I give up, 440's just run HOT

[69chargeryeehaa]

ok, here's the deal, 69 charger r/t, 440/727/8.75 with 3.23. Stock 440 with eddy CH4B intake, eddy 1411 750 afb. New stock rad, shroud, stock fan, 180*deg stat, electric fan on front (pusher), insulating carb gasket/spacer. That's what I'm working with.

It seems like whenever it gets warmer, the car just starts to run hot only when sitting at a light, drive thru, ect....
Timing is perfect, 15*deg initial, 35 total, 14 vac. Plugs look perfect, the car runs perfect. Driving temp is always 185*deg, but when you sit at a light, it creeps up to 190, sitting in a drive thru last night and it went to 200 and then started running like crap. I just don't get why this thing runs hot, my old charger, identical setup (intake, timing, carb, ect...) did the EXACT same thing. Coolant is clean, recently changed, hoses are not collapsing, thermostat confirmed on the stove, engine has perfect compression, no oil use, <10000mi on rebuild, no crud in the motor/rad it's all NEW.

Someone please tell me a solution, this is driving me nuts I've tried everything to solve this nothing works. The electric fan just prolongs the temp creep up, but it still gets to 195+ and then starts running like crap. I've changed the:coil, ecu (chrome), plugs, wires, dist pickup, ect....EXACT SAME THING. It's not a ignition issues, it seems to be a carb issue when it runs bad when getting hot, but if it didn't run hot it would run perfect..IDEAS?? or is this just the way it is?

[Charger-Bodie]

Have you tried "Water Wetter"? I had a 440 that acted like that and I put some of that in there and it helped alot.

[BMOTOXSTAR]

My 400 BB in my 73' Charger does the same thing. 
Everyting is in great working order but .....
The 318 in the SatellRunner never over heats.

[BrianShaughnessy]

22" core or a 26" core rad?

Your post says new stock rad and stock shroud.   440 auto R/T's typically came with 22" core.     

[69chargeryeehaa]

Have you tried "Water Wetter"? I had a 440 that acted like that and I put some of that in there and it helped alot.

yes, did nothing

[69chargeryeehaa]

22" core or a 26" core rad?

Your post says new stock rad and stock shroud.   440 auto R/T's typically came with 22" core.     

it's the larger one of the 2.

[mikepmcs]

Have you tried "Water Wetter"? I had a 440 that acted like that and I put some of that in there and it helped alot.

+1

they have some other things as well that say they will make the car run 20* cooler.

v/r
Mike

[Charger-Bodie]

Do you have A/C?

[69chargeryeehaa]

Do you have A/C?

no

[Charger-Bodie]

2 or 3 row radiator?  doe you also have a stock fan? to go with the elec. pusher?

[RECHRGD]

When I first got my car on the road it would overheat in traffic.  The first thing I tried was a two core aluminum radiator.  It helped but did not cure the problem.  Then I changed from a flex fan to a viscous type fan and there was no improvement.  The next attempt was to install an electric pusher fan that is thermostatically controlled.  That helped some more, but on a hot day if stuck in traffic, the temperature would still creep up to uncomfortable areas.  The last thing that finally seemed to cure it was installing a Milodon aluminum high flow waterpump and t-stat.  Now the only time the electric fan kicks on (set at 185) is on a very hot day if stuck in traffic and it will cool the engine down to the point where it will shut off.  In other words the fan will cycle on and off just like a modern car.  Bob

[Back N Black]

I had a Chevy 350, that did the same. i replaced everything that you mentioned and still running hot. The last item that i changed was the water pump, cured the problem.  ??

[Blown70]

If not a show car I would go with an aluminum radiator and A GOOD one, not the cheapest you could find.  Also, consider a water pump that may not be up to par?  I have had problem changed 3 different t-stats and nothing. 

If not then I thin RECHARGD too gave you some good pointers.....

Tom

[Rob R]

I'd try fattening it up and see if that has any effect...chances are there's a piston that's a couple of tenths too tight...seen it more times than I can count

[69chargeryeehaa]

i did try fattening it up, the only thing it did was make my eyes burn!!!

I'm going to remove the pusher fan, install the rubber seal from hood to rad support, try that.  Next step is flush and fill with 160 stat, if that does'nt work water pump.

thanks

[Just 6T9 CHGR]

200º is not THAT hot IMHO.......215-220 IS hot
Just as long as it cools back down.... that is key

I also assume you are using a quality aftermarket gauge to measure this temp & not the stock inaccurate dash gauge?

[69chargeryeehaa]

200º is not THAT hot IMHO.......215-220 IS hot
Just as long as it cools back down.... that is key

I also assume you are using a quality aftermarket gauge to measure this temp & not the stock inaccurate dash gauge?

yes, factory gauge and mechanical aftermarket.

[RD]

200 isnt hot, really, especially sitting in traffic with no air movement over your engine to assist in cooling.  hell, when the cars came out that is what happened all the time.  I remember in '76 or thereabouts my 73 charger overheating in traffic (San Diego, CA).  They are big engines and if sitting around other heat producing vehicles on a hot day with the sun shining... its expected.

now.. to fix the problem.. yeah, do the above hehe

[440fan]

i did try fattening it up, the only thing it did was make my eyes burn!!!

I'm going to remove the pusher fan, install the rubber seal from hood to rad support, try that.  Next step is flush and fill with 160 stat, if that does'nt work water pump.

thanks

I have a survivor 69 Dodge Coronet R/T with a 440 magnum engine and 4 speed and a 160 degree stat is going to do nothing to cool it down. I installed a Mr Gasket Hi Flow 180 degree stat and flushed and refilled with coolant and made sure that timing was right on. Also, make sure that you are not running lean because THAT  can really heat up the engine. These engines do run on the hot side and like the carb on the rich side of the setting...

[resq302]

One thing I found by mistake was when my water pump seal started leaking, I found out that I was supposed to have an 8 blade impeller vs. the 6 blade that was installed when the engine was rebuilt.  Turns out the 8 blade impeller is for NON-a/c cars and the A/C cars got the 6 blade, probably cause of the larger rad design.

