - meaning the amount comes directly off the tax you owe. In the case of the Hummer, it is a deduction/expense which means the amount comes off your net income and not the actual taxes you owe.

Troy

[hutch]

Hutch:
Oil/gas is a worldwide market. The prices affect everyone and some countries are hit harder than others. The idea that our Congress or President can make a decision that will only benefit/affect our country is flawed (and a bit selfish to boot). Not to mention that anything the government does will take years to have any impact. Perhaps, if we used less our prices would go down (much sooner as well)?


Troy

I understand your point now.  I am just saying that our government as well as some other governments in the western world do limit production of oil and that is what is impacting the global market because demand is not going down.  If the US said it would commit to increase production by (X)millions of barrels per day, that would have a positive impact on the futures market.  As would it if other nations would commit to "allow" oil companies to increase production. Once that oil is bought and paid for then gas prices go up even more when governments attach taxes to the purchase and transport of that gas.

The US Government makes about 26 to 30 cents per gallon sold where big oil makes about 3 to 6 cents per gallon sold.

I would love to run my cars off some other form of power if I could, but thats not going to happen.  We still need gas and oil and just saying we will cut back is not going to do it.  My kids are all going to need cars in the next 5 years.  And then when they get married , their kids will want cars when they grow up. And on and on. 

10 years to wait for new oil is what I hear, my point is its looking like 20 before we find something that will replace oil, so why not increase our oil production while we work on that soultion.

I am out of this thread.  I dont want people to hate me. I just want my gas price to go down and my government to get out of our pockets.

[my73charger]

10 years to wait for new oil is what I hear, my point is its looking like 20 before we find something that will replace oil, so why not increase our oil production while we work on that soultion.

My thoughts exactly.

[Mike DC]

           

But that's just it -- the assumption that this is a "temporary" problem and we're gonna invent our way of it now.   

We're extremely unlikely to have a replacement in 20 years, heavy research or not. 



The energy contained in crude oil per unit of mass  .  .  .  it's astronomical in the big picture.  We don't have to work for it at all.  The entire cost of making gasoline is basically cleaning the worst of the inpurities out of the oil and then transporting it.  We're getting the raw power for free. 


We haven't found a better way to run our vehicles since the 1800s because we found the best possible thing the first time.  Even if science could find another way to store that much power in a gallon of anything (which wouldn't be easy), the factories would still have to GENERATE EVERY SINGLE WATT OF THAT POWER by some other method in the first place.   

[jeryst]

There were some hearing in Congress a week or two ago. Five economic experts all testified that the current oil crisis is the result of bad wording in the Enron bill that was passed several years ago. ALL FIVE EXPERTS blamed Congress for the problem, and told them that if they inserted TWO WORDS in the bill, the price of oil would drop 25% OVERNIGHT, and 66% WITHIN A FEW WEEKS. Our stupid greedy Congressmen are to blame for this mess, yet they refuse to do anything about it even after they were told by experts how to fix it. We all need to write our Congressmen and tell them to fix the Enron bill and to curtail unregulated speculation, or they will be voted out of office in the next election. Its the only way.

Please point me to the source of these facts  (the guy at the end of the bar doesnt count).

All I can tell you is that I watched it on CSPAN one night. I dont know if there are archives that are available, but Warren Buffet was there, so if it is available, it should be easy to find.

[my73charger]

           

But that's just it -- the assumption that this is a "temporary" problem and we're gonna invent our way of it now.   

We're extremely unlikely to have a replacement in 20 years, heavy research or not. 



The energy contained in crude oil per unit of mass  .  .  .  it's astronomical in the big picture.  We don't have to work for it at all.  The entire cost of making gasoline is basically cleaning the worst of the inpurities out of the oil and then transporting it.  We're getting the raw power for free. 


We haven't found a better way to run our vehicles since the 1800s because we found the best possible thing the first time.  Even if science could find another way to store that much power in a gallon of anything (which wouldn't be easy), the factories would still have to GENERATE EVERY SINGLE WATT OF THAT POWER by some other method in the first place.   

I totally agree.  And the fact that our economy is totally dependent in every possible way on oil to me means is is irresponsible and even selfish to not go after this resource at home where we know it is at.

[mikepmcs]

I am out of this thread.  I don't want people to hate me. I just want my gas price to go down and my government to get out of our pockets.

Why would anyone hate you?? You are speaking your peace and that is what it's all about.  Everyone has different views and they are all valid(in their own right)
I'm retired military so you know where I side(and I might lean towards yours, whatever) but hey I respect everyone's opinion no matter what, and I always learn something in the process(it's what I fought for for over 20 years and what makes this country great)...and absolutely no offense to any other Country either, cause they are great as well(I've been to almost all of them and always got along...my North American brothers and sisters are the best of em' all by the way, man what a great bunch!!!) Actually most everyone is just like us,(as in US Citizens to categorize)human and everyone wants to get along or get by without issue......except the french  J/K out loud!(that was really a joke BTW)
If you see something you don't like..do the research and refute the fact in a civilized manner(not pointing directly at you hutch..just everyone in general)
Move forward and we are all better for it.

