I give up, 440's just run HOT

[superduperbee]

If you live in an area where the new oxygenated gas is being sold, you may need to jet it richer.

[firefighter3931]

It's possible that the fuel pump is getting heat soaked....but that could simply be a byproduct of the overheating isssue. I'm still leaning towards the waterpump not creating enough circulation at low engine speed. 

Automatic transmissions also create a lot of heat in gear, at idle. Have you tried testing it with the engine idleing and the transmission in neutral or park ? That would be an interesting comparison and might help isolate the problem. 



Ron

[69chargeryeehaa]

It's possible that the fuel pump is getting heat soaked....but that could simply be a byproduct of the overheating isssue. I'm still leaning towards the waterpump not creating enough circulation at low engine speed. 

Automatic transmissions also create a lot of heat in gear, at idle. Have you tried testing it with the engine idleing and the transmission in neutral or park ? That would be an interesting comparison and might help isolate the problem. 



Ron

well at light throttle cruise i get a little surge i attributed to the warmer weather, but now it's making cents to me that maybe the pump is on the way out? or pumping just barley at idle?  Becuase when you first hit a light it's fine, then it starts getting hotter, and running worse at the same time....?   It very slowly climbs in neutral or park, if at all, it seems in gear makes a difference mainly by reducing rpm's? i've set it to 700 rpm in gear....?  I'm really thinking fuel pump, everything is new/good, insulating gasket under carb, cooling system all stock and NEW, it's the only thing i have'nt changed, timing/mixture is perfect, the problem is recently reared it's head, since the temperature went up outside it's getting worse and worse.  Plus i'm getting very high underhood temps that i never had before, the exhaust manifolds seem to be getting really really hot = LEAN? but jetting has'nt changed for years, all of a sudden it can't be bad???  I'll check the floats, and jets (maybe one is plugged?) at this point i'm really: 

[firefighter3931]

It might be time to get your car on a chassis dyno with a wideband 02 sensor to see what the fuel curve looks like. 



Ron

[Corellian Corvette]

This is like an episode of CSI.

I have another hypothesis - and that is that your Coil may be going bad. You may be looking for symptoms of the wrong problem.

Sounds strange I know - but you mentioned something in one of your posts about your coil getting REALLY hot. I don't care how much heat soak is going on under your hood, but having your coil mounted off the intake and on the inside fender like that, I don't think your coil should be getting that hot.

The only time I've experienced a SUPER hot coil was when I was feeding it too much power and killing it.  It's possible that it's failing, and the heat is because of excessive resistance in the coil, or too much power, and that's why your engine is dying. So it would seem like it's because your engine is getting hot, when in fact it's your ignition that is going bad. That would exhibit may of the same symptoms.

Check all your wiring in that area and make sure you don't have a frayed wire somewhere that might be grounding out, or if your wiring is old that you have excessive resistance in the wires.

Also, make sure you have the right coil to be accepting a full 12v if that's what you're doing. Coils like the Blaster II still require a resistance wire on the primary side and can't take a full feed.  You'll need something like the Pertronix Blaster II coil with 0.6 ohm resistance to feed 12v directly.

Just a thought!

[Corellian Corvette]

I don't completely know what I'm talking about, but this seems to work pretty good for me.      I'd try draining your entire system and replace with 100% water and a bottle of WW or something like it.  I think they usually have a rust inhibitor in them as well.  WW + antifreeze will have almost no effect, IIRC.  We have almost the same build and my temp needle does climb some after extended idling on hot days, but never causes drivability problems.  I've also got spacers between the carb and iron intake.  I added the vapor separator / fuel filter last year and that eliminated any hard cranking when hot too.  Good luck.   
-john

John - one quick piece of advice, which is free, so you get what you pay for

You should never run 100% water on a street car. There is no debate that pure water cools better, but it's really, really bad over the long haul on a street motor. I know some guys run pure water at the track, but 100% water will make your cooling passages look like the bottom of the ocean!

"Antifreeze" does more than keep the water from freezing. The chemicals in the coolant help prevent corrosion from happening inside your water passages, it lubricates things like your water pump, and it raises the boiling point of the water (as does the pressure in the system) to help keep the engine from overheating. Yes, the heat transfer properties of pure water are better, but water is an amazing electrical conductor, and on the whole, straight water will wreak havoc if run for prolonged periods. Even something like a 60/40 ratio of Water/Coolant is overall better for your engine!

Note - if you have ANY aluminum parts on your engine, you HAVE to run some sort of coolant. Otherwise, the electrolosis created by the water and the iron will literally eat through any aluminum parts!

[440fan]

Sounds like your timing is off. Get it hooked up to a dino and have it checked.

[69chargeryeehaa]

Sounds like your timing is off. Get it hooked up to a dino and have it checked.