Also, do you have any coolant leaks?  Might be worth renting a pressure tester and checking for leaks.

Are you moving the coolant through the rad too fast which is not causing the rad to absorb the heat like it should?  I have heard of someone having a similar problem because the coolant was cycling through too fast due to a high volume pump.

How old is the rebuild on the engine?  Or core of the rad?  Maybe scale or rust build up has clogged a passage somewhere.  Also, the studs fo the exhaust manifolds were notorious for leaking.

Do you still have the coiled wire inside the lower rad hose to prevent it from collapsing closed and causing an overheating issue that way?

Just things to check.

[superduperbee]

I've always changed to a 160 degree thermostat in summer, and put the 180 back in for winter. Second thing is the waterpump, I believe Edelbrock makes a high volume waterpump where the rear of the impeller is covered with a disc instead of open. This design makes the coolant flow with less turbulence, thus moving it quicker. Make sure your lower radiator hose has the spring in it or it will collapse and cut the flow. Sounds like you have a big enough radiator and fan/shroud. Like others said,  200 is not all that hot. If you have a real overheating problem it would boil. One last thing, I have rebuilt engines and found them to be packed solid with rust behind the freeze plugs.  Think about giving it a good flush if you have a lot of miles. a small obstruction in any of the passages can give you fits.

[Corellian Corvette]

Your car is running great, and in my opinion you're going to chase a problem you won't be able to solve.

If you're running 185deg with a 180deg thermostat while driving that's exactly how it should be. Your cooling system is working properly.

A cooler thermostat isn't going to help the problem you have and may make it worse. All a 160deg thermostat will do is open earlier, and not allow the proper heat transfer as the water will just flow around the engine. It needs time in the radiator core to properly cool the water before going back into the engine.

These cars get warm - if you're getting up to 200 deg and that's it, you're worrying about nothing. As was said before, you don't need to worry until you're creeping up to the 220+ range, and even then (as was stated) that's only a problem if it's not cooling down as you drive.

Did you say you're runnign 2 fans? One on either side? That's unnecessary, and the "Pusher" fan – unless I'm mistaken that means you have the fan in front of the radiator - That could be a problem – the fan should be on the engine side of the radiator to allow the maximum amount of air volume through the fins. Putting something in front just impedes airflow.

Here's a great experiment that I bet will surprise you. Take both of your fans off the car - the electric fan and the belt driven fan - and drive the car around the neighborhood keeping your speed above 25mph. I bet your car runs at exactly the same 185 - 190deg. The volume of air above 25 or 30 mph should be more than plenty to cool the radiator. If that's the case (and I'll bet you it is), your cooling system is fine. Remove the parasitic belt fan, swap the electric fan to the engine side, and enjoy your ride.

Also – too lean OR too rich can cause the car to run hot. Lean can definitely be a problem. Going *slightly* rich (and I'm talking 1/8 to 1 / 4 turn max to rich) could help. You may want to raise your idle speed just a bit to keep your water pump spinning a little faster. Experiment and see what works.

No older big block is going to stay cool while sitting idling. Ultimately, you're just going to slow the creep, not stop it. I'm sure you're going to be unhappy if you spend a bunch of money on this problem.

The problem with gauges is that you're looking at it it's just something to obsess over.

[myk]

Did you say you're runnign 2 fans? One on either side? That's unnecessary, and the "Pusher" fan – unless I'm mistaken that means you have the fan in front of the radiator - That could be a problem – the fan should be on the engine side of the radiator to allow the maximum amount of air volume through the fins. Putting something in front just impedes airflow.

That's not a bad idea.  I only have the stock engine driven fan and have never had problems with cooling.  Cruising I'm guaranteed 160.  At idle on a hot day 180, maybe 200 but as it was said before it's not a problem..

[Musicman]

Your car is running great, and in my opinion you're going to chase a problem you won't be able to solve.

If you're running 185deg with a 180deg thermostat while driving that's exactly how it should be. Your cooling system is working properly.

A cooler thermostat isn't going to help the problem you have and may make it worse. All a 160deg thermostat will do is open earlier, and not allow the proper heat transfer as the water will just flow around the engine. It needs time in the radiator core to properly cool the water before going back into the engine.

These cars get warm - if you're getting up to 200 deg and that's it, you're worrying about nothing. As was said before, you don't need to worry until you're creeping up to the 220+ range, and even then (as was stated) that's only a problem if it's not cooling down as you drive.

Did you say you're runnign 2 fans? One on either side? That's unnecessary, and the "Pusher" fan – unless I'm mistaken that means you have the fan in front of the radiator - That could be a problem – the fan should be on the engine side of the radiator to allow the maximum amount of air volume through the fins. Putting something in front just impedes airflow.

Here's a great experiment that I bet will surprise you. Take both of your fans off the car - the electric fan and the belt driven fan - and drive the car around the neighborhood keeping your speed above 25mph. I bet your car runs at exactly the same 185 - 190deg. The volume of air above 25 or 30 mph should be more than plenty to cool the radiator. If that's the case (and I'll bet you it is), your cooling system is fine. Remove the parasitic belt fan, swap the electric fan to the engine side, and enjoy your ride.

Also – too lean OR too rich can cause the car to run hot. Lean can definitely be a problem. Going *slightly* rich (and I'm talking 1/8 to 1 / 4 turn max to rich) could help. You may want to raise your idle speed just a bit to keep your water pump spinning a little faster. Experiment and see what works.

No older big block is going to stay cool while sitting idling. Ultimately, you're just going to slow the creep, not stop it. I'm sure you're going to be unhappy if you spend a bunch of money on this problem.

The problem with gauges is that you're looking at it it's just something to obsess over.

Good advice... 

[440fan]

Your car is running great, and in my opinion you're going to chase a problem you won't be able to solve.

If you're running 185deg with a 180deg thermostat while driving that's exactly how it should be. Your cooling system is working properly.

A cooler thermostat isn't going to help the problem you have and may make it worse. All a 160deg thermostat will do is open earlier, and not allow the proper heat transfer as the water will just flow around the engine. It needs time in the radiator core to properly cool the water before going back into the engine.

