Axle installation. Help!

[terrible one]

Aghh! I can't do anything to this car without getting caught up! Oh well, makes the reward better.

I recently rebuilt my rear suspension and as of right now I have the case, with differential and axle seals installed, sitting on the springs. The differential is a 3.55 suregrip in a 741 case, not sure of the year.

I am installing the axles per the FSM instructions. I put the backing plate and axle assembly into the drivers side first, slid it into place, and tightened the nuts on the retainer. However, once I got to the passenger side (side with the adjuster) the axle won't seem to go in all the way. It will go in far enough to catch in the splines and turn the differential, etc. but the retainer is still about a half inch or more from touching the flange. What's the deal?

[Musicman]

Dumb question but I still have to ask anyway.... You do have the adjuster backed all the way out, and not all the way in, correct?

[firefighter3931]

Try grabbing the axle flange and rotating it around while pushing in 


Ron

[terrible one]

Dumb question but I still have to ask anyway.... You do have the adjuster backed all the way out, and not all the way in, correct?

Yep. It's neither the flange/adjuster stopping it nor the bearing assembly. It just flat out won't go in. I just got back from fighting with it again. I've got a milk crate under the yoke so that it can't spin and I've been twisting and pushing and repositioning and nothing. Is there anything else it could be? This is no good at all!

[terrible one]

Scratch that. I went back over there calmed down and inspected it. The axle was going in all the way the whole time. The retainer wouldn't go because the outer bearing race wasn't wanting to slide into the housing. I got it to get in straight and far enough to get the nuts for the retainers started, and simply tightened each one a bit moving from one to the other clockwise until I had pushed the bearing in right and the retainer was snug, then I torqued the nuts for the retainers on both sides down.

However, I'm a bit confused about setting the end play. It doesn't seem like the adjuster on the right side of the car affects the left axle? And the instructions in the FSM I don't get for some reason. Turning the adjuster clockwise threads it into the retainer, thus creating more play. Turning it counterclockwise backs it out toward me and eventually makes contact with the axle and makes it to where there is no play. Still, this doesn't affect the left axle. . .

WHAT DID I DO WRONG?! 

[Musicman]

The adjuster nut is rotated "in" clockwise until you have zero end play (IE: you can't move the axle in or out at all). Then you rotate the prop several dozen times to fully seat the bearings and eject any excess grease. Go back and check for zero end play again, if it's loose, tighten it again and repeat the prop rotations. Once your satisfied that your bearings are fully seated and you have zero end play, back off on the adjuster about 4 notches, that should get you where you want to be... install the locking tab. You can always check your end play with a dial indicator if your real concerned about it.

[Charger-Bodie]

That is one of the reasons I like Green bearings.

No adjustments neccesary.

[Musicman]

The Green Bearings are not quite as rugged as the originals, but they are still "more than adequate" in most cases, and certainly more user friendly for some folks. Myself, I don't care one way or another, the old style is easy enough... it's not rocket science... just a little more tedious.

[mikepmcs]

.008 to .018

just feel a tug and your good in and out.


v/r
Mike

[terrible one]

I think there is a problem. I understand the end play adjustment process but I obviously have way too much. I'm fearing that the thrust block or button or whatever in my new suregrip unit is different than the 2.76 peglegger I pulled out. They are both 741's though. . . I'll post pictures of the case casting numbers in just a while.

[terrible one]

Can anyone tell me anything with the case stampings?

What I pulled out (2.76 open, think it's original ('68))




What I put in (3.55 clutch type suregrip, unknown year)



As far as I can narrow it down with my Google powers, BOTH of these chunks are from anywhere through 1963-1969. So they are pretty damn similar in design I would think. . . but could that still be my problem?

[mikepmcs]

I believe that NOT to be the problem, I pulled out 2.7's(open) in a 489 case and put in 3.2's(suregrip) in with a 742 case.  my only change was the yoke end.
I had no problems with the install at all. One question TO is this.... are you adjusting the nut the wrong way?  I'm not trying to be an a$$ but I started to go the wrong way at first and it was getting all sloppy and then went the other way and the metrics of the whole process cleared up in my mind. That's just a thought and I am by no means challenging your smarts.

