Engine has moved into its new home... Update 31/7-2010 Page 4...

[Mefirst]

Short update...

Well things with the engine are not working out as easy as I hoped...

Still have some weird issues going on with the engine that I haven't quite figured out yet... For example the engine "hates" the Digital 6 box start retard function, it just wont start (E85) without having quite high initial timing (@ about 17-20* without retard, with retard I was up almost to 30*)..

Then for some odd reason the engine keeps on "losing" 3 cylinders on and off, I need to take off the valvecovers and check the pushrods/rockers on these 3 cylinders. I was going to do that earlier, but then got the engine started, so I of course thought that there was no need, but now it has to be done... And this problem with 3 cylinders running when ever they feel like it causes hell when trying to check the timing when you don't have a steady idle...

Another thing that may or causes an issue, is the engine oil I'm running. Seems that the engine wants thicker oil.. The oil pressure is 100PSI probably cause the internal tolerances of the engine are so loose + thin oil. Then again I haven't been able to run the engine long enough to get it warm, so I have no idea where the oil pressure will end up when the engine is at running temperature... I'm running Mobil One 0W-40 oil, there is/was a theory to this, but now it doesn't seem like a good idea, so I wont get into it...

The sparkplugs are also an issue that needs to be figured out. The plugs right now are two heat ranges colder. Seems that they might be to "cold". The major problem is that running on E85 there isn't enough info around, so its more or less dumb luck if you get things right with the first try... Searching the net there doesn't seem to be any real idea on what kinda plugs, heat range, spark gap, etc.. to use, same when asking around..

So as you can see converting an engine to run on E85 is a real Its more or less that you have to try out allot of things before you get it right, and by the way things are going for me right now Ill be spending allot of time in the garage trying to figure stuff out...

/Tom

[Runner]

you might want to send 440jim over at moparts a pm about the e85 stuff.  he switched his wedge over to e85 this year and he really seems to do alot of home work when he does stuff.    mabe the plug problem is the same issue as the cylenders going dead?   i would think that if a cylender was coming and going it would be an electrical issue and not a mechanical issue??  unless mabe some valves were sticking?



   good luck sorting out your issues, ive enjoyed following your biuld

[suntech]

The plugs right now are two heat ranges colder

Think some of your problem could be there. No reason for going colder by E 85.

[Mefirst]

Update 7/8-2008

Well changed out the sparkplugs for stock ones, the engine does seem to like the stock sparkplugs better. Still need to do some carb tuning though...

Maybe, and thats a BIG maybe, Ill be able to take my ride next weekend (Last track days for this season) to the track for some T&T. Id love to get at least one timeslip this season.. Ill keep you updated on how things work out...



/Tom

[Mefirst]

UPDATE 15/8-2008

Spent another day in the garage

Got my new sparkplug wires and got rid of the old and ugly MSD wires. The new wires from FireCore 50.
Spent the rest of the day and night tuning the carb, timing, etc.. together with my buddy... This is what I have learnt...

NOTE! This info holds true ONLY to MY engine setup, do NOT use this info as some sort of E85 tuning baseline. I do have the engine running and I have even driven the car, but the engine is NOT running right, its close, but still a long way from the sweet spot...

For some reason my Hemi wants the initial timing to be REALLY HIGH, the initial timing has to be +30* so the engine runs -Why I have NO idea... Less than 30* it just dies...

The engine burns fuel at the rate of a TOP FUELER It burnt up some 5.5 Gallons of E85 at a rate that you would NOT believe me if I told you !!! (I still cant believe it!).. The engine was run only at idle and up to some 3500 Rpm maximum... The jetting seems to be a tad to serious for my combo. The jets are Alcohol jets, with a diameter of 130. I'm gonna try to change them out to big fuel jets with a diameter of 99 and see what happens. The "problem" with E85 is that the engine WILL burn up everything you feed it. If you tried to feed the same amount of normal fuel, the engine would just sputter and die...

I also had several of liquid leaks.. The engine leaks oil, water and fuel Haven't exactly located the origins of the oil leak, but I get a new water leak in about 3 minutes after I have fixed the previous one.. Also the fuel pump itself leaks like a SOB, I need to pull it and inspect it closer..