These cars get warm - if you're getting up to 200 deg and that's it, you're worrying about nothing. As was said before, you don't need to worry until you're creeping up to the 220+ range, and even then (as was stated) that's only a problem if it's not cooling down as you drive.

Did you say you're runnign 2 fans? One on either side? That's unnecessary, and the "Pusher" fan – unless I'm mistaken that means you have the fan in front of the radiator - That could be a problem – the fan should be on the engine side of the radiator to allow the maximum amount of air volume through the fins. Putting something in front just impedes airflow.

Here's a great experiment that I bet will surprise you. Take both of your fans off the car - the electric fan and the belt driven fan - and drive the car around the neighborhood keeping your speed above 25mph. I bet your car runs at exactly the same 185 - 190deg. The volume of air above 25 or 30 mph should be more than plenty to cool the radiator. If that's the case (and I'll bet you it is), your cooling system is fine. Remove the parasitic belt fan, swap the electric fan to the engine side, and enjoy your ride.

Also – too lean OR too rich can cause the car to run hot. Lean can definitely be a problem. Going *slightly* rich (and I'm talking 1/8 to 1 / 4 turn max to rich) could help. You may want to raise your idle speed just a bit to keep your water pump spinning a little faster. Experiment and see what works.

No older big block is going to stay cool while sitting idling. Ultimately, you're just going to slow the creep, not stop it. I'm sure you're going to be unhappy if you spend a bunch of money on this problem.

The problem with gauges is that you're looking at it it's just something to obsess over.

I agree 100% and yes also be careful running to rich but the above advice of 1/8 to 1/4 on the rich side is right on the money...

[71green go]

I have had the same problem with my 455 in my olds 71 442......I put in a 4 core rad and away went the probllem...never overheated again!.....I am also doing the same in my 454 Camaro...and now in my 71 440 R/T..........bigger rad seemed to work!....didnt change anything else..

[69chargeryeehaa]

well here's an update.  I installed the rubber seal between the hood and rad support.  I installed a 180* deg Mr Gasket high-flow stat.  also removed the pusher electric fan.  Now everything is stock except the high flow stat.  WHAT A HUGE DIFFERENCE.  The car used to drive (correction to my old post now that i payed attention to the gauge) 190 when crusin, and creeped from there at a stop, probably reaching 200 then vapor lock symptoms were setting in.  Now it cruises at 175-180; it cycles between there, you can see the stat open and close, when it opens it drops instantly to 175, then slowly goes to 180.  Last night i put the parking brake on, left it idling in gear for 15 mins, after a 1hr drive, and it stayed rock solid at 180.  Plus i can hardly believe how much less engine compartment heat there is now.  Also one thing that i thought was stupid when i was doing, but did anyways was wrap the fuel line in tinfoil.  to my total amazement the fuel line is cold now, where before it was almost impossible to touch > that one blew me away.  Anyways, i still have the milodon high flow pump on order, i'll put that in as well and i'm positive my running hot issues are solved now. thanks for all the help guys, i was really  my head on this one.   

[Charger-Bodie]

Great News!!! 

[69chargeryeehaa]

Great News!!! 

Yes it is.   I'm as happy as a pig in $hit!!!     i could not believe regular old tin foil was so effective at reflecting heat as it does.  The part of the fuel line that i didn't wrap with foil was hot, and the part i did was totally cold!!!! i have a new item to add to my tool box as well as the following "must have items": duct tape, electrical tape, zip ties, JB weld, hammer, automotive GOOP, TIN FOIL!!!! i'm convinced that with these items anything can be fixed!!!   

[myk]

Glad you found the problem and fixed it.  I have to ask though, if your car runs better without the electric fan, what is the proper way to mount an electric fan?  Or, what was wrong with the way you mounted your fan? 

[69chargeryeehaa]

Glad you found the problem and fixed it.  I have to ask though, if your car runs better without the electric fan, what is the proper way to mount an electric fan?  Or, what was wrong with the way you mounted your fan? 

My logic is that the mechanical fan is probably the best setup, i wanted to get the cooling system working without the electric fan; stock.  My thinking is that when the electric fan is off, it's an obstruction to air flow.  And when it's on, it's supplying the mechanical fan with air flow from the center of the rad (it was a 16" electric fan) and when it's on it doesn't allow the mech fan to draw air evenly from the entire surface of the rad.  I think the pusher fan is not the best method, instead it would be better to remove the mech fan and use the electric fan only with a shroud as a puller, then it would be fine; basically mimicking the stock setup with a electric fan, but you pay for it in taxing your electrical system, the fan i had was only 1600cfm and it pulled about 20A when it was running.  The version of electric fan i had was mounted directly to the face of the rad with cable ties that went thru the rad, i think it would work better if it were mounted 3-4" away from the front of the rad as it was on my old charger, in that configuration it actually really helped but it was really tight, just barley clearing the mount support for the grille.  But the electric fan is in my opinion a "band-aid" to another problem, it may help but it's not fixing the original issue. 

I'm a little perplexed why the high-flow stat made such a huge difference.  I've had the exact same combo except for the electric fan, and the thermostat, and still had a creeping temperature rise when sitting at idle in gear.  Not to mention the high reduction in engine bay temperatures, all from the high-flow stat and removing the electric fan.  I give the success to the stat and not removing the electric fan, although every little improvement to air flow helps, therefore removing the ele fan a wise choice.  Now granted the outside temps were not that hot when i tested, but they were the same temps that i had the problem in, and now there is not a hint of running hot at idle in gear; so i think i'm fine when it really gets hot out...

[69chargeryeehaa]

OK GUYS, TOTALLY STRIKE MY PREVIOUS POST.  THE DAMM THING STILL RUNS HOT. 

Who wants to buy a nice charger r/t???

I just don't get it, i went out for a drive, everything was fine, 175-180, then i hit traffic, there she went, 185, 190, 195, 200....then it ran like crap.