*edit* i just read a few posts above from musicman and yourself on the rotation of the nut, i'm still thinking though.

in the meantime read this and see if something clicks for you.  http://www.moparts.org/Tech/Archive/axle/12.html

2070741 (1964-1972)

Any 8-3/4" center section may be interchanged for another as an entire

assembly, with the exception of center sections manufactured prior to

model year 1964

Hang in there you"ll get it.

v/r
Mike

[terrible one]

This is really frustrating.

On the right side I have confirmed that the axle is in all the way, the collar is making contact with where it is suppose to be sitting in the case. Haven't looked at the left side yet.

I'll go down there and make a quick video. I really have no idea what the deal could be. Could the bearing assembly not be pressed onto the axle far enough? As in the collar is keeping the axle from going all the way in?

[Musicman]

You should have little or no threads showing on your adjuster nut at zero end play... What do you have?  You normally have to use a punch and a hammer on the adjuster nut to drive it home and achieve zero, it usually won't turn in that far by hand.

[Musicman]

Coincidently, I just discovered an article covering this subject in the AUG 2008 edition of MOPAR Action

[terrible one]

That just makes me jealous.

Alright, so I understand the end play procedure completely by now. And with that, I know it's not my problem. With the adjuster all the way in, one thread showing is as good as I can get it by hand, there is a good 1/8" of play in both axles. Hell, probably more than that.

I decided to start back from square one. I pulled both axles out and looked at them. There is a LOT of play in the bearing/retainer assemblies.

I took videos of me fiddling with the assemblies on each axle, as I don't know how much there should be or should not be. Here they are:

Left Axle:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHaKojtTH80

Right Axle:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ukuMD0tzkS8

Next, here is a picture looking through each case, showing the block or whatever in the chunks.

Old one:


New one:


From what everyone has told me (and thank you so much for all the help guys) it most likely isn't a problem with the compatibility of the differentials, but the things in the middle do look different.

Not knowing much about the axle bearing assemblies,if it IS NOT the differential, it seems to me that the axles may have walked out of the collar, as in the collar isn't as close to the axle flange/wheel end of the axle as it should be, and so when the retainer is tightened and the collar is snug, the axle isn't as far into the chunk as it should be. Does that make sense?

I appreciate all of the help. I'm determined to finish this part of my Charger and I'm going to look at it as a learning experience. If worst comes to worst I can get a different chunk, get the one I have made right, or put new bearing assemblies on there, whether it be Timkens or Greens. There aren't that many things to eliminate!

[Musicman]

With the adjuster all the way in, one thread showing is as good as I can get it by hand, there is a good 1/8" of play in both axles.

Have you used the punch and hammer that I mentioned yet? Chances are, you won't get to zero by hand...

[terrible one]

With the adjuster all the way in, one thread showing is as good as I can get it by hand, there is a good 1/8" of play in both axles.

Have you used the punch and hammer that I mentioned yet? Chances are, you won't get to zero by hand...

No but did you look at the video? It is way too off for that to make a difference. At least, I think so.

[Musicman]

Sorry... I can't view the video from here at work, but I'll have a look at it tomorrow if you haven't already solved the problem by then. 
Hopefully you don't have something Pre-64 in there somewhere... I'll check your pictures and numbers in the AM.
In the mean time... try driving the adjuster home with the punch and hammer and see what happens.

[terrible one]

Sorry... I can't view the video from here at work, but I'll have a look at it tomorrow if you haven't already solved the problem by then. 
Hopefully you don't have something Pre-64 in there somewhere... I'll check your pictures and numbers in the AM.
In the mean time... try driving the adjuster home with the punch and hammer and see what happens.