On a fun and happy note

The engine has more than enough power to make a nice burn out (about 10 feet) in THIRD GEAR from idle with just stomping the throttle.. Didn't want to play more with it though cause the garage wall is only some 30 feet away from where we were working on the car and the brakes still needs some bleeding... I will try to take some video footage of the car running and when playing around with it...


Any ways... Ill continue working on the engine during the weekend and next week and keep you up to date whats going on, both good and bad....

/Tom

[Blown70]

Something is very wrong with timing?  Checked the Cap, and did you do the build?

Also, sounds like a slight big of a jet, waw that your main.  I am thinking 110 is the biggest it shoudl be with that.  If we are speaking of the same jets.

Was this carb set to run on E85 to start with your did you change it?

Best of luck.

Tom

[Mefirst]

Something is very wrong with timing?  Checked the Cap, and did you do the build?

The cap and rotor are OK...

Also, sounds like a slight big of a jet, waw that your main.  I am thinking 110 is the biggest it should be with that.  If we are speaking of the same jets.

Was this carb set to run on E85 to start with your did you change it?

The jets are Holley Alcohol jets, the smallest ones. The carb is a 1050cmf Holley Dominator rebuilt/converted to E85. The only thing original is the carb casing, everything else is new. Its basically an Alcohol carb without being a real alcohol carb (if that makes any sence).. The jets were size 93 when the carb was on top of my 440 and it ran on normal fuel, NOT E85.. The rule of thumb is that one should have the carb flow 30% more when using E85. With that % the alcohol jets should have needed to be size 136...


Me and my buddy have been trying to figure out why the timing has to be so insanely high.. Sadly we have not come up with any kind of answer... yet.... Thing is that running on pure E85 is so much different than running on normal fuel, NOTHING is even remotely the same.. Specially when running the engine with a carb, the EFI guys have things so much "easier" because they can see in real time/graphics on their laptops whats going on. One of the theories we have is that the carb has such an insanely flow that it pushes so much E85 into the cylinders that with less timing the engine just cant burn it... But the truth right now is.. -We have NO idea We are more or less figuring things out as we go...

/Tom

[Mefirst]

16/8-2008

Well spent another day in the garage. I wish I could say things are looking good, but sadly things have turned to the worse

Planed and changed out the Alcohol jets to smaller ones. Well problem is that fuel jets don't fit the alcohol metering block... Well used the old fuel metering block, first tried it out with 93 size jets, then used 99 jet size. NO go.. The carb leaks air, the air screws were even turned al the way to the bottom, still the damn engine runs, then again very lean, but still... I have no idea where the hell the carb is able to suck air from. There is NO leak between the carb and intake. So only place I can think of is cause the fuelpump is leaking a tad, the pump also sucks air into the fuel lines.. Another find is that for some weird reason there is air pressure inside the fuelbowl, there should not be air pressure in them This air pressure also causes the fuel in the fuel bowl to be dumped into the intake through the venturis, some sort of freak capillary effect... When I opened the fuel bowl needle screw, I could hear a clear sounding "hissing" noise of air escaping...

If al this was not enough. Even with the mixture screws turned al the way in, the engine "idle" climbs up to 2500Rpm, nothing I do makes the idle more normal...

I also found the origin of the oil leak. There is a tiny hole in the oil pan weld Then again thats an easy fix with "liquid metall" (I don't know what you call it over there..)

I'M so bummed out right now that I'm actually thinking about getting rid of the car, engine, the whole SOB project... Its just so frustrating when you get one thing fixed you end up with 3 or 10 new and more complicated issues...

This whole E85 thing will probably, no it is already driving me insane....

Any ways.. The plan is to get a new fuel pump. Then go back with the carb setup that "accidentally" worked, but do some real "Hardcore Racer" engineering and make use of 4 alcohol jets, make additonal threads into them and use them like a transition plug for fuel jets. These fuel jets will then be drilled to diameters from 110 up to 125 and try them out and see what happens... I have to get the fuel flow down in some way. Like I wrote in my earlier post, the fuel flow through the carb with the 132 alcohol jets is about the same as in a Top Fueler....

Come to think of it... One thing that could have screwed up everything was using the old fuel metering block, when surfing on the internet I found out that there is quite the difference between a metering block for normal fuel and E85.. It could be that the problem is this simple. Need to put the new metering block back and just play around with the jetting....