I'm totally lost for just about the first time, i just can't see what the problem is, as long as i'm moving, everything is perfect.

HELP....

[RD]

when was the last time you changed your coolant?  this is a leading question.

[Corellian Corvette]

Hear me out on this one. 200deg sitting in traffic is NOT too hot for your engine. Anyone who tells you they are getting their Big Block to maintain a constant 180 - 190 deg sitting idle is, to put it politely, misinformed. The thing is going to heat up in traffic. It's just the way it is. Nothing about the situation you're describing is unusual or alarming, honestly. 

I hear many people discussing maximum CFM flow of blade engine fans vs. electrical draw on the system, etc.  – and most people forget a very simple fact: Your car does not need to be spinning the fan to keep the engine cool AT SPEED. Natural airflow is doing that. When you're cruising down the freeway at 55+ MPH, all your fan is doing is creating a gigantic amount of drag on your pulley system, and your engine is expending HP and GAS to keep that unnecessary fan running.

At IDLE, when your engine NEEDS to be cooled, no belt driven fan can come close to the CFM generated by the electric fan, which is running at full speed. This is why every modern car runs Electric – the thing only comes on when the car gets hot. And no amount of draw on your electrical system is going to compare with the power it takes the engine to overcome the drag created by that fan (and, BTW, people always think an electric fan is creating some burden on your Alternator or whatnot, but as you know the fan us actually powered directly off the battery; the only draw from your "electrical system" is the small amount of power used to turn on the relay).

If you're building a driver, ditch that steel parasitic fan, and put the electric fan on the engine side. Set it to go on about 195 deg, and it will maintain your engine temperature perfectly. Additionally, you WILL feel a SOTP improvement in throttle response as your engine no longer has to overcome the drag, and the car will be less noisy on the highway. And remember again, 200deg for a short period at idle is normal.

Now that we're past the overheating issue, let's address why your car "runs like crap" when the temp gets over 200deg. THAT'S the only thing that's unusual – the car should run fine regardless of the engine coolant temp.

My guess is that your carburetor is bolted directly to your manifold, and is acting as a heat-sink and boiling the gas. If you have an iron manifold and haven't blocked the exhaust passages for the choke, that little Aluminum carb is getting cooked. A couple of suggestions (even if these aren't directly the problem, they are worthwhile to do anyway)

•   Get yourself a really short Phenolic spacer for the carb. DO NOT get one of those cheapie aluminum spacers they sell at the parts stores, it will only make the problem worse. It doesn't have to be thick – even a little 1/ 2 in spacer works great. Get a good one that matches your intake pattern, like this http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=SUM%2DG1402&N=700+4294873482+115&autoview=sku
•   If you're running the manual, heated choke that probably means your exhaust passage crossover under the intake is open. Block that puppy up and convert to an electric choke. Running the exhaust under the manifold is great if you're in a cold climate to help heat the engine, but totally unnecessary in warmer climates and could be making your boiling problem worse. 
•   Make sure you don't have any exhaust leaks – this will case air to be drawn back into the heads and can cause them to get hotter than they should, thereby heating up your intake/carb.

I'm also a bit concerned when you say your fuel line is getting hot. You should just do a visual check and make sure there is no contact anywhere – I'll double check my car, but I can't believe that the heat thrown off by your engine is getting your fuel line hot to the touch. Make sure your fuel line is NOT touching any part of the engine, anywhere. No part of the metal line should come in contact with the block. And make sure you don't have an exhaust leak that near the manifold/header pipe connection. That could be throwing super hot gasses right on the fuel line.

I think the fact that your car starts to run bad is making the temp issue seem worse than it is. Let us know how it works.

[myk]

C-Vette brings up alot of great points.  Out of curiosity, if we were to switch to 'ele fans only, how big of a CFM fan would we need to mount?  Also, it'd be a puller and not a pusher, right?

[Musicman]

Hear me out on this one. 200deg sitting in traffic is NOT too hot for your engine. Anyone who tells you they are getting their Big Block to maintain a constant 180 - 190 deg sitting idle is, to put it politely, misinformed. The thing is going to heat up in traffic. It's just the way it is. Nothing about the situation you're describing is unusual or alarming, honestly. 

I hear many people discussing maximum CFM flow of blade engine fans vs. electrical draw on the system, etc.  – and most people forget a very simple fact: Your car does not need to be spinning the fan to keep the engine cool AT SPEED. Natural airflow is doing that. When you're cruising down the freeway at 55+ MPH, all your fan is doing is creating a gigantic amount of drag on your pulley system, and your engine is expending HP and GAS to keep that unnecessary fan running.

At IDLE, when your engine NEEDS to be cooled, no belt driven fan can come close to the CFM generated by the electric fan, which is running at full speed. This is why every modern car runs Electric – the thing only comes on when the car gets hot. And no amount of draw on your electrical system is going to compare with the power it takes the engine to overcome the drag created by that fan (and, BTW, people always think an electric fan is creating some burden on your Alternator or whatnot, but as you know the fan us actually powered directly off the battery; the only draw from your "electrical system" is the small amount of power used to turn on the relay).

If you're building a driver, ditch that steel parasitic fan, and put the electric fan on the engine side. Set it to go on about 195 deg, and it will maintain your engine temperature perfectly. Additionally, you WILL feel a SOTP improvement in throttle response as your engine no longer has to overcome the drag, and the car will be less noisy on the highway. And remember again, 200deg for a short period at idle is normal.

Now that we're past the overheating issue, let's address why your car "runs like crap" when the temp gets over 200deg. THAT'S the only thing that's unusual – the car should run fine regardless of the engine coolant temp.