Musicman,

I went back there tonight after work and just did it per FSM instructions, and then got to the right side and did the adjuster thing like you said, and well, you know what happened.  . I misunderstood the application, I was wayyy underestimating where the adjuster bottomed out. So I got the end play down now and when my new axle seals get here (decided that maybe I shouldn't re-use the old ones and went for the safe side and plopped down the $15.00 to replace them) I'll get them in, install the axles, set the end play  , and be good to go and fill it with fluid and get the u-bolts, shock plates, and shocks on it.

Thanks for pressing the hammer-chisel thing through my hard head.

[Musicman]

Yup, your good to go 

I finally got a chance to see the pictures you posted of the 2 different carriers this morning when I was at home. Case number 2070741 is just what the doctor ordered .... Case number 1820657 (pre-64) used 2 different size axles for open & sure grip applications.

Good to hear that you finally got it figured out... Like I said earlier, it's really not a big deal "once you know what to expect".... so replace those seals, get it put back together and be proud of your efforts.... Then go get yourself a beer 

Mike 

[mikepmcs]

Root Beer that is.

Great job TO!


v/r
Mike

[terrible one]

Haha thanks guys. Updates to come. 

[Charger-Bodie]

Looks to me like you are missing the thrust button in the newly installed chunk. 

[terrible one]

What is the thrust button? Everything seems to be in order without it, end play is right between both axles. BTW there is SOMETHING in the center, the picture through the new chunk is with BOTH axles UNINSTALLED.

[Musicman]

BTW there is SOMETHING in the center...

Yup, a Thrust Block

[terrible one]

BTW there is SOMETHING in the center...

Yup, a Thrust Block

Is that the same as the "thrust button" 1hot68 was talking about?

[Musicman]

I can only assume that is what he was referring to It goes by a number of different names depending on who your talking too.

[Charger-Bodie]

here is a link to the thrust button (axle spacer) That I was refering to : http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/NOS-MOPAR-NORS-2881313-8-3-4-Axle-Spacer-67-70-Cuda-GTX_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1638Q2em118Q2el1247QQcategoryZ34208QQihZ018QQitemZ280199934386QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWD1V

here is a pic, it goes in the hole in the middle where the axles meet.

[Musicman]

I hate not being home where I can view everything... I see the pic's 1hot68 posted, and Yes those are the Thrust Blocks, Thrust Buttons, Axle Spacers, or whatever else you want to call them, that I was referring too. I've posted a couple of pic's below so you can see how they look in a Sure Grip application. If you have a big empty hole running through your pinion assembly, then yes they are missing as 1hot68 suggested. They don't generally just fall out however, but it can and does happen.
Of course, I can't see the pic's you posted, but if you find that the block assembly is missing, you can thank 1hot68 for picking up on it 

[terrible one]

I don't think it's missing. There's a block in there with a smaller hole through it but it's different than the one in the 2.76's I pulled out. 

[Charger-Bodie]

I don't think it's missing. There's a block in there with a smaller hole through it but it's different than the one in the 2.76's I pulled out. 

In the pic where youre looking in thru the housing tubes , it looks like its missing to me. 

[terrible one]

I'm not sure what to think?

If it was missing however, wouldn't that make it to where the axles had nothing to butt up against and therefore I wouldn't have been able to set end play, etc.?

[Charger-Bodie]

I'm not sure what to think?

If it was missing however, wouldn't that make it to where the axles had nothing to butt up against and therefore I wouldn't have been able to set end play, etc.?

You may just have the right axle in so far that its bottomed out , giving the illusion that its adjusted when in actuallity the left axle may not be touching at all.

[terrible one]

I'm not sure what to think?

If it was missing however, wouldn't that make it to where the axles had nothing to butt up against and therefore I wouldn't have been able to set end play, etc.?

You may just have the right axle in so far that its bottomed out , giving the illusion that its adjusted when in actuallity the left axle may not be touching at all.

I have to disagree. While I may be missing something, there is a block in the middle, and both axles are against it as the end play is at a correct measurement on both sides. Both axles are tight.