Another thing. E85 and engine oil DON'T mix, if the E85 comes into contact with oil it will start to look like a coffee/cream mix... and you might guess... -Yes I have to change the oil and filter a third time


/Tom

[firefighter3931]

Tom, be careful you don't wash down the cylinder walls with too much fuel and ruin the rings. If you really want to run e-85 send the carb out to be professionally dialed in for that fuel. 



Ron

[Mefirst]

Tom, be careful you don't wash down the cylinder walls with too much fuel and ruin the rings. If you really want to run e-85 send the carb out to be professionally dialed in for that fuel. 

Ron

Ron...

I'm some what sceptic that those "Pro dialled in" E85 carbs work right out of the box.. What these shops do is the same thing I'm doing right now, well difference is they have access to nice flow instruments, etc.. but I don't believe for a second that one would not have issues with a "carb in box" deal... And most of al I want to do it myself, if you don't do it yourself you wont learn anything.. well and I also probably have some kind of masochistic tendency

The conversion is really a simple and straight forward deal.. The part that gives you a headache is when trying to figure out how to dial in everything to get the engine to run right..

I have worked out several of the "bugs" already and I also have an understanding why things went wrong yesterday...

/Tom

[Mefirst]

Update 24/8-2008

Well Ive learnt that it is possible to use an "Alky" carburetor and run E85, but its more hassle and headaches than what you want. So I have decided to stop playing around with the carb and buy a ready made one...

The problem is that an "Alky" carb, or the problem is more the alky metering block idle circuit just flows way to much and there is no real clever way to make it flow less.. Also another tedious practicality is that the normal fuel metering block/jets have a 1/4" thread and the alky metering block/jets have 5/17" so to run smaller jets you need to make an adaptor for the smaller fuel jets. You could make this by taking a # 200 alky jet, drill the diameter a little larger, then use a 1/4-32 tap to make threads in to the alky jet, then screw the normal fuel jet into it.. BUT this is only half the problem. The main issue is the alky metering block idle circuit flow. I have not come up with any cleaver ideas on how to make it flow less.. This is why I decided to give up and just buy a ready made E85 carb.. and also I don't want to end up hurting my engine while experimenting..

But I have learnt allot about E85 and carbs so the time and effort was not entirely wasted...

Any ways here is a little info... (NOTE! These are only my own observations, and I cant say that everything is 100% correct!!!)

You can rebuild your own 4150 base carb quite easily, there are several companies who make E85 conversion kits with al parts needed. My problem was/is that nobody makes a conversion kit for a Dominator carb.. Thats why I tried to run an alky carb conversion and see if I couldn't make it work, sadly that "failed" Then again I did get the engine running but not in a way that I wanted it to... If my car was a 100% race car, then it would be ok with how the Dominator is setup, but not for a street/strip car..

Running E85 you should also run a good ignition system. The spark has to be strong!!!

E85 also carries with it liquid oxygen, there for you are able to put more fuel into the engine and make more power (kinda like with Nitrous, it also carries liquefied oxygen) The down side to this is that the engine seems to require more initial timing the more E85 you push into it, so this might be a race only option. E85 WILL make more power than normal gas cause it carries oxygen (this is why you can run E85 mixture really fat and still get a good burn inside the cylinders, normal fuel and running a fat mixture will not burn the fuel 100% and the X % would burn in the exhaust system to no use. E85 and a good igniton system youll burn everything within the cylinder where power is made), you can run higher compression (well over 15:1 comp) and it also has a cooling effect.. and it wont kill any baby Seals, etc...

Be shore that the fuel pump can handle alcohol. If the pump doesn't, it will start to leak...

This is important!!! Using E85 and you get a carb fire, its almost impossible to see the flame !!!!!!


I will continue to update this thread as the project continues....

/Tom

[jackel440]

awesome info
glad to see you have stuck it out after all the road blocks you ran into.
I can't wait to see how the new carb works out for you when you get it.

[Mefirst]

9/12-2008 Update...

Well I have rebuilt my Holley Dominator with a E85 conversion kit from QuickFuel (-Sorry, no pictures at this time).