My guess is that your carburetor is bolted directly to your manifold, and is acting as a heat-sink and boiling the gas. If you have an iron manifold and haven't blocked the exhaust passages for the choke, that little Aluminum carb is getting cooked. A couple of suggestions (even if these aren't directly the problem, they are worthwhile to do anyway)

•   Get yourself a really short Phenolic spacer for the carb. DO NOT get one of those cheapie aluminum spacers they sell at the parts stores, it will only make the problem worse. It doesn't have to be thick – even a little 1/ 2 in spacer works great. Get a good one that matches your intake pattern, like this http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=SUM%2DG1402&N=700+4294873482+115&autoview=sku
•   If you're running the manual, heated choke that probably means your exhaust passage crossover under the intake is open. Block that puppy up and convert to an electric choke. Running the exhaust under the manifold is great if you're in a cold climate to help heat the engine, but totally unnecessary in warmer climates and could be making your boiling problem worse. 
•   Make sure you don't have any exhaust leaks – this will case air to be drawn back into the heads and can cause them to get hotter than they should, thereby heating up your intake/carb.

I'm also a bit concerned when you say your fuel line is getting hot. You should just do a visual check and make sure there is no contact anywhere – I'll double check my car, but I can't believe that the heat thrown off by your engine is getting your fuel line hot to the touch. Make sure your fuel line is NOT touching any part of the engine, anywhere. No part of the metal line should come in contact with the block. And make sure you don't have an exhaust leak that near the manifold/header pipe connection. That could be throwing super hot gasses right on the fuel line.

I think the fact that your car starts to run bad is making the temp issue seem worse than it is. Let us know how it works.

Like I already said earlier...    Good Advice  ... and Thanks Again for taking the time to elaborate on the information posted.

[69chargeryeehaa]

great info there, please keep it comming.....

The intake is a eddy CH4B, with a eddy 1411 ele choke carb.  I have the 1/2" eddy insulating gasket under the carb.  The fuel line i relocated out to the side with a rubber line from the fuel pump, up and over to the side up and over to the carb.  Last night the coil was very hot to the touch (my coil is near when the stock washer bottle is on a charger, just under there).  Coolant was flushed and filled last fall, 16lb cap.  I have stock exhaust manifolds with the flapper removed, and the intake gaskets to block off the manifold heat.  The exhaust system is a new TTi 2.5" h-pipe system and there are absolutely no exhaust leaks at all.  The car starts, runs, idles PERFECTLY when its NOT hot.  At 190-195 it starts running crappy (just a little) last night it was vapor locking and actually died on me (at 200).  I restarted it and held the rpms at 2000,for a few minutes, then drove off at 40mph, and the car cooled down to 180 in 1 mins; but shortly after that i stopped at a park and opened the hood, even though the temp was 180-185, there was a TONN of engine compartment heat. 

I'm beginning to wonder about timing, i have 15 initial, 35 total mech and 14 vac adv.  Everything is hooked up properly, ported vac to advance, ect.....I'm thinking about going to the factory specs which is AUTO 5deg btdc.  But i can't remember the relationship to heat, less or more timing? or both??

What i see happening here is that there just gets to a point where the engine compartment heat just keeps rising and the engine just can't cool or overcome it.  For the first 30 mins of driving there's no issue, until everything just gets too hot.....

Funny thing i was thinking about last night, i also have a 1974 VW Beetle, i've had the car for a long time, and i've actually fought a totally opposite battle with that car a while ago, and that was trying to make the car run HOTTER!!!!  it was running with oil temps at 120, and i wanted it closer to 180 to stop breather gunk.  Putting a stock air bellows thermostat in with the flaps forces it to run hotter, ahhhhh the good old days...  

[69chargeryeehaa]

pic

[69chargeryeehaa]

pic

[Just 6T9 CHGR]

You have a solid fan in there???

Toss that & get the viscous fan package from Mopar.........
& the correct upper hose while you are at it instead of that universal one...

[0X01B8]

Sorry you're having so much trouble.  One thing I've been doing at the start of springtime is drain my radiator and put in regular old water.  Then I add some Water Wetter or similar product.  Antifreeze is a pretty crappy coolant, in reality.  WW is basically a lot of $ for essentially dish washing liquid, without the suds, and not that concentrated.  Go try and wash a plate with just water and see how the water won't stick to the plate.  Then add a drop of dish washing liquid to the plate and compare how much better the water bonds to the plate.  Same thing in your motor.  The more water molecules that can contact the hot surfaces in the motor means more heat they can transfer.

I don't completely know what I'm talking about, but this seems to work pretty good for me.      I'd try draining your entire system and replace with 100% water and a bottle of WW or something like it.  I think they usually have a rust inhibitor in them as well.  WW + antifreeze will have almost no effect, IIRC.  We have almost the same build and my temp needle does climb some after extended idling on hot days, but never causes drivability problems.  I've also got spacers between the carb and iron intake.  I added the vapor separator / fuel filter last year and that eliminated any hard cranking when hot too.  Good luck.   

-john

[69chargeryeehaa]

You have a solid fan in there???

Toss that & get the viscous fan package from Mopar.........
& the correct upper hose while you are at it instead of that universal one...

yes, solid 7 blade, stock.  I really don't see the fan and hose being the problem, i thought the hose was the good one with the spring in it? Everything is "perfect" yet it still runs hot, i don't just want to throw parts at it, besides with everything stock i should be able to run cool, or at least not overheat.

[0X01B8]

I think you want the spring in the bottom hose so it won't collapse under pressure.

[69chargeryeehaa]

so i've been reading posts i searched for, and found this one: http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,15771.0.html

at the end on page 2, he says it was the fuel pump in the end.  Now hear me out, last night my car actually died on me at about 190, i started it back up held the rpms at 2000 for a min and drove off, after several attempts of this i was off, and drove 20 mi home with no problems (but allways moving, temps were at 180 moving, and creeping up at lights, but they were all short), but i have been noticing lately it's not running that good idle when hot as it used to.  I don't know why it starts running like crap when it's hot, but i'm putting 2 and 2 together here and thinking that the fuel pump is getting hot, and failing, at idle causing a lean condition which = HEAT, and ultimately my problem.  I'm sure my combo, parts used are good in the cooling system, and this just doesn't make cents.  Whatcha think? ummm?

[RD]

sounds plausible, but do this first and it wont cost you a dime.

jack up your car, in the front about 10", remove your radiator cap, start the engine and let it idle to operating temperature and monitor for any bubbles escaping from the radiator cap position.  You may have pockets in your block causing the coolant not to flow properly.

