452 chambers capacity

[Nacho-RT74]

Ok just measured the 452 capacity. Correct me if I'm wrong but... WE GOT 92 CC!!!! I read somewhere was too much less!!!

If that's true, how much do I have to mill down the heads to get 80 CC or little bit less, enought to get around 9:8-10:1 compression rate with KB240 pistons and metallic headgasket ?

[694spdRT]

Sounds about right as my 346 heads measured 90cc. I have a set of 906's that were milled to 78cc's before I got them so it is possible. I don't know how much you need to mill off exactly but I would use steel shim head gaskets to gain around 0.020" over the composition ones and mill the heads that much less.

[chargerbr549]

With the open chamber heads on big block mopars you figure you need to mill about .004" per cc and since you need to reduce it by 12 cc's your looking at about .048" to mill off of the heads and around .060 off of the intake side of the heads, also pay close attention to your pushrod length and lifter preload especially if you don't have an adjustable valvetrain.

Kevin

[Chatt69chgr]

I've heard that the 452's can vary all the way between 88cc and 92cc.

[Nacho-RT74]

Ok I had this chart from the old Charger Board, that's why I did 

I already have the metallic headgasket to that.

I was thinking on keep my original valve train!!! hid tappets, stock pushrods, rockers and shaft.

I started a thread about how much tolerance I get with hid tappets and don't get worried about pushrod lenght

If I mill down heads and intake manifold... what about the valley pan ?

[T16]

Ok I had this chart from the old Charger Board, that's why I did 

I went  when I tried to google the 906 cc: http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,37288.msg409776.html#msg409776

[Nacho-RT74]

THIS IS THE REASON why amateurs like me make mistakes choosing parts!!!!!

WRONG AND NON HONEST AND EXACT INFO!!!

[Nacho-RT74]

With the open chamber heads on big block mopars you figure you need to mill about .004" per cc

Is somebody else able to confirm this info ?

[Nacho-RT74]

Somebody posted on Moparts metallic headgasket was the stock one used from fact... is that true ? EVEN ON 400s ?

[694spdRT]

Steel head gaskets were factory on the earlier 383 and 440's. Sorry, but I don't know about the 400's.

Are you working with a 400 shortblock that is already built? You could deck the block to gain some compression if you have not assembled it yet.

[Big Lebowski]

Don't mill them too much, or the intake will be a hard fit. The steel head gaskets give you more compression, the blue felpros are for 9 1/2 -10-1 motors where the pistons come up to the deck, most 400 pistons were waaaaaaaaaay low in the holes, like an 8-1 compression ratio.

[Nacho-RT74]

engine is still on car... and won't make anything on engine/block untill get all the parts ready to mount in just one week or less if posible. That's why I want to get an advance on heads job, porting and milling.

Right now I'm waiting for cam bearings ( dunno remember the brand I got ), Main bearings ( Clevite 77 ) and Piston rings, Chrysler original rings set listed for 440 020 by a Moparts member seller, what is the same bore than 400 standart, so I got them. Those parts are still or on the sea, or at customhouse, waiting to be delivered, same as my Suregrip and LOT of stuff, like new T bars etc.. etc... Still will take couple of weeks ( I hope ). Right now there is some customhouse problems down here.

Block is already slightly decked due sleeves mounted back in 2002 ( just "decked" enough to cut the sleeves )when I rebuilt engine to get back standart bore. KB240 pistons will be get in the hole on same standart bore I already have with stock pistons, after a light hone, depending of what I find in there. Just have around 10Kmiles in it since I rebuilt so I don't think will find anything weird. Sorry didn't take measures on those days. Just played LEGO, fiting and bolting parts from an engine donor parts, like all rotating train, including pistons and reusing main bearings!!!!! was my first engine without know anything about engines.

Anyway at the end deck the block is the same than mill down heads... affects the same the pushrod lenght and intake geometry. Make the block deck or mill down the head just makes sit the headgasket at diff height, but total lenght changes the same. Preffer cut the heads because I have 3 pairs ( and in case I get closed chamber heads ), PLUS I'm watching on 451 stroke in a not too long future; another reason why I got a 280/474 cam... didn't want to buy a cam every time, so tried to get one that works on both setups.

The only real problem has been THE WRONG/FALSE INFO AND SPECS around. If wasn't because that, everything was to be LOT EASIER.

KB website also posted false info about KB240 pistons. CR reference they advertise are with zero deck, and got an email from them KB240 sits 024 below the deck 

Somebody on moparts posted also the borderline on milling job to keep stock valvetrain safe, was aroun 050. If he posted that thinking on stock gasket was metallic, then I still can get around 82-84 cc chambers and get 9.5 CR at the end... good compression to work with 280/474 cam ( compairing with several camshaft brands specs, like engle K58-K60 and comp 280H ) and 166K converter with 3:55. NOT EXTREMELLY MISMATCHED!!! just a little bit.

Sorry this is the poor economy on 3rd world!!!!