[Musicman]

I wish I could see those pic's... I wasn't smart enough to look at them at home the other day, just looked at the casing shots to verify the numbers. If you have a hole running through the 2 pinion pieces, that's say roughly 3/8" in Dia. then they are missing. These things vary a lot depending on the particular rear end and differential. In your case however, I believe you are looking for the 2 "button blocks" with the pin as illusrtated in the pic's I posted earlier.

[terrible one]

I wish I could see those pic's... I wasn't smart enough to look at them at home the other day, just looked at the casing shots to verify the numbers. If you have a hole running through the 2 pinion pieces, that's say roughly 3/8" in Dia. then they are missing. These things vary a lot depending on the particular rear end and differential. In your case however, I believe you are looking for the 2 "button blocks" with the pin as illusrtated in the pic's I posted.

That sounds about right. I guess I'm missing them. So . . . ?

[Musicman]

So, go find them... probably still with the old casing. 

[terrible one]

So, go find them... probably still with the old casing. 

Yeah, they're in there. But can I put them in easily or what? Do I need them?

[Musicman]

Yes, you need them (they protect the pinions, and also act as spacers), and yes you can put them back in... do you have the pin that holds them together, and is it any good. You can always buy new ones if necessary.

[Charger-Bodie]

I posted a picture of exactly what you need and an ebay link to a set  the spacer in youre other gear set is differant, you need the small button style like in the pic........


Also just because the play is right dont mean its ok .....the spacer makes the 2 axles ALMOST work as one, to avoid side pressure on the gears etc. in the pumpkin.

[terrible one]

So if I buy the ones on Ebay I can put them in easily? Will I need to tear the chunk down or just take it out of the case?

[Charger-Bodie]

So if I buy the ones on Ebay I can put them in easily? Will I need to tear the chunk down or just take it out of the case?

Ive put the in thru the tubes with a long magnet, BUT I would strongly recomend just pulling the center section back out .

They will just slip in the hole and then just install the pin and its ready.......you do not need to tear the gear set apart for this at all.

[Musicman]

  Like 1hot68 said... just pull the case, drop in the 2 pieces, install the pin, and your ready to go 

[terrible one]

Alright. I'm down for that. Not so bad.

Can I use the pieces from the old chunk, or is the pin and stuff a one-time-only thing? I don't mind getting the thing off of Ebay, but only if I have to. Money is tight here.

And. . . is it hard to install the pin when I take my chunk out to put it in? Do I need any special tools or anything?

Thanks guys. 

[Musicman]

No special tools reqired... If you have the old pin your all set, as long as it's not broken or rusted away.

[terrible one]

Okay, so that's the plan.

With that being said, how do I go about removing it from the old chunk? A long punch and a hammer? The pin just drives back out, correct? Then back in for the new chunk?

[terrible one]

I tried knocking what looks like the tip of the pin out with a hammer and screwdriver but it's no good. I'm sure a punch would work better, which I'll round up and try next, but am I going in the right direction here?

[terrible one]

Okay,

So I came across this thread: http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,25720.0.html

While my old chunk isn't a 489 case, it definitely has those same big round spacers in it, and the 741 case shown in the thread uses the same block as the one I have, but has a lot smaller spacers in it (the ones Brian posted the Ebay link to), which helps my confusion a bit. I was wondering why they looked so much smaller on the Ebay ad and in the diagrams! So I'll get the ones off of Ebay since the ones out of the old case aren't right anyways, and hopefully have them in the day they get here. I HATE delays!

[Musicman]

While my old chunk isn't a 489 case, it definitely has those same big round spacers in it, and the 741 case shown in the thread uses the same block as the one I have, but has a lot smaller spacers in it (the ones Brian posted the Ebay link to), which helps my confusion a bit.

Like I said earlier...

These things vary a lot depending on the particular rear end and differential. In your case however, I believe you are looking for the 2 "button blocks" with the pin.

Get the right pieces and git-r-done 

[terrible one]

While my old chunk isn't a 489 case, it definitely has those same big round spacers in it, and the 741 case shown in the thread uses the same block as the one I have, but has a lot smaller spacers in it (the ones Brian posted the Ebay link to), which helps my confusion a bit.

Like I said earlier...