Is it really this?  I dont know, but it doesnt cost anything and it is one more thing to check off the list to ensure you are going down the right path.

[69chargeryeehaa]

sounds plausible, but do this first and it wont cost you a dime.

jack up your car, in the front about 10", remove your radiator cap, start the engine and let it idle to operating temperature and monitor for any bubbles escaping from the radiator cap position.  You may have pockets in your block causing the coolant not to flow properly.

Is it really this?  I dont know, but it doesnt cost anything and it is one more thing to check off the list to ensure you are going down the right path.

well i just replaced the thermostat, drained coolant, before putting on the thermostat housing, i filled the pump just below the thermostat, installed it, and poured the rest of the coolant in the rad.  it took exactly what i took out, and i've been driving the car for months but it was colder out; actually quite cold.  I added some coolant as well and it just puked it out.  I'm convinced there is no air in the cooling system, besides at 10mph it goes right down to 180 in less than 30secs.  The fuel pump is the only thing i can think of right now.  There are no air bubbles in the coolant when you revv the motor with the cap off, everything with the cooling system is perfect, i'm not using/loosing any coolant, it looks crystal clear.   

[y3chargerrt]

Your initial timing is 15 with 35 mechnical advance? Total timing should be around 35 and you have 50.Maybe part of the problem.

[69chargeryeehaa]

Your initial timing is 15 with 35 mechnical advance? Total timing should be around 35 and you have 50.Maybe part of the problem.

no initial timing 15, mech adv 20, 35 total mech timing, and additional 14 of vac advance. 

[firefighter3931]

Does your waterpump have an anti-cavitation plate installed ? Are you running stock pullies ? What waterpump and how many vanes ?

Based on your description, the pump isn't moving enough coolant at idle. 

I would upgrade to the Milidon pump which has multiple vanes and an anti-cavitation plate. 


Ron

[69chargeryeehaa]

Does your waterpump have an anti-cavitation plate installed ? Are you running stock pullies ? What waterpump and how many vanes ?

Based on your description, the pump isn't moving enough coolant at idle. 

I would upgrade to the Milidon pump which has multiple vanes and an anti-cavitation plate. 


Ron

pump is stock, actually everything is stock, i've ordered the milodon pump as well and i'll be putting that on for good measure regardless, but i'm convinced that all this heat/running hot issue is no longer the cooling system, it has to be running lean.  Its' jetted the way it has been for years, and just now this problem started.  I also noticed recently that at light throttle cruise i get a little surging happening, it's pointing me to a fuel issue.  The carb is about 2 years old, AFB eddy 1411, with a 1/2" insulating gasket, it must be the fuel pump.  Plus i notice incredible engine compartment heat which i did'nt have before, and it feels like the manifolds are getting much hotter than they were before, i'll try changing the fuel pump, it's the only thing that makes sense now....

[superduperbee]

If you live in an area where the new oxygenated gas is being sold, you may need to jet it richer.

[firefighter3931]

It's possible that the fuel pump is getting heat soaked....but that could simply be a byproduct of the overheating isssue. I'm still leaning towards the waterpump not creating enough circulation at low engine speed. 

Automatic transmissions also create a lot of heat in gear, at idle. Have you tried testing it with the engine idleing and the transmission in neutral or park ? That would be an interesting comparison and might help isolate the problem. 



Ron

[69chargeryeehaa]

It's possible that the fuel pump is getting heat soaked....but that could simply be a byproduct of the overheating isssue. I'm still leaning towards the waterpump not creating enough circulation at low engine speed. 

Automatic transmissions also create a lot of heat in gear, at idle. Have you tried testing it with the engine idleing and the transmission in neutral or park ? That would be an interesting comparison and might help isolate the problem. 



Ron

well at light throttle cruise i get a little surge i attributed to the warmer weather, but now it's making cents to me that maybe the pump is on the way out? or pumping just barley at idle?  Becuase when you first hit a light it's fine, then it starts getting hotter, and running worse at the same time....?   It very slowly climbs in neutral or park, if at all, it seems in gear makes a difference mainly by reducing rpm's? i've set it to 700 rpm in gear....?  I'm really thinking fuel pump, everything is new/good, insulating gasket under carb, cooling system all stock and NEW, it's the only thing i have'nt changed, timing/mixture is perfect, the problem is recently reared it's head, since the temperature went up outside it's getting worse and worse.  Plus i'm getting very high underhood temps that i never had before, the exhaust manifolds seem to be getting really really hot = LEAN? but jetting has'nt changed for years, all of a sudden it can't be bad???  I'll check the floats, and jets (maybe one is plugged?) at this point i'm really: 

[firefighter3931]

It might be time to get your car on a chassis dyno with a wideband 02 sensor to see what the fuel curve looks like. 



Ron

[Corellian Corvette]

This is like an episode of CSI.

I have another hypothesis - and that is that your Coil may be going bad. You may be looking for symptoms of the wrong problem.

Sounds strange I know - but you mentioned something in one of your posts about your coil getting REALLY hot. I don't care how much heat soak is going on under your hood, but having your coil mounted off the intake and on the inside fender like that, I don't think your coil should be getting that hot.

The only time I've experienced a SUPER hot coil was when I was feeding it too much power and killing it.  It's possible that it's failing, and the heat is because of excessive resistance in the coil, or too much power, and that's why your engine is dying. So it would seem like it's because your engine is getting hot, when in fact it's your ignition that is going bad. That would exhibit may of the same symptoms.

Check all your wiring in that area and make sure you don't have a frayed wire somewhere that might be grounding out, or if your wiring is old that you have excessive resistance in the wires.

Also, make sure you have the right coil to be accepting a full 12v if that's what you're doing. Coils like the Blaster II still require a resistance wire on the primary side and can't take a full feed.  You'll need something like the Pertronix Blaster II coil with 0.6 ohm resistance to feed 12v directly.

Just a thought!