[John_Kunkel]

The info provided in the charts is the factory blueprint specification so it's not really "false" it just doesn't take into consideration the errors in mass production.

All BB open chamber heads will be in the 88-92 cc range and all BB's used the steel shim gasket so the advertised compression ratio can be counted on to be at least a half-point below advertised spec.

[Nacho-RT74]

well 10cc diff from charts is a BIG difference  affecting TOO MUCH when you are making a milimetric setup, so at the end becomes in a "false" info.

Sorry John, really appreciatte you and your help but I can not agree with this in defense of advertised specs. Info is is simply true or not. You can not get a middle line on that . Maths works or not, and doesn't play with this kind of tolerances... just a WOOOOOPS, SORRY !! doesn't work on this

Beside that, is not the only case I'm posting. Keith Black Pistons advertised info is also false, when info is manipulated under some specific specs,and not even under advertised conditions, simply ommited.

[Nacho-RT74]

About the 010 head/016 intake cut relationship... the 016 I guess is on each intake to head face... right ? 

[Musicman]

well 10cc diff from charts is a BIG difference  affecting TOO MUCH when you are making a milimetric setup, so at the end becomes in a "false" info.

Sorry John, really appreciatte you and your help but I can not agree with this in defense of advertised specs. Info is is simply true or not. You can not get a middle line on that . Maths works or not, and doesn't play with this kind of tolerances... just a WOOOOOPS, SORRY !! doesn't work on this

Beside that, is not the only case I'm posting. Keith Black Pistons advertised info is also false, when info is manipulated under some specific specs,and not even under advertised conditions, simply ommited.

They cannot provide dead accurate information because we are talking about castings, and casting are not perfect. With good quality manufacturing you can get pretty close, but even with the best there will always be some fluctuation plus or minus. This is why I purchased my heads before picking up my pistons... so I could CC the heads myself and get a good starting average.
Bottom line... I'm not going to loose any sleep because my final compression ratio ended up at 10.2 or 10.9 verses my targeted 10.5.... what for, a couple of points one way or another doesn't amount to a hill a beans in a pump gas street runner.

Mike

[firefighter3931]

About the 010 head/016 intake cut relationship... the 016 I guess is on each intake to head face... right ? 

For proper alignment the ratio is .010/.012 so for example :

head (deck) surface .050 = head (intake) surface .060



Ron

[John_Kunkel]

Sorry John, really appreciatte you and your help but I can not agree with this in defense of advertised specs. Info is is simply true or not.

Don't blame the engineers who design the parts and publish the specs, blame the UAW for their sloppy work. There are plenty of other places on an automobile where the "real world" specifications differ from blueprint specs; one must realize that, in the reral world, production tolerances exist and must compensate for them.

Beside that, is not the only case I'm posting. Keith Black Pistons advertised info is also false, when info is manipulated under some specific specs,and not even under advertised conditions, simply ommited.

In the case of the 440 pistons, the KB catalog bases the compression ratios on a variety of chamber sizes;  the 90 cc selection falls dead center in the normal range of open chambers  and the 85 cc selection is typical of closed chamber heads

[Nacho-RT74]

About the 010 head/016 intake cut relationship... the 016 I guess is on each intake to head face... right ? 

For proper alignment the ratio is .010/.012 so for example :

head (deck) surface .050 = head (intake) surface .060



Ron

Oh, Ok so 010/012, not 010/016

great, that is to each head and each intake head face....

[Nacho-RT74]

In the case of the 440 pistons, the KB catalog bases the compression ratios on a variety of chamber sizes;  the 90 cc selection falls dead center in the normal range of open chambers  and the 85 cc selection is typical of closed chamber heads

yeah I know and thats good yo have an idea, but will be great they specs with the reallity of the piston TDC position. They advertise at 0 block to deck height but KB240 piston never gets 0 deck. As far I don't ask or fit by myself on engine I'll never know and everything I get to buy based on specs will be wrong and will be late to me.

If I don't start to ask, and I would think I was to get around 9.8 compression rate with given specs, doing nothing... now if I don't make any kind of job I barelly will get 9.1 CR... This is LOT... LOOOOOOT difference to choose camshaft and torque converter.

So know because false specs, I had two choices, get diff camshaft and Converter OR milldown heads. Camshafts are not on shelf down here ( just some stock pieces ) same as converters... so you know what will be my only option now.

And mill down heads makes get the limit on other specs, like rod lengh and probably still won't get what I was planing on my build. I dont have anything at hand from the shelf


SORRY didn't want to get this thread like a claiming one but this gets me very frustrated 

I have the luck that I found from the shelf this cam JUST IN CASE the MP I got ( 280/474 )really doesn't work ( what I still plan in use, but now with a back up )
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,31575.0.html

this was luck!!!

however I'm planing to ground the camshaft if find some profesional shop able to do it down here, to get reduced the intake duration, what I think is the main concern on setup I'm building, as far I learnt from comments and opinions here