The kit comes with everything needed to do the conversion. The only thing that caused a small headache was that it was kinda tricky to pull out the booster pins. Got them out by first tapping threads into them, then screw a small bolt into the pins, the bolt connected to a slidehammer... worked out great. The booster venturis are a pain in the a¤¤ to change out, they are file fit, it takes time and patience until you get them to fit..

Haven't tried out if the carb works or not yet, problem is that I haven't yet got my new fuelpump. The fuelpump is a black Holley (billet) that should work nicely with E85 (and alcohol)...

More updates will follow... and some pictures to....

/Tom

[firefighter3931]

Tom, it sounds like you're making excellent progress....keep up the good work. 

Looking forward to some pics ! 



Ron

[Hemidog]

Tom, it sounds like you're making excellent progress....keep up the good work. 

Looking forward to some pics ! 



Ron

[Mefirst]

 

Some info about QuickFuel and the E85 conversion kits.. http://www.quickfueltechnology.com/home_2.htm

First I have to say that I was very pleased with how I was met by the QuickFuel tech guy (the guys name is Robbie), he was very helpful answering my questions, etc..

I tried to find the Part # for the 4150 type conversion kit, but sadly I couldn't find it. The ready made 750cmf E85 carb Part # is Q-750-E85.

The Part # for the Dominator E85 conversion kit is 34-45E85. Price: 269,95$ The kit is compleat with al parts needed and also with a new set of gaskets. The installation instruction that comes with the kit is also very easy to follow, so you don't need any pro skills to do it yourself. One part I think you should add to the kit is Jet Extensions and use them in the rear metering block, Part # 22-1 (Price 4,35$), specially if your planing on dragracing.

I also used the fuel bowl extensions, these came with the Alcohol kit I tried using earlier (not needed in your daily/couple of times a year dragrace car) I used them since I'm a lazy bast..rrd and don't have the energy/interest to change out the 3/8" fuel lines in my ride to 1/2" so I opted to make use of the extensions to make the fuel bowls hold more fuel. I will upgrade the fuel lines in my ride later on.

I use 98 jets in the front and 99 jets in the rear metering block. I need to do some testing to see what jets work best, I will also be able to use my buddy's LM-1: Digital Air/Fuel Ratio Meter to get the carb dialled in once I get the car running.

Took some pics of the carb, so here they are...





I just have to comment that -Damn the carb is BIG, specially with the fuel bowl extensions




/Tom

[firefighter3931]

I just have to comment that -Damn the carb is BIG, specially with the fuel bowl extensions

Yep that is one Big Azz carb....looks like it holds more fuel than the tank out back ! 

Thanks for the pics Tom 



Ron

[Mefirst]

  Ron

Well with this Big Azz carb I most of al hope the car will Haul Azz

/Tom

[Mefirst]

Update 1/3-09

The "PIG" is ALIVE (Sadly no pics or video at this time, Ill post something later on)

Well as usual the engine put up a fight before it started to cooperate, nothing new there (I do think the car is possessed by some major Evil spirit/s, so I seriously need to get a Priest to come by and say a couple of Hail Marys and sprinkle some Holly water on it, to drive away the evil )... I did get the engine running, but not in a way, that I would be totally happy...

Noticed that the Dominator carb I have is not that good, its old and worn out, so that makes it a bitch to tune. The worn out throttle body linkage causes some issues, one major problem is that the linkage leaver doesn't want to return back al the way, messes up how the engine idles. I think I can fix that issue by using tighter return springs... Then there are some other small issues with it... I really should buy a new carb, but right now, I don't have the money to spend...

Another thing is that a locked distributor causes headache.. Its difficult to find any kind of middle ground where both the carb tuning and timing works smoothly together. Ill try out a stock distributor and see how the engine likes that...

On a happier note I have to say that -DAMN THIS ENGINE PULLS HARD even if I haven't succeeded in tuning it perfectly...
Its a totally different animal than the old 440.. SH..IT the Hemi is VIOLENT, I cant explane how it feels in any other way! When I hit the throttle hard and it starts to pull.. Its like first nothing happens, then as the rpm goes over 3000rpm al Hell breaks loose The 440 I had, it pulled nicely and smooth, like from idle and up, not the Hemi, its a Sumo wrestler barbecue, Helicopter gunship attack on Las Vegas and a Roman orgy of violens, al rolled into one

Sadly my "real" work will keep me away from the garage for some time, but Ill continue to update as things move forward again... and -Yes!!! I will do a video that contains some goofing around with the Charger...