[Corellian Corvette]

I don't completely know what I'm talking about, but this seems to work pretty good for me.      I'd try draining your entire system and replace with 100% water and a bottle of WW or something like it.  I think they usually have a rust inhibitor in them as well.  WW + antifreeze will have almost no effect, IIRC.  We have almost the same build and my temp needle does climb some after extended idling on hot days, but never causes drivability problems.  I've also got spacers between the carb and iron intake.  I added the vapor separator / fuel filter last year and that eliminated any hard cranking when hot too.  Good luck.   
-john

John - one quick piece of advice, which is free, so you get what you pay for

You should never run 100% water on a street car. There is no debate that pure water cools better, but it's really, really bad over the long haul on a street motor. I know some guys run pure water at the track, but 100% water will make your cooling passages look like the bottom of the ocean!

"Antifreeze" does more than keep the water from freezing. The chemicals in the coolant help prevent corrosion from happening inside your water passages, it lubricates things like your water pump, and it raises the boiling point of the water (as does the pressure in the system) to help keep the engine from overheating. Yes, the heat transfer properties of pure water are better, but water is an amazing electrical conductor, and on the whole, straight water will wreak havoc if run for prolonged periods. Even something like a 60/40 ratio of Water/Coolant is overall better for your engine!

Note - if you have ANY aluminum parts on your engine, you HAVE to run some sort of coolant. Otherwise, the electrolosis created by the water and the iron will literally eat through any aluminum parts!

[440fan]

Sounds like your timing is off. Get it hooked up to a dino and have it checked.

[69chargeryeehaa]

Sounds like your timing is off. Get it hooked up to a dino and have it checked.

TIMING IS PERFECT>>>> 15 INITIAL, 35 TOTAL ALL IN BY 2000

[mikepmcs]

All in by 2000.  Isn't that a little quick to come in, like the advance needs to be adjusted or run a stiffer spring in the dizzy or something?  Probably doesn't have anything to do with your heat issue but that just seems too quick.

v/r
Mike

[69chargeryeehaa]

All in by 2000.  Isn't that a little quick to come in, like the advance needs to be adjusted or run a stiffer spring in the dizzy or something?  Probably doesn't have anything to do with your heat issue but that just seems too quick.

v/r
Mike

actually it's all in by about 2200, 2300rpms, which is perfect for a BB with 3.23 gears and a 28" tall rear tire.....but the initial at idle is still 15deg so that could'nt be an issue.  It's a stock mp ele ign kit, i actually like the early mech adv...?

[0X01B8]

John - one quick piece of advice, which is free, so you get what you pay for

You should never run 100% water on a street car. There is no debate that pure water cools better, but it's really, really bad over the long haul on a street motor. I know some guys run pure water at the track, but 100% water will make your cooling passages look like the bottom of the ocean!

"Antifreeze" does more than keep the water from freezing. The chemicals in the coolant help prevent corrosion from happening inside your water passages, it lubricates things like your water pump, and it raises the boiling point of the water (as does the pressure in the system) to help keep the engine from overheating. Yes, the heat transfer properties of pure water are better, but water is an amazing electrical conductor, and on the whole, straight water will wreak havoc if run for prolonged periods. Even something like a 60/40 ratio of Water/Coolant is overall better for your engine!

Note - if you have ANY aluminum parts on your engine, you HAVE to run some sort of coolant. Otherwise, the electrolosis created by the water and the iron will literally eat through any aluminum parts!

I appreciate the reply, thanks.  I actually don't run 100% water, but I was suggesting he try it, plus the additive, and see what happens.  Guess I shoulda been more clear on that.  I don't know what the mix is that I have, but I put some in the freezer to see what it was good for, and it started freezing around 20 or so.  (love those infrared thermometers, BTW)

[69chargeryeehaa]

here's an update, i got the milodon high flow pump, new carter fuel pump, new heater hoses (going to bring them up to the fender as they are too close to the exhaust manifolds), coolant, going to clean/inspect carb for plugged jet, and i'm putting the electric fan back on since that wasn't the problem, plus at the last mopar show when i had no heat issues i was just about the only car that could idle for 1hr without overheating with the electric fan on!!!!  now i can't just drive!!!!  what a turn of events/   

So hopefully after changing the fuel pump, water pump, flush/fill coolant, clean carb, putting electric fan back on, it better be fixed or else...   Right now i don't care what fixes is i just want it to run cool, i had it running cool once.....

I'm really thinking the fuel pump is the issues, that would explain my lean surging at cruise, running hot at idle, and the running rough/dieing at idle.....that's the only logical explanation for all my symptoms.....for now.....

[Challenger340]

Just my opinion,
I like 35 total timing, but with 3.23 and 28" tires, I prefer to see "all in" occuring closer to around 2800.
Unless,
It's really struggling to see 8.5:1 Compression, then it'd like the big lead ?

Opinions ?

[69chargeryeehaa]

Just my opinion,
I like 35 total timing, but with 3.23 and 28" tires, I prefer to see "all in" occuring closer to around 2800.
Unless,
It's really struggling to see 8.5:1 Compression, then it'd like the big lead ?

Opinions ?

well you may be right, who knows, but my problem is not at speed, just at idle in gear, where it's timed at 15 initial, so that's not my problem.

[69chargeryeehaa]

Well here's where i'm at now: the car has 17" of vaccum at idle hot in gear (650-700rpm). So i could possibly rule out the intake as leaking. I did re-torque it, it was not loose at all, nice and tight.

I changed the fuel pump, filter, and i'm going to completely take the carb apart and clean it (hopefully i'll find something). If all that checks out ok, i'm going to then concentrate on iginition. Maybe something is getting hot/failing like the ecu, coil, ballast resistor, pick-up. i'll change one part at a time to see if it gets fixed.

If that does'nt work, I TOTALLY GIVE UP!!! 

What i have just done:
-flush/drain cooling system (old coolant by the way was like NEW/very clear/clean).
-new rad cap.
-high flow stat 180.
-milodon high flow water pump.
-new heater hoses (were too close to exhaust manifolds).
-new carter fuel pump and new fuel filter.

When i start it, i'll re-adjust the idle mixture with a vac guage, check timing, and cross my fingers.