These things vary a lot depending on the particular rear end and differential. In your case however, I believe you are looking for the 2 "button blocks" with the pin.

Get the right pieces and git-r-done 

Haha oops!

Ah well, all squared away now. Ebay seller said he would try to get them out today, and in the meantime I'll pull the chunk back out and get the gasket surfaces cleaned back up and ready!

[Charger-Bodie]

  Glad you're getting it nailed down now. 

[terrible one]

Haha yeah, about time huh?

A big thanks to you two. I really appreciate it.

. . . but I'm not out of the water yet!

[terrible one]

Well,

$30 and days later, I got the damn things.





Hopefully by the end of the day I'll have a roller again!

[Charger-Bodie]

Well? How did you do?

[terrible one]

Well I pulled everything back out, took the chunk out, put in the spacers without too much trouble, put it all back in and did the whole RTV thing, and by then I had gotten my u-bolts in and re-conditioned by shock mounts so I put everything back in and bolted it down, leaving me back where I was, with axles needing to go in.

Parts store had to order axle seals, one was close, another was far, close one came yesterday and I installed it as well as the drivers side axle, far one comes today and I'll HOPEFULLY put the passenger side axle in, fill it with oil, and have a roller by the end of the day.

[Musicman]

Of course this time your axle installation should be a breeze with all this new found knowledge and experience you have

Keep us posted, and that keeps us happy 

Mike

[terrible one]

Of course this time your axle installation should be a breeze with all this new found knowledge and experience you have

Keep us posted, and that keeps us happy 

Mike

You're really right. Now I know how it all works! And that's why my end play was so confusing. I guess I was right about it somewhat because without the thrust buttons the adjuster had to be screwed in WAY much and didn't look like any of the pictures, etc. but anyways it should be all good now.

Now about the seals. . . turns out what came today was the outers. I gave them Chrysler, C/R, and National part numbers this time and confirmed them, so we'll see at 8:00 tomorrow morning, and hopefully it'll all work out then. 

Post with pictures when I finish.

[terrible one]

Okay,

Axle seal went in fine.

And that's about it.

My damn thrust buttons fell loose or whatever and now one is laying in the case so it looks like I'll have to take the chunk out for the THIRD #)@(*$()@!()*@!#)(!@*()* TIME and get them back in, then do it all over again. I really feel like I can't do a damn thing on this car without it going wrong. I'm sick of this car right now.

[Charger-Bodie]

Jackson,

heres a tip for ya, Do you have a soldering gun?

If so , when you get it back out , put the buttons back in , cut a piece of electrical wire the right gauge and length and solder both ends . this will keep them jerks in place .

[Chatt69chgr]

How about a dab of heavy grease to temporarily hold them during assembly.

[terrible one]

How about a dab of heavy grease to temporarily hold them during assembly.

That's what I did! Haha.

Thanks for the tips guys. I have a soldering gun. That's what I'll do. I hate that the case is all bolted in and everything, now I have to drop the chunk out of there, clean the surfaces all up, re-do my RTV, and somehow get it up there and lined up on the studs as well as hold it in place long enough to get a bolt on. 

Perhaps I'll do it tomorrow morning.

[tecmopar]

Before you pull it all apart again and being that you have the one side in I would try this, I have done it 2 times over the years. Get a long magnet to get it out and then using 2 long wooden dowel rods you can put one in the hole of the button or using a combination of dowels and magnet, slide it in and then hold it in place with the other one as you remove the first. It takes a bit of patience and a third hand to hold a light for you but as I said , I have done it before. If you don't have a long magnet you can tape one to the end of one of the dowels, good luck.

[Musicman]

What happened to the locking pin that holds the 2 pieces together?

[terrible one]

Thanks tecmopar, I've got plenty of dowels at the house and I'll try this, just have to grab a magnet to put at the end.

Musicman,

You mean the nail looking thing? It's in there, but it sure as hell didn't lock for me! I played with them when I got them in the mail and that was just the case. No locking or anything.

