Eating Cams !!!!!!!

[Mopar Crazy]

Bought a rebuilt 360. Stock heads, new cam, lifters, rods, seals, locks, with adjustible rockers.
First start up,  Pre oiled and dropped dist. in ran good during it's 20 min break in.
Next day I ran the car, the engine started tapping 15 min into the second run.
Right rear lifter was wipped and took the cam with it.
Gave the motor back to the original builder and had it rebuilt.
New top end.
Ran for 35 - 45min. Again, it started tapping and wipped the lifters and cam out.
Took the engine to another builder,
This time I payed $1,600.00 plus $600.00 in parts for a new top end.
This guy said the wrong springs and rod were used. He said he put the right parts in this time.
He did the break-in. everything was fine. I drove the car for the first time, this car has not been driven until now. The two cams were wipped on idle.
I went about 6 miles and wipped the cam again.
The guy came to my house and took the intake off only to find 5 lifters wipped along with the cam AGAIN... 

I'm at my wits-end here.   Any ideas besides dragging the engine down the road??

[Tilar]

It's been a while since I've really done any engine building, but here are a few things that come to mind ...

Are they the same brand cam? Maybe they have a problem with the cam itself.

Are you using solid lifters with a hydraulic cam?

Wrong ratio rocker arms?

Springs too beefy causing bind?

Using the correct springs but someone adding shims when they aren't needed?

[Ghoste]

How about a break in oil with zinc additive?

[Hudson Hornet !]

I had the same thing happen to a 440. It turned out to be a lifter bore that was not letting the lifter rotate. wiped the cam lifter, etc. hope this helps!

[Mopar Crazy]

Thanks guys, here's more info:

Same brand of cam,   Comp.
Hydraulic cam and lifters (new)
No shims.
Did used comp. break-in oil and additive.
The speed shop maintains that the parts they gave me were a matched set: springs, lifters, cam, and rods.
I spoke to the engine builder, it seems like he wants to back away from this saying there might have been a cam bearing issue.
When someone brings in a bad motor to get fixed, isn't that checked too? especially if the cam is wiped??
Any other ideas?
Thanks

[bordin34]

I don't know much about engines , but you may have been using springs with too much pressure for break-in. Try to find some weak springs for break-in, then put on the ones you plan on using.

[oldschool]

make sure you are using the right spring for the cam.
also if they are double springs, try removing the inner spring during break in.
use the zinc additive.
when you first start the motor, keep the rpm's above 1500 and keep varying the rpm's also.
this keeps the oil splashing on the cam and lifters and also promotes the lifters to spin in their bores.
most importantly do NOT let it just sit at a low idle.

hope this helps.

[Challenger340]

make sure you are using the right spring for the cam.
also if they are double springs, try removing the inner spring during break in.
use the zinc additive.
when you first start the motor, keep the rpm's above 1500 and keep varying the rpm's also.
this keeps the oil splashing on the cam and lifters and also promotes the lifters to spin in their bores.
most importantly do NOT let it just sit at a low idle.

hope this helps.

Good Advice.

[Rolling_Thunder]

well - thats what happens when you use piece - o - shit Comp Cams....         I've had several issues with them...     including premature wear, pitting, and gouging...    my dick gets harder than the steel they use to make their cams

[Plumcrazy]

Groove the lifter bores so the cam has it's own oil supply using this tool.
http://www.compperformancegroupstores.com/store/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=CC&Product_Code=5007&Category_Code=

[Leonidas Rex]

When I was rebuilding my 289 hipo in my 67 Mustang, I went through 3 cams! I had 2 replaced and the other couldnot be replaced. I have about had it with Comp Cams. Here is a little information.

Comp Cams will not warranty or replace a cam and lifter set unless you follow their guidelines exactly. The cam breakin process includes using Rotella Diesel Oil. If you do not use it it can viod the warranty becasue it is stated specifically on their website and the directions. Comp Cams Customer service also said the same thing. After the breakin, the Rotella must be drained and replaced with the fresh oil that you intend to use.

I have also been told that cheaper oils with less zinc content will not protect the engine. I use Valvoline since it has a higher amount. I have heard that William Penn  is even higher.

Something that alot of the Ford guys use to talk about was the quality of the metal being used was inferior.

All of these factors may be it. All I can add is that unless you follow the directions to the T they will try to weasel out of it.

[Mopar Crazy]

Didn't know so many went thru the same thing. 
I guess that Comp Cams and I don't get along.        
All three times, I did follow their break-in procedure with the rotella diesel oil. After the break-in, I used Penzoil 10-40.
I'm going to pull the heads and check the valves. I was told that if someone put the wrong diameter valves in, that could have the same affect.
I'll keep you guys posted on the out come.
Thanks for all the in-put....
peter

[Leonidas Rex]

Good luck! I just had to tear down the 289 again due to blown head gaskets. I am still trying to figure this thing out. The great thing is that I can pull rebuild and replace a 289 with my eyes closed. It is getting a little expensive though.

[firefighter3931]

Ok, that's a lot of cams wiped out....something ain't right ! 

After the first one wiped....was the engine completely disassembled, flushed out and new bearings installed ? If not....there are lots of metal particles floating around in the oil passages that will screw up successive cam installations. 