At this point i'd be happy if the car would run 190ish and NOT DIE on me. If it'll hold temp at under 200 when it's hot and not die i'd be happy as a pig in $hit!!!!.

Also today is stupid hot in Toronto, so tonite will be a good test, wish me luck.

[Just 6T9 CHGR]

Also for shits & giggles, you checked the fuel pump pushrod length no?   I returned 2 new Carter Hemi pumps to Summit before I realized the pushrod ground down 3/4" smaller on the cam side.  Turns out a while back Mopar had a bad run of these pushrods & they weren't hardened properly.

Just a thought

[RD]

now..i dont mean to jest, but are you sure your gauge is right?

[resq302]

Also for shits & giggles, you checked the fuel pump pushrod length no?   I returned 2 new Carter Hemi pumps to Summit before I realized the pushrod ground down 3/4" smaller on the cam side.  Turns out a while back Mopar had a bad run of these pushrods & they weren't hardened properly.

Just a thought

  I might have to check that out also.  That might be the problem with my lean issue when I go from idle to wide open throttle or cruising to WOT.   

  Good info Chris!

[Rob R]

I'd try fattening it up and see if that has any effect...chances are there's a piston that's a couple of tenths too tight...seen it more times than I can count

I still stand by with my first suggestion...

something mechanical is heating a cyl or two for that much heat

[69chargeryeehaa]

well, i have good news.....

I've done everything i listed in my last post, and the car ran at 175-180 with the new pump, ect....but still ran a little crappy after about an hour of driving....so i changed the coil, and the problem disappeared completely.  By the way, this weekend in toronto, it's been extremely hot out, 39*deg C, and very humid.  perfect testing grounds.  I can see a huge difference in water flow in the rad at idle, where before coolant would just barley move past the top, now at idle it's a very nice stream of coolant.  Huge difference in cooling, the car runs great now, last night at a cruise night i was idling for 15mins in this heat, the car did get to 190, but not higher, the electric fan really makes a big difference at idle in gear stopped, it really keeps things under control.  Funny, this is the 3rd coil i've tested, 2 new ones, 1 old one that was a known good one, they all failed, and the one that works perfectly is the big old accell yellow plastic one, that was the coil on the car when i bought it and drove it from Minnesota to Toronto in retarded hot conditions, and the car never went over 200-205 in insane heat.   I also changed the ballast resistor, hot i was getting 8-9 volts at the coil, but changed it for piece of mind.   The upgrades I've done to the cooling system (high flow stat, and water pump) really made a big difference.  I can't believe i have 3 crappy coils....I can officially say the car is ok now.....thank GOD>..

[mikepmcs]

 

[RECHRGD]

well, i have good news.....

I've done everything i listed in my last post, and the car ran at 175-180 with the new pump, ect....but still ran a little crappy after about an hour of driving....so i changed the coil, and the problem disappeared completely. By the way, this weekend in toronto, it's been extremely hot out, 39*deg C, and very humid. perfect testing grounds. I can see a huge difference in water flow in the rad at idle, where before coolant would just barley move past the top, now at idle it's a very nice stream of coolant. Huge difference in cooling, the car runs great now, last night at a cruise night i was idling for 15mins in this heat, the car did get to 190, but not higher, the electric fan really makes a big difference at idle in gear stopped, it really keeps things under control. Funny, this is the 3rd coil i've tested, 2 new ones, 1 old one that was a known good one, they all failed, and the one that works perfectly is the big old accell yellow plastic one, that was the coil on the car when i bought it and drove it from Minnesota to Toronto in retarded hot conditions, and the car never went over 200-205 in insane heat. I also changed the ballast resistor, hot i was getting 8-9 volts at the coil, but changed it for piece of mind. The upgrades I've done to the cooling system (high flow stat, and water pump) really made a big difference. I can't believe i have 3 crappy coils....I can officially say the car is ok now.....thank GOD>..

Glad it's OK now.  As mentioned earlier, the combination of the high flow pump/stat along with the electric fan fixed it for me also.  Funny about the coil.  I had one of the old yellow accell ones that never gave me any problems.  I switched to the chrome one and it failed in one season's time.  I've gone back to the yellow one and have had no problems.  Bob

[69chargeryeehaa]

i bought a stock coil from napa, same problem, then like you i bought the accell chrome superstock coil, same problem, then my old coil off some other car which was good, same problem, that ugly huge accell yellow coil with the giant plastic housing, fixed.   

[RD]

i bought a stock coil from napa, same problem, then like you i bought the accell chrome superstock coil, same problem, then my old coil off some other car which was good, same problem, that ugly huge accell yellow coil with the giant plastic housing, fixed.

where did you mount the napa and accel chrome coils in relation to where the yellow plastic one is mounted?

[69chargeryeehaa]

i bought a stock coil from napa, same problem, then like you i bought the accell chrome superstock coil, same problem, then my old coil off some other car which was good, same problem, that ugly huge accell yellow coil with the giant plastic housing, fixed.

where did you mount the napa and accel chrome coils in relation to where the yellow plastic one is mounted?

exact same spot, just under where the stock washerbottle would be, quite a cool spot

[RD]

i bought a stock coil from napa, same problem, then like you i bought the accell chrome superstock coil, same problem, then my old coil off some other car which was good, same problem, that ugly huge accell yellow coil with the giant plastic housing, fixed.

where did you mount the napa and accel chrome coils in relation to where the yellow plastic one is mounted?

exact same spot, just under where the stock washerbottle would be, quite a cool spot

got a pic? i am not familiar with 2nd gen engine compartments

[69chargeryeehaa]

page 2 of this thread, you can make it out in the first pic....

[craigandlynda]

wow...i recently joined, and enjoy reading that others have had all the same things happen as i did...i do have a footnote for those w overheating problems...perhaps the most obscure reason i have ever seen overheating is this....the pulleys and fan hub and fan had been changed around from the original...and the fan was actually too far from the radiator surface...usually it should be about an inch and no more...mine was two inches back, and after trying something else, i found the original setup...which cured the problem.