TIMING IS PERFECT>>>> 15 INITIAL, 35 TOTAL ALL IN BY 2000

[mikepmcs]

All in by 2000.  Isn't that a little quick to come in, like the advance needs to be adjusted or run a stiffer spring in the dizzy or something?  Probably doesn't have anything to do with your heat issue but that just seems too quick.

v/r
Mike

[69chargeryeehaa]

All in by 2000.  Isn't that a little quick to come in, like the advance needs to be adjusted or run a stiffer spring in the dizzy or something?  Probably doesn't have anything to do with your heat issue but that just seems too quick.

v/r
Mike

actually it's all in by about 2200, 2300rpms, which is perfect for a BB with 3.23 gears and a 28" tall rear tire.....but the initial at idle is still 15deg so that could'nt be an issue.  It's a stock mp ele ign kit, i actually like the early mech adv...?

[0X01B8]

John - one quick piece of advice, which is free, so you get what you pay for

You should never run 100% water on a street car. There is no debate that pure water cools better, but it's really, really bad over the long haul on a street motor. I know some guys run pure water at the track, but 100% water will make your cooling passages look like the bottom of the ocean!

"Antifreeze" does more than keep the water from freezing. The chemicals in the coolant help prevent corrosion from happening inside your water passages, it lubricates things like your water pump, and it raises the boiling point of the water (as does the pressure in the system) to help keep the engine from overheating. Yes, the heat transfer properties of pure water are better, but water is an amazing electrical conductor, and on the whole, straight water will wreak havoc if run for prolonged periods. Even something like a 60/40 ratio of Water/Coolant is overall better for your engine!

Note - if you have ANY aluminum parts on your engine, you HAVE to run some sort of coolant. Otherwise, the electrolosis created by the water and the iron will literally eat through any aluminum parts!

I appreciate the reply, thanks.  I actually don't run 100% water, but I was suggesting he try it, plus the additive, and see what happens.  Guess I shoulda been more clear on that.  I don't know what the mix is that I have, but I put some in the freezer to see what it was good for, and it started freezing around 20 or so.  (love those infrared thermometers, BTW)

[69chargeryeehaa]

here's an update, i got the milodon high flow pump, new carter fuel pump, new heater hoses (going to bring them up to the fender as they are too close to the exhaust manifolds), coolant, going to clean/inspect carb for plugged jet, and i'm putting the electric fan back on since that wasn't the problem, plus at the last mopar show when i had no heat issues i was just about the only car that could idle for 1hr without overheating with the electric fan on!!!!  now i can't just drive!!!!  what a turn of events/   

So hopefully after changing the fuel pump, water pump, flush/fill coolant, clean carb, putting electric fan back on, it better be fixed or else...   Right now i don't care what fixes is i just want it to run cool, i had it running cool once.....

I'm really thinking the fuel pump is the issues, that would explain my lean surging at cruise, running hot at idle, and the running rough/dieing at idle.....that's the only logical explanation for all my symptoms.....for now.....

[Challenger340]

Just my opinion,
I like 35 total timing, but with 3.23 and 28" tires, I prefer to see "all in" occuring closer to around 2800.
Unless,
It's really struggling to see 8.5:1 Compression, then it'd like the big lead ?

Opinions ?

[69chargeryeehaa]

Just my opinion,
I like 35 total timing, but with 3.23 and 28" tires, I prefer to see "all in" occuring closer to around 2800.
Unless,
It's really struggling to see 8.5:1 Compression, then it'd like the big lead ?

Opinions ?

well you may be right, who knows, but my problem is not at speed, just at idle in gear, where it's timed at 15 initial, so that's not my problem.

[69chargeryeehaa]

Well here's where i'm at now: the car has 17" of vaccum at idle hot in gear (650-700rpm). So i could possibly rule out the intake as leaking. I did re-torque it, it was not loose at all, nice and tight.

I changed the fuel pump, filter, and i'm going to completely take the carb apart and clean it (hopefully i'll find something). If all that checks out ok, i'm going to then concentrate on iginition. Maybe something is getting hot/failing like the ecu, coil, ballast resistor, pick-up. i'll change one part at a time to see if it gets fixed.

If that does'nt work, I TOTALLY GIVE UP!!! 

What i have just done:
-flush/drain cooling system (old coolant by the way was like NEW/very clear/clean).
-new rad cap.
-high flow stat 180.
-milodon high flow water pump.
-new heater hoses (were too close to exhaust manifolds).
-new carter fuel pump and new fuel filter.

When i start it, i'll re-adjust the idle mixture with a vac guage, check timing, and cross my fingers.

At this point i'd be happy if the car would run 190ish and NOT DIE on me. If it'll hold temp at under 200 when it's hot and not die i'd be happy as a pig in $hit!!!!.

Also today is stupid hot in Toronto, so tonite will be a good test, wish me luck.