One last thing....Al Gore started the internet and "It's my way or the highway"
I may not be right all the time but i've never been wrong!  Truer words have never been spoken.



v/r
Mike

[bakerhillpins]

bakerhillpins:
I was just pointing out a correction but here's another.
1. The credit for the hybrid applies to everyone whereas the industrial vehicle deduction applies only to businesses - presumably for expensive delivery trucks. "The vehicle must be used for business, not personal, travel. The deduction is claimed as a Section 179 expense, meaning you must be in business, filing a Schedule C or corporate tax return, to claim it."
2. For Hybrids, it is a "tax credit" - meaning the amount comes directly off the tax you owe. In the case of the Hummer, it is a deduction/expense which means the amount comes off your net income and not the actual taxes you owe.

Troy

We can play the correction game all day. That's why I provided the links, I wasn't trying to obscure anything. Guess I need to get a speech writer eh?   

Yea, I had that in the last line.

Regardless, businesses could get 25k to 100k tax break on a Hummer or individuals up to 5k on a hybrid?

Yea, fine so I left out the word credit. It was by accident. I'm sure I will make another... feel free to edit the post directly this time.   :

Business expense or not you can't tell me all those guys driving around in their "work" pickup trucks are working all day Saturday, Sunday, and weeknights. I see it all the time. Its a loophole plain and simple that is always exploited by business owners (not all of them) to get a vehicle that they can use for personal reasons too. Its essentially an un-provable evasion of taxes. You can bet they are deducting the fuel bills on that thing too.

5k was also an overstatement, 3k is the largest credit you can still receive.

[Troy]

Ok, my point was that you made it sound like you were comparing the $5k with the $100k when in reality they are calculated differently. The $100k (now $25k) is a "deduction" which takes place before taxes are calculated but the $5k (or $1k or $3k) "credit" applies directly to the tax itself. I didn't feel like doing all the math but wanted to make sure the comparison was clear. At 20% tax rate that $25k nets a $5k difference in the final tax bill. If you're going to use the $100k deduction from a few years ago then it's fair to compare it with the hybrid credit from the same time. In any case, yes, there is a tax incentive to buying a hybrid. That one is NOT a loophole.

Next someone can complain about the unfair advantage offered to Toyota and Honda since they make more hybrids than everyone else.

As for where and what we drill, I have opinions but I'm reasonably sure oil companies and the government don't really care about them.

Troy

[bakerhillpins]

Troy

Thats cool.  Its all just a discussion. Best to get the correct info out there even if I look like an idiot in the process. 

I just went a bit overboard in that 2nd post trying to get the correct info out there since I shouldn't have made the generalization in the first place.

I am going back to the Angrier thread to look for pics now. 

Bryan

[Troy]

I keep forgetting my smileys.

In my job I've learned (software development) that people will not change until it becomes too painful to continue down the path they are on. Once the pain is too much to endure it is amazing how much energy and resources they can put into finding another path and how quickly they can change direction. They will fight it kicking and screaming but once they are determined to follow a new path it seems perfectly logical. I really do hope that this (fuel costs) is a catalyst for new invention and different approaches to long-standing problems. It is a shame that people have ignored the warning signs and waited until late in the game when the pain is starting to get intense before realizing what sort of situation they are in. But, as I have found, that's pretty typical. Perhaps we'll even see an increase in personal responsibility (helped along by the housing/lending crisis)?

I love my cars and would like to still buy reasonably priced gasoline for them many years from now. I'd love to see us get rid of (or at least severely lessen) our dependence on oil (foreign and domestic) - not find ways to get more just to feed our addiction. If it means I have to ride a Kryptonite powered tricycle with air filled bearings to work every day then so be it. There are still parts of the world without mechanical transportation, electricity, medicine, food, or a way to communicate remotely so our "problems" sometimes seem a bit blown out of proportion. I mean really, what do people complain about when the combined wealth of the entire village consists of 8 chickens, 3 goats, a cow, and a prime location within a mile of the deep part in the stream? Lack of eligible women? Some things never change.

Troy

[jeryst]

There were some hearing in Congress a week or two ago. Five economic experts all testified that the current oil crisis is the result of bad wording in the Enron bill that was passed several years ago. ALL FIVE EXPERTS blamed Congress for the problem, and told them that if they inserted TWO WORDS in the bill, the price of oil would drop 25% OVERNIGHT, and 66% WITHIN A FEW WEEKS. Our stupid greedy Congressmen are to blame for this mess, yet they refuse to do anything about it even after they were told by experts how to fix it. We all need to write our Congressmen and tell them to fix the Enron bill and to curtail unregulated speculation, or they will be voted out of office in the next election. Its the only way.