Once the cam wipes it MUST be torn down completely, washed out and new bearings, rings and oilpump installed. You also need to verify that the lifters are rotating in their bores....this is done during the mockup and the engine turned over by hand....the lifters are marked and must rotate when the motor is turned over. In some cases the lifter bores are too tight or the geometry needs to be corrected. This is done by bushing the lifter bores.

The lifters themselves must have a crown on them and not be perfectly flat....or they won't spin and the cam will wipe. The valvesprings can't be too stiff or that will also cause failure. If you're using a double spring...the inner spring must be removed for the breakin.

There is nothing wrong with Comp Cams....i've used several and never had any issues. 


Lastly, as has been mentioned....you need a good oil with lots of ZZDP/Phos and a good additive. I use Valvoline VR1 20/50 racing oil and a bottle of EOS or the Comp breakin additive.




Ron

[Mopar Crazy]

Ron, What you say makes a lot of sense, The only thing that was done to the motor was they cleaned out the oil pan. This motor was never ripped down after it ate the cams. I didn't know it had to be torn down.
I have single springs with dampeners inside. I did ask the mechanic about the cam bearings, he said they were fine.
The mechanic called me tonight and told me that the original person who built the motor could have put the rear crank bearing in wrong. He said that would starve the top end for oil. But when we took the intake off, there was plenty of oil sitting there. And it didn't tap during the 25 min. break in.I do know they used the comp-additive and rotella to break the engine in.
They also told me to leave that oil in for awhile. I only drove this car (6) miles until it went. This is the same guy who charged me $1,600.00 for labor to replace the cam, springs, lifters, and rods. Oh yeah, also to find out why it ate (2) cams prior, and fix the problem. 
That didn't include parts. They coast me $600.00. 
I will have this engine torn down, but I have to find a good engine shop, I'm running out of money with these other guy's.

[Challenger340]

From what I remember,

The Camshaft "blanks", are only made by a very few Companies.

Crane, Comp, Isky, Lunati, Engle, and many others as far as I know, PURCHASE their "blanks" to grind Cams with.

I think a Federal Mogul Subsidiary, is one of the ACTUAL Manufacturers, and another plant in St. Louis, I dunno the name, I think it's "wolverine"/Blue Racer, which used to be a Clevitte Sub ?

Slagging Comp. or anybody else's Cams, really ain't fair, all they do is grind the BLANK, then parkerize harden it, or Nitride Dip(rare).

Most common causes of Camshaft lobe failure these days, is Oil ,or Break-in related. Todays Oils suck. Getting harder and harder.

Here's what we do for Flat Tappet stuff;

A good quality extreme pressure additive slathered all over the lobes & lifters

Lightweight Oils only for Break-in. They heat up and splash better, 10-30, 10-40, with a TON of additive mixed in.

IMMEDIATE fire-up and 1800 rpm are a must.
NO Crankity, Crankity.
This means the engine must be "primed", "Timed", and ready to Fire.
Set timing while it's revv'ing.
Vary the rpm up and down a few hundred rpm, in cycles of 1-2 minutes to splash Oil in different areas of the Cam.

Do NOT let it go below 17-1800 rpm at ANY TIME in the first 20-30 minutes, and DO NOT Idle the engine at all for any more than a few seconds in the next 2 hrs running time.
FORGET ABOUT IDLING TO LISTEN TO THE BUMPITY-BUMP. Go to the bathroom for your jollies.

For Hydraulic Cams, 95-105 lb seat pressure Max Single/Dampner

Solids, remove the inner springs. Do the break-in cycle twice, cool down in between 40 minutes. THEN install inners and do power runs.

Everybody hates losing a Cam lobe, but losing them twice on the same engine,
well,
I feel your pain !

Bob out.

[tecmopar]

In your post where you say "heres more info" am I reading it wrong or does it state that the cam and lifters are used parts. If they were and the lifters not going back on the same lobe then that would be your problem, good luck.

[Mopar Crazy]

Tecmopar:  All three sets were new and matched.

[firefighter3931]

Another option would be to go with a hyd roller cam, more expensive on the initial cost but no cam lobes to worry about. 

If you decide to go with another flat tappet then follow Bob's breakin/prep procedure to the letter and you will be fine. 

Like i said in my previous post i allways make sure the lifters are spinning in the bores during the mockup stage.....it's an added step but needs to be done to ensure a hassle free fireup and successful cam swap. 

The shortblock needs to be completely washed out and rebuilt, new oil pump etc....



Ron

[Ghoste]

As an aside, the recommendation to use Shell Rotella is old advice.  That oil has joined the list of no zinc additives.

[Chatt69chgr]

I'am using the Stealth Heads from 440 Source.  Got worried about the springs they come being too strong for my hydraulic cam so talked to Engle  (I'am using a K56).  Looks like the springs that come on the Stealth Heads should work OK as far as the hydraulic cam is concerned.  Engle said they like to see a seat pressure of around 120 to 125 pounds----Stealth head is 130 pounds--they said close enough.  Like to see around 280-300 pounds at .500 lift.  Stealth is only spec'd at .600 and it's 330 pounds----Engle said that at .500, the Stealth spring is probably about right.  I did decide to upgrade to 10 degree retainers and locks (probably overkill).  Plan on having the valves checked to make sure they are ground OK and that the guides have proper clearance when I have the new locks and retainers installed.  Engle told me to make sure I follow the proper breakin procedure which was detailed above and use the Zinc/phosphorus additive.  I'am thinking of getting that from ZDDP.