[Just 6T9 CHGR]

Also for shits & giggles, you checked the fuel pump pushrod length no?   I returned 2 new Carter Hemi pumps to Summit before I realized the pushrod ground down 3/4" smaller on the cam side.  Turns out a while back Mopar had a bad run of these pushrods & they weren't hardened properly.

Just a thought

[RD]

now..i dont mean to jest, but are you sure your gauge is right?

[resq302]

Also for shits & giggles, you checked the fuel pump pushrod length no?   I returned 2 new Carter Hemi pumps to Summit before I realized the pushrod ground down 3/4" smaller on the cam side.  Turns out a while back Mopar had a bad run of these pushrods & they weren't hardened properly.

Just a thought

  I might have to check that out also.  That might be the problem with my lean issue when I go from idle to wide open throttle or cruising to WOT.   

  Good info Chris!

[Rob R]

I'd try fattening it up and see if that has any effect...chances are there's a piston that's a couple of tenths too tight...seen it more times than I can count

I still stand by with my first suggestion...

something mechanical is heating a cyl or two for that much heat

[69chargeryeehaa]

well, i have good news.....

I've done everything i listed in my last post, and the car ran at 175-180 with the new pump, ect....but still ran a little crappy after about an hour of driving....so i changed the coil, and the problem disappeared completely.  By the way, this weekend in toronto, it's been extremely hot out, 39*deg C, and very humid.  perfect testing grounds.  I can see a huge difference in water flow in the rad at idle, where before coolant would just barley move past the top, now at idle it's a very nice stream of coolant.  Huge difference in cooling, the car runs great now, last night at a cruise night i was idling for 15mins in this heat, the car did get to 190, but not higher, the electric fan really makes a big difference at idle in gear stopped, it really keeps things under control.  Funny, this is the 3rd coil i've tested, 2 new ones, 1 old one that was a known good one, they all failed, and the one that works perfectly is the big old accell yellow plastic one, that was the coil on the car when i bought it and drove it from Minnesota to Toronto in retarded hot conditions, and the car never went over 200-205 in insane heat.   I also changed the ballast resistor, hot i was getting 8-9 volts at the coil, but changed it for piece of mind.   The upgrades I've done to the cooling system (high flow stat, and water pump) really made a big difference.  I can't believe i have 3 crappy coils....I can officially say the car is ok now.....thank GOD>..

[mikepmcs]

 

[RECHRGD]

well, i have good news.....

I've done everything i listed in my last post, and the car ran at 175-180 with the new pump, ect....but still ran a little crappy after about an hour of driving....so i changed the coil, and the problem disappeared completely. By the way, this weekend in toronto, it's been extremely hot out, 39*deg C, and very humid. perfect testing grounds. I can see a huge difference in water flow in the rad at idle, where before coolant would just barley move past the top, now at idle it's a very nice stream of coolant. Huge difference in cooling, the car runs great now, last night at a cruise night i was idling for 15mins in this heat, the car did get to 190, but not higher, the electric fan really makes a big difference at idle in gear stopped, it really keeps things under control. Funny, this is the 3rd coil i've tested, 2 new ones, 1 old one that was a known good one, they all failed, and the one that works perfectly is the big old accell yellow plastic one, that was the coil on the car when i bought it and drove it from Minnesota to Toronto in retarded hot conditions, and the car never went over 200-205 in insane heat. I also changed the ballast resistor, hot i was getting 8-9 volts at the coil, but changed it for piece of mind. The upgrades I've done to the cooling system (high flow stat, and water pump) really made a big difference. I can't believe i have 3 crappy coils....I can officially say the car is ok now.....thank GOD>..

Glad it's OK now.  As mentioned earlier, the combination of the high flow pump/stat along with the electric fan fixed it for me also.  Funny about the coil.  I had one of the old yellow accell ones that never gave me any problems.  I switched to the chrome one and it failed in one season's time.  I've gone back to the yellow one and have had no problems.  Bob

[69chargeryeehaa]

i bought a stock coil from napa, same problem, then like you i bought the accell chrome superstock coil, same problem, then my old coil off some other car which was good, same problem, that ugly huge accell yellow coil with the giant plastic housing, fixed.   

[RD]

i bought a stock coil from napa, same problem, then like you i bought the accell chrome superstock coil, same problem, then my old coil off some other car which was good, same problem, that ugly huge accell yellow coil with the giant plastic housing, fixed.

where did you mount the napa and accel chrome coils in relation to where the yellow plastic one is mounted?

[69chargeryeehaa]

i bought a stock coil from napa, same problem, then like you i bought the accell chrome superstock coil, same problem, then my old coil off some other car which was good, same problem, that ugly huge accell yellow coil with the giant plastic housing, fixed.

where did you mount the napa and accel chrome coils in relation to where the yellow plastic one is mounted?

exact same spot, just under where the stock washerbottle would be, quite a cool spot