Please point me to the source of these facts  (the guy at the end of the bar doesnt count).

Here is the link to the correct CSPAN archives page

http://www.c-span.org/VideoArchives.asp?CatCodePairs=,&ArchiveDays=100&Page=15

The topic is about halfway down titled: "Senate Commerce Cmte. Hearing on Energy Market Manipulation"

Also, I have a correction. It wasnt Warren Buffet, it was George Soros. I was thinking about something else with Buffet. I think that anyone that watches this will get really pi55ed off.

[mikepmcs]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_Buffett

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Soros



v/r
Mike

[Mike DC]

 
If you guys really think these higher gas prices are so morally wrong for the future of America, then chew on this:



There has been a lot of complaint that most of America hasn't been called upon to sacrifice for the War or Terror except those in the armed services and their families.  And we all know plain-as-day that we need to reduce our long-term dependency on foreign oil as part of that war.   

Well, how much progress have we made on that front since September of 2001?




These higher prices will actually change our energy behavior.  Nothing else will.  I don't enjoy losing money any more than the next guy, but this situation is not bad for us in the long run.
 
 

[Ghoste]

So purely for the sake of continuing the debate, let me throw this out there.  Do any of us who question the energy usage of North Americans and the need for large gas guzzling trucks, SUV's, and Hummers feel the same standards shuld apply to musclecars?  Should we have the right to drive 500 cubic inch stroked out toys or even any old car in general with their poorer economy and emissions?  Yes, it flies in the face of the rights and freedoms of our culture both real and imagined but what of the greater good?

[RallyeMike]

Here is the link to the correct CSPAN archives page

http://www.c-span.org/VideoArchives.asp?CatCodePairs=,&ArchiveDays=100&Page=15

The topic is about halfway down titled: "Senate Commerce Cmte. Hearing on Energy Market Manipulation"

Also, I have a correction. It wasnt Warren Buffet, it was George Soros. I was thinking about something else with Buffet. I think that anyone that watches this will get really pi55ed off.

Thanks, I'll check it out. 

[Mike DC]

 
Ghoste, I think the "greater good" was being served just fine when they let the factories build the biggest motor they felt like, and just let the (real) price of gas control how much we burned. 



Asking me? 

I think they oughtta tax the price of gas up as high as they need to (even if it's $10/gallon) and just let us buy whatever the hell we want at the dealership even if it's going back to 18-guage body panels and 500-inch carb'd motors.  It would cost more at the pump but it would reduce some of this "life tax" that is a $30K automobile for daily transportation.  That's not a free cost on society either, and it would be decreased if the CAFE mileage monkey was off Detriot's back.

 

[hutch]

 
Ghoste, I think the "greater good" was being served just fine when they let the factories build the biggest motor they felt like, and just let the (real) price of gas control how much we burned. 



Asking me? 

I think they oughtta tax the price of gas up as high as they need to (even if it's $10/gallon) and just let us buy whatever the hell we want at the dealership even if it's going back to 18-guage body panels and 500-inch carb'd motors.  It would cost more at the pump but it would reduce some of this "life tax" that is a $30K automobile for daily transportation.  That's not a free cost on society either, and it would be decreased if the CAFE mileage monkey was off Detriot's back.

 

high tax and high gas price is whats killing the little guy right now.  millions of joe 6packs working to put food on the table as a self employeed painters, drive way pavers, pressure washers, landscapers ect....  they cant pass on any of that tax or fuel costs onto a consumer. so its going to dump millions of people on the job market and cause lots of pain across the board for the rest of our nation.

We need cheap fuel and low tax on power.  That is what drives our econ.  Low costs of service so prices are set to a level more people can comsume.  If we let fuel costs get crushed like that, we are going to see soup lines like never before.

Oil is much more than gas.  its in everything we buy people.  rubber, plastics, cloths, paint, on and on. 

[Dave22443]

 

[Mike DC]

 
I hear you.  And I don't disagree with what you point out. 



But you're still basically operating with the assumption that we have the OPTION of cheap power.  As if it's only a CHOICE whether or not we pay more for it. 

From what I see of the world, the USA can't get the kind of cheap power we want these days.  Either we pay for it at the pump, or we pay for it pretty much every other way the costs can possibly be diverted to. 

 
 

[hutch]

well,,,, my point is we can work to lower the price of oil on the market if we can get the US government let Oil companies increase supply, have the federal reserve work for a stronger dollar so our dollar buys more oil for the money on the international market.

Oil is still cheap, when 9/11 hit it was less than 20bucks a barrel  now its going twards 140 bucks a barrel and yet oil companies are finding more and more oil underground but cant get the rights to drill for it because our government will not let them.

China is drilling 90 miles off the Fla coast right now.  Sucking "our" oil out of the ground.  But we our nation is run by people that want us to fail and not let us keep growth moving forward.