[terrible one]

Oh yeah, I got it . . . a long time ago. And the car is on the ground. No leaks either (so far) 

[mikepmcs]

This thread just saved my a$$.

I am out in the garage right now because my coronet has sprung leaks, over the winter, like the water show at "The Bellagio" in Vegas.

Pulled the brakes apart, replaced wheel cylinders, pulled the axles enough to get the rear out.  Proceeded to then clean up what appears to be 172 gallons of gear oil due to the rear breaking loose prior to me getting a pan under there. After I got out of jail for EPA violations, I then proceeded to replace the pinion seal.  Got it off ebay for $12, fit like a dream.  Little nervous removing the other one but once I saw it was made in mexico I tapped it a few times and it jumped right out(get it). 
Went ahead and used a spare truck wheel I had laying around to hammer the pinion seal in(those things are pretty big) and put that back together along with the yoke and pinion snubber. In the midst of all this, the pig kind of rolled off the jack and onto the ground.  As I chased it down the driveway like a NASCAR tire changer about to get penalized I noticed a little t shaped cylinder thing near the back of the car.
I immediately remembered this thread and came back here to realize that the last person that put this in only put one thrust spacer in there as I cannot locate the other one and the pin.  I'm kind of at a stand still right now and I'll try to get one out of the 3.91 sg clutch set I have.  But I just had to come on here and thank you guys.  Priceless info on this thread and on this site.   
Ok, back to my hole.
Oh yeah after I get this back together, than I get to do an unplanned tranny fluid change due to that geyser going on up front.
Mike out!

[mikepmcs]

So i'm guessing those thrust buttons just kind of float in the middle there???
They definitely don't bottom out with both in there, that's for sure.

My 3.91 had one thrust spacer as well.

No pin, just grease holding them in there.  With the play in there, I bet I have to back that end play adjustment way off/in to get the axles to go in??

ok, back at it.  Rear ends in, pain on your backside, let me tell you. 

[terrible one]

Man, don't you love it when you find just what you were looking for in an old thread? I love all of the information here! Congrats on the diagnosis! 

[mikepmcs]

Grease held the spacers in there for me.  Axles slipped right in with no issues and everything lined up.  Adjusted the end play for just a very slight movement.  I must have tightened and backed that thing off 15 times.  OCD is a bad thing sometimes. LOL

Filled er up with Mopar heavyweight and some friction reducer. Didn't get to the tranny yet cause it got late and one of the dang air shocks let go.  Unplanned expense today but oh well.  Anyone want to buy a 67 Coronet R/T?

[ugly2u]

I too am at this stage with my Hot Rod!

I am very happy to have read this before I get into the axle this week.

Update: the axles went in, no problems...do you put gasket sealer on the black metal gasket?
Thanks!

[69rtse4spd]

Also getting ready to put axles in the DANA, after getting 3.73 put in. One more day & 11 weeks of vacation, , so should have time to get the DANA in & 6-pack on. Have to see how it goes, great info here. Thanks to all.

[oldkimmer]

Jackson,

heres a tip for ya, Do you have a soldering gun?

If so , when you get it back out , put the buttons back in , cut a piece of electrical wire the right gauge and length and solder both ends . this will keep them jerks in place .

........................................................................Use a roll pin just as the factory did............kim........

[Charger-Bodie]

Jackson,

heres a tip for ya, Do you have a soldering gun?

If so , when you get it back out , put the buttons back in , cut a piece of electrical wire the right gauge and length and solder both ends . this will keep them jerks in place .

........................................................................Use a roll pin just as the factory did............kim........

The ones Ive seen didnt have a roll pin...................................They had a pin similar to a cotter pin....................................The wire thing just plain works better.IMO..............Brian...................


PS what is with all the periods?

[Green71R/T]

Does anybody have the part # for those thrust buttons?

[John_Kunkel]

http://chucker54.stores.yahoo.net/dipithspkit.html

[Green71R/T]

Thank you.

[mopar0166]

had the same issue and took it apart for the forth time and now its dailed in good. i dunno what i did differentlly but this thread certainly helped.