/Tom

[max]

Update 1/3-09

On a happier note I have to say that -DAMN THIS ENGINE PULLS HARD even if I haven't succeeded in tuning it perfectly...
Its a totally different animal than the old 440.. SH..IT the Hemi is VIOLENT, I cant explane how it feels in any other way! When I hit the throttle hard and it starts to pull.. Its like first nothing happens, then as the rpm goes over 3000rpm al Hell breaks loose The 440 I had, it pulled nicely and smooth, like from idle and up, not the Hemi, its a Sumo wrestler barbecue, Helicopter gunship attack on Las Vegas and a Roman orgy of violens, al rolled into one

/Tom

my engine is basically the same way. the best discription i have read about the way a Hemi runs, they rev like a small block but pull like a big block.

[firefighter3931]

Update 1/3-09

its a Sumo wrestler barbecue, Helicopter gunship attack on Las Vegas and a Roman orgy of violens, al rolled into one

That's quite a descriptive picture ! Guess it's safe to assume you're happy with the outcome. 

Good work Tom ! 



Ron

[Mefirst]

  Ron

Yeah I am happy with how the engine feels, but I'm like I wrote, still have some issues with how it runs. The thing that causes headache is the off idle hesitation (seems like a typical Holley problem). The reason can be one of several things. Timing issue? Ive had backfires and well about 6-7 carb fires The some kind of vacuum issue or that the idle circuit does not flow enough air at idle.. etc.. etc... Ive come to the conclusion the problems I have are not just one, but a combination of different issues, timing, cam and carb related.. Hope I can figure it out

One problem is, I believe, the locked distributor. The Hemi, what I know, likes about 32* total timing, but if I run that, the idle creeps up to 2000rpm and what ever I try with the carb, I cant get it down, well I can, but then the engine dies.. I got it running kinda OK at 27* but then I have the damn off idle hesitation. Wonder if its the squirters that are to small or I'm gonna try out a stock distributor and see if that may cure some issues.. Then there is the idle, right now its at 1500rpm, drops to 1000rpm in gear. I have tried to get it down, but that will result in that the engine dies when I shift the trans into gear...

I have not noticed any problems at higher rpm, the problems occur at lower, like from idle up to about 2-2500rpm, once over the engine rews like a 2 stroke...


/Tom

[Mefirst]

Short update 18/3-09...

Still having carburetor issues. I have managed to fix most of the major bugs, but the engine is still not running right.

The major problem is the off idle hesitation/bog when I hit the throttle hard. Ive changed out the accelerator pump cams, the old ones were not in great shape, this helped some.

Ive managed to bump up the timing to 34* and the engine responded well to this.

Another problem is that once the engine warms up, its a bitch to get it to start again if you shut it down.. This also makes things interesting when tuning, had major exhaust explosions and carb fires

Well the fine tuning continues...

/Tom

[Mefirst]

Update 29/3

Well after allot of info, both good, bad and some weird it seems that the carb issues are one (or a combination) of these.

1. Squirters are to small
2. The airbleeds are way off
3. The carb needs a powervalve

So gonna put larger squirters on it and see what happens, if that doesn't help, I have to do some delicate "surgery" by drilling out the current airbleeds, make threads and change them out AND if that doesn't cure it try putting a powervalve in the main metering block, I may try out the powervalve before changing out the air bleeds, haven't decided yet...

IF nothing of this helps, I'm gonna convert the damn carb back to fuel and just make it run and sell the SOB and be done with the car hobby al together... I'm once again so tired of the whole hobby, its just one problem after the other and I have yet again lost both interest and energy....

/Tom

[firefighter3931]

Tom, as you know Dominators are a BITCH to tune for street driving. Now a well used Dommy that's been converted to E-85 is going to be even more fun....i can appreciate your frustration. 

If you're really set on running E-85 why not buy one allready set up for your application as opposed to a re-worked, tired old carb. 

If you can't get yours tweaked properly that's the best option, inmo